[quote]matso1236 wrote:
Unless you are using some kind of gear, most people will have a higher deadlift in my opinion.[/quote]
I think most people’s Parallel Squat and Deadlift will be very close once they have come close to their genetic strength potential.
[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
Bergman wrote:
Uhhhhh, wow. My raw deadlift is almost exactly 200 pounds more than my raw squat. Sounds like I really need to work on my squat, eh?
Seems to me that once you can lift more than 2.5xBW you aren’t making excuses or mistakes any more, you really are getting the most out of your leverages (or trying to get the most out of your gear).
But if you do manage to put up a 900lb squat sometime soon by tweaking your training, tell us how you did it![/quote]
Yea, my DL is right about 2.5x, whereas my squat is more like 1.75x :-/
My geared squat is still 200 pounds off from 900, if that’s what you meant, heh. I have no idea at what point your squat and deadlift should be similar, but my pull has always been a lot better than my squat. I’ll just attribute that to my body type - long arms, medium sized torso. Oh, having a bum knee doesn’t help my squatting either, I’m sure.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
matso1236 wrote:
Unless you are using some kind of gear, most people will have a higher deadlift in my opinion.
I think most people’s Parallel Squat and Deadlift will be very close once they have come close to their genetic strength potential. [/quote]
yeah, and that still doesn’t explain the amount of 150 pound kids with 350+ pound squats and ~300 pound or less deadlifts. Some of the larger lifters squat more then they dead, it makes sense given your arguement, but the vast majority of people boasting huge squats with a low dl on T-Nation are fairly small.
[quote]Bergman wrote:
Yea, my DL is right about 2.5x, whereas my squat is more like 1.75x :-/
My geared squat is still 200 pounds off from 900, if that’s what you meant, heh.
[/quote]
I knew I was being a little generous but I underestimated how much carry-over you are getting. Man, I’ve really got to learn how to use gear…
[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
Bergman wrote:
Yea, my DL is right about 2.5x, whereas my squat is more like 1.75x :-/
My geared squat is still 200 pounds off from 900, if that’s what you meant, heh.
I knew I was being a little generous but I underestimated how much carry-over you are getting. Man, I’ve really got to learn how to use gear…
[/quote]
Why? Are you a competing powerlifter?
I think the big guys can squat more than they deadlift because since their legs are so friggin huge, it is hard to judge if they break parallel.
In my college powerlifting championship, about half the guys had squats greater than their deadlifts and I attribute that to poor judging. There is just no excuse for a 184 pound guy to have a 405 pull and a +500 squat. I don’t care what the rest of you say blah blah.
The deadlift should be more unless the person pulling has a serious biomechanical advantage or freaky small hands.
The mechanics of the deadlift put the body in a shorter range of motion and that means the ability to use heavier weights. The thighs are not breaking parallel in the deadlift. If the person’s squat is close to their deadlift, it is because they are not breaking parallel. Look at the squat and dead in this illustration above.
[quote]elano wrote:
I think the big guys can squat more than they deadlift because since their legs are so friggin huge, it is hard to judge if they break parallel.
[/quote]
Is this guy breaking parallel? I can’t see. His legs are so big.
You can’t determine which lift is the strongest lift based off what people are doing who haven’t gotten close to their genetic strength potential.
Mike Boyle, as wrong as he is, pointed out in one article that he used the Reverse Barbell Lunge over the Back Squat because some of his clients could handle more weight and make gains faster with the Reverse Barbell Lunge than they could with the back squat. Whether or not this was the right thing to do for his clients is another question entirely.
Think about the first time you touched a weight. “Most People” don’t work out. They can do Dumbbell Bench Press with 30s and Dumbbell Curls with 20s. That’s only a 10 pound difference.
Although these are more drastic examples than the Squat being larger or smaller than the deadlift, you CANNOT determine which exercise has the most potential for strength gain without looking at what the strongest people in the world are lifting - because that’s where the answer lies.
I will concede to the obvious fact that IF someone’s Raw Squat overtakes their Deadlift, it is almost always after the lifter has reached an elite level of strength and it’s because they have specialized in powerlifting. Strongmen, on the other hand, have higher Deadlifts than Raw Squats because it’s far more useful to be better at the Deadlift than the Squat in Strongman competitions.
