Big Guys Don't Squat and Deadlift

Training
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[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but one of the reasons that squats and DL’s may not be the best exercises for bodybuilders is that they generally give faulty feedback on strength levels. There are a lot of variables in life (stress, food, timing, sleep, relationships) and when you compound this with the average bodybuilder lifestyle, you could imagine that it gets pretty hectic from day to day.

The thing about things like Squats and DL’s is that they are so technique specific, meaning that if something is “off” on a given day is becomes compounded by the nature of the lift. Now if we campare that to some machine, or isolation equivalent, we remove all the shitty side variable that may influence strength.

The best example that I can give is someone in contest prep. At the end of those 12 weeks, their powerlifting total may go down upwards of 200lbs, but how much do you think their leg extension dropped? Or their Smith machine shrug? The truth is that these exercises are more constant in that they give a more pure indicator of strength gain or loss. In that sense, why bother with exercise that are subject to things like bodyweight?

I dunno, it’s just a theory I have, not much more. It would be nice to see someone record their compound and isolation lifts to see whether this is true. [/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Personally, I focus on powerlifting. It’s known that for squat and bench that any mass increase would help with you lifting more weight simply due to the weight of the bar spread over a larger cross section. I notice a lot of strength loss on these 2 lifts when cutting and similarly, they rebound back like crazy even when just gaining back water weight. Isolation exercises on the other hand don’t really change that much in strength.

Also, I’d like to blame Rippetoe for the dogma of “people who don’t squat are pussies.” I made decent gains on Starting Strength when I first started lifting; it’s a decent program, but it really isn’t the only way to do things. Unfortunately, a lot of college kids who did a bit of research online typically really get into the Rippetoe dogma and believe that anyone who doesn’t squat 3 time a week is a pussy or on steroids.

Personally I squat mainly for jumping ability and never do any isolation leg work. I’ve gone from about 1x bw to over 2x bw squats and my quads stayed the exact same size and I’ve never felt any pump in my legs during my workouts. My vertical has gone up quite a bit, but there was basically no hypertrophy. So if your goal is bodybuilding, squats might be beneficial, but they definitely aren’t going to be the best for everyone for building mass.

82

[quote]cct wrote:
Personally I squat mainly for jumping ability and never do any isolation leg work. I’ve gone from about 1x bw to over 2x bw squats and my quads stayed the exact same size and I’ve never felt any pump in my legs during my workouts. My vertical has gone up quite a bit, but there was basically no hypertrophy. So if your goal is bodybuilding, squats might be beneficial, but they definitely aren’t going to be the best for everyone for building mass.[/quote]

  1. Same as saying “my bench went from 100lbs to 200lbs but I had no tricep/pec/shoulder development.”

  2. Your quads havent increased while squatting AND exercising? I am assuming you play tons of baskeball since you are so concerned about your vertical jump.

  3. Your squat increased 150lbs~ and you dont see any difference in your body ?? Maybe you should start taking some before/after pics. I am sure your upperbody and glutes, the least have some changes.

83

[quote]DSSG wrote:
Let’s move onto tall lifters. Why do tall lifters bitch about the squat so much? I am longer limbed for my height (from what I have been told for years) and find no issues in squatting other than it has less advantageous leverages compared to deadlifting. There is no issues hitting depth, and no issues with my quads working if I want them to. [/quote]

There is also total distance moved meaning you put more energy which could be used elsewhere. Regardless of limb length a taller person moves the bar a longer distance.

84

[quote]DSSG wrote:
Let’s move onto tall lifters. Why do tall lifters bitch about the squat so much? I am longer limbed for my height (from what I have been told for years) and find no issues in squatting other than it has less advantageous leverages compared to deadlifting. There is no issues hitting depth, and no issues with my quads working if I want them to. [/quote]

pride.

if you spend all day at 24hr fitness (the most general cross section of the weight training population), you probably will not see a single good repetition on the squat, bench press, or chin bar. Guys care more about DEMONSTRATING their strength (or lack thereof) to others or even to themselves more so than they do improving.

pride.

A tall guy is used to winning on the field, in the ring, etc, but really hates to be seen squatting a light barbell to depth. He will then use all the mental gymnastics at his disposal to convince himself as to why he doesn’t need (or can’t) to squat to depth or even squat at all. This is too bad because we all know that whatever you suck at will help your physique and performance the most.

as Marcellus Wallace put it, “you might feel a slight sting. That’s pride fuckin’ with you. Fuck pride! Pride only hurts, it never helps. You fight through that shit.”