As for other sports, I don’t think we can say since
(1) It’s not necessary to reach one’s maximal genetic strength potential outside of strength sports.
(2) Many elite level athletes just don’t deadlift so there’s no way to know for sure.
All I’m saying is if you’re going after the biggest raw total possible, then your Squat will overtake your Deadlift. Keep in mind that getting the biggest raw total possible will probably involve weighing over 275 if you are of average height.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
johnnytang24 wrote:
Do you have a source for that Tom Platz 675x15?
Harumf Harumf I don’t believe you Harumf Harumf
Have you seen the mans legs?
Think about it. If someone with a 32 inch waist can squat 335X15, then someone with 32 inch legs squatting 675X15 isn’t too crazy.
Just because most powerlifters under 242 Deadlift more than their Squat does not mean that the Squat is lower than the Deadlift. You need to look at the biggest men who have made every muscle as strong as possible in order to determine which lift has the greatest potential.
Donnie Thompson was the only Super-Heavyweight lifter I mentioned.
Pyrros doesn’t train the Deadlift heavy 3 times a week because no one strong can train the Deadlift heavy 3 times a week. If he trained the Deadlift heavy 3 times a week it wouldn’t catch up to his squat. He would just get weaker.
That’s one of the chief reasons why the Squat can be raised above the Deadlift: it’s easier to recover from Heavy Squatting than it is to recover form Heavy Deadlifting. [/quote]
Where in the article does it say he did 675x15? I didn’t read the whole thing, but I searched and couldn’t find ‘675’ at all.
Pyrros Dimas doesn’t train to be a good deadlifter at all. That’s like saying the bench has greater potential then the deadlift because a bench specialist benches more than he deadlifts.
I still don’t get why you would only consider the biggest lifters. Why would you not determine which lift has a greater potential for a given weight class?
[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
Bergman wrote:
Yea, my DL is right about 2.5x, whereas my squat is more like 1.75x :-/
My geared squat is still 200 pounds off from 900, if that’s what you meant, heh.
I knew I was being a little generous but I underestimated how much carry-over you are getting. Man, I’ve really got to learn how to use gear…
[/quote]
With a single-ply suit, briefs, knee wraps, and a monolift, I’ve done a 700 squat. With just a belt and walkout, I’ve done 450. Just the suit will add about 100 pounds. Same with the briefs. Make those double-ply and you have guys getting 300+ pounds out of their gear.
And yea, with my deadlift at 630+, I’m really starting to wonder my squat’s so low. On the other hand, I can’t imagine myself squatting anywhere near 600 anytime soon - are other people actually squatting/pulling similarly?
[quote]elih8er wrote:
Man, I’ve really got to learn how to use gear…
Why? Are you a competing powerlifter?
[/quote]
Yes
[quote]Bergman wrote:
are other people actually squatting/pulling similarly?[/quote]
Yeah, me, but my DL isn’t 630+! I’d bet if you trained DL as often as I did and trained raw squat as often as I did your DL would go backwards and your raw squat would go up. You are clearly stronger than me and our raw squat is about the same.
We shouldn’t discount the fact that you compete in a multi-ply, monolift fed so if I’m not mistaken, your training would reflect that? Your raw, walked out squat is irrelevant unless you are training it.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
elano wrote:
I think the big guys can squat more than they deadlift because since their legs are so friggin huge, it is hard to judge if they break parallel.
Is this guy breaking parallel? I can’t see. His legs are so big.
[/quote]
He is obviously breaking parallel. Still, that is just one guy. Also there is a reason why is squat is more than his dead:
He made 8 out of 9 lifts beginning with a series of beautiful deep squats making 749lbs, 804 and finally an amazing 826lbs effort which was stopped short of completion by a thigh muscle tear. In the bench press, Kirk represented well with a 446lbs opener, then a 463lbs second and then missing a 479lbs third attempt. Despite his earlier injury, Kirk opened with 705lbs in the deadlift, and successfully completed 749, and 771lbs on his second and third attempts.
So he squatted 804 and tore a muscle in his thigh. He then deadlifted 771 in the same session. I bet he could have done alot more if he did not have the injury.
I am not disagreeing with you that some guys may have a squat that is higher, but 99% of the time, a person who trains deadlifts and squats will have a higher deadlift.
[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
We shouldn’t discount the fact that you compete in a multi-ply, monolift fed so if I’m not mistaken, your training would reflect that? Your raw, walked out squat is irrelevant unless you are training it.[/quote]
Oh shoot, I just just had a really “duh” moment here. I mainly compete in WABDL, and only occasionally do USAPL and APF meets. I normally only train my squat raw, unless I’m getting close to a full-power meet. The fact that I compete in WABDL probably means that I put (at least subconsciously, maybe even consciously) a greater effort into improving my deadlift. It might be time for me to duck out of this conversation!
As for Captain Kirk, he’s just an absolute beast and I didn’t actually realize he had that decent of a bench, to be honest.
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
newbatman wrote:
buckeye girl wrote:
newbatman wrote:
my paralell squat is much higher than my deadlift…
I have no forearm grip strength…
but for you:
if your squat is lower I think you should:
1.) maybe figure out your technique better
or
2.)concentrate more on knee joint muscles in training because your deadlift being higher might have to do with back and hip joints being already stronger
Then perhaps you should focus on improving your grip strength instead of giving others advice. Having a squat that is bigger than your deadlift is not what the average raw lifter should be worried about.
I am a defensive back in american football and my grip strength is fine for that…
why the hate of my advice…is it not accurate?
If your grip is limiting how much you can pull, its limiting your strength. I can’t imagine that getting stronger wouldn’t make you a better athlete.
Generally speaking,(that is assuming there is not a HUGE gap between the sq and dl, and that the lifter doesn’t have freaky proportions, and that form is correct and so on…) having a deadlift that is higher than your squat is not an indicator of weakness. Since its normal to have a bigger deadlift, I don’t understand why you’d tell someone that they needed to get their squat higher than their dead.[/quote]
I think my idea of athleticsm differs greatly from the present paradigms in sports in general…
I think that people get their upper body too big…
but in light of what you said: this is a powerlifting discussion and not an athleticsm discussion…
sorry
[quote]elano wrote:
I think the big guys can squat more than they deadlift because since their legs are so friggin huge, it is hard to judge if they break parallel.
In my college powerlifting championship, about half the guys had squats greater than their deadlifts and I attribute that to poor judging. There is just no excuse for a 184 pound guy to have a 405 pull and a +500 squat. I don’t care what the rest of you say blah blah.
The deadlift should be more unless the person pulling has a serious biomechanical advantage or freaky small hands.
The mechanics of the deadlift put the body in a shorter range of motion and that means the ability to use heavier weights. The thighs are not breaking parallel in the deadlift. If the person’s squat is close to their deadlift, it is because they are not breaking parallel. Look at the squat and dead in this illustration above.[/quote]
This is kinda off topic, but why the hell are those little men on the cover of Starting Strength looking at the ground and letting their chests drop on squat and dead?
[quote]newbatman wrote:
I think my idea of athleticsm differs greatly from the present paradigms in sports in general…
I think that people get their upper body too big…
but in light of what you said: this is a powerlifting discussion and not an athleticsm discussion…
sorry [/quote]
When it comes to lifting, there is no such thing as too big. 
I do think that your “typical lifter” tends to neglect the lower body.
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
This is kinda off topic, but why the hell are those little men on the cover of Starting Strength looking at the ground and letting their chests drop on squat and dead?[/quote]
They’re avoiding thoracic and cervical hyperextension. Notice how their backs are in a perfectly straight line? AFAIK, that’s the supposed to be the “perfect” way to perform a squat or deadlift, even though I can’t think of a single person who does them that way.
[quote]Bergman wrote:
buckeye girl wrote:
This is kinda off topic, but why the hell are those little men on the cover of Starting Strength looking at the ground and letting their chests drop on squat and dead?
They’re avoiding thoracic and cervical hyperextension. Notice how their backs are in a perfectly straight line? AFAIK, that’s the supposed to be the “perfect” way to perform a squat or deadlift, even though I can’t think of a single person who does them that way.[/quote]
I’ll have to use that line next time I get yelled at for letting my chest drop or failing to drive my head back into the bar.