85

[quote]Swolle wrote:
You may find that many times these arent done for a few reasons… first and foremost for a bodybuilder many simply calculate the risk reward… I squatted heavy for years. I made my best gains where my legs were concerned doing othere exercises. I still front squat a lot but it is just safer for my low back and its not my staple leg exercise. Second there have been some excellent pro bodybuilders who dont utilize them in their training at all (monkey see monkey do)… The above applies to squats… As for deadlifts much of that same applies and lets face it they just arent a staple movement for a lot of people. I do them I have also forcefully removed my bicep from my ulna in a not so pleasent experience. I think those of you who say they dont do them because they are hard are probably severel thing 1) Have never squatted the amounts that many Pros have early in their careers and 2) trying to say that because you do somehow there is no other way. Remember youre in the bodybuildig section. Great bodies do not need to be built with squats and deads. Its a fact… If you love these movements fine but they arent the be all end all that every pimple face teenager would believe.
[/quote]

I think you meant your biceps detached from your radius; not ulna.

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[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]alternate wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
Here’s what I’m wondering. Take a hypothetical guy for a second. He’s fuckin enormous, and his legs and back are massive, and he never squats or deadlifts. He thinks he doesn’t need them, because he was able to build himself so well with other exercises given, lets say, we’ll above average genetics. But isn’t it possible that if he were to just add them into his training that he would take himself to the next level and get even better?[/quote]

Yeh that’s one question.

Another would be: take a hypothetical situation for a second. Everyone’s obsessed with the rear-foot-elevated split-squat, and the dogmatic brosef advice is that if you’re not rear-foot-elevated split-squatting you’re not on a ‘real’ program, and you’re not a ‘real’ man. Now, if everyone trained the shit out of this movement instead of the squat, would they end up just as jacked?[/quote]

Except that we have the results of 50+ years of lifters/athletes using the squat and deadlift as their primary posterior chain compound movements. There has been no shortage of ‘innovators’ during that period. Telling young lifters that they can get big and strong without squatting and deadlifting is very appealling[much like penis-grow cream]. Perhaps one day we will have many advanced lifters with good wheels that never used the squat and/or deadlift; however at this point we do not. [/quote]

Exactly, since most people throughout the years have focused on squats/deadlifts and use split squats/lunges as accessories, and not the other way round, the evidence is bound to be bias in favor of squats/deadlifts.

Now that people such as Boyle and Ben Bruno are focusing on using the split squats/lunges as a main rather than accessory movement - we will slowly start to see how effective they are for hypertrophy and/or athletic development.

For a scientific and non-dogmatic approach to strength training, I recommend every check out the Strength Of Evidence podcast. Particularly Episode 2: To Squat Or Not To Squat. You may have your eyes opened. I have nothing against squats or deadlifts, I’m merely open to other ways and it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re working less hard and it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a pussy. The evidence is beginning to support that.

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[quote]Swolle wrote:I made my best gains where my legs were concerned doing othere exercises.
[/quote]

Would you mind mentioning which other exercises you found best for leg hypertrophy?

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This thread has turned into every goober that Squats and DL claiming they are the foundation when they are small, ironic.

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The biggest guy at my gym is about 290 pounds and pretty lean. He does squats and deads but he does strongman comps. He also curls more than I bench and makes me feel like a big wuss.:slight_smile:

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[quote]optheta wrote:
This thread has turned into every goober that Squats and DL claiming they are the foundation when they are small, ironic.[/quote]

Wait what? Like, the best developed dudes in this thread have all said they either still do, or used to squat and deadlift heavy.

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
^ yeah, I can’t think of any lift that would help in the athletic arena moreso than the squat [/quote]

I’d take DL over squat every time if I was somehow only allowed to pick one to develop athletes.

91

Guys, if you have the right genetics for a particular muscle group (e.g muscle groups that grows easily when placed under tension regardless of exercise used, good muscle insertions/shape) then you may even skip direct training of said muscle group with it still remaining one of your strongest points in your physique. FWIW, I, do not think any one exercise is necessary to spark growth in whatever muscle group.

For example because of favourable muscle insertions in my quads, I have a good amount of leeway of skipping squats or leg training altogether, or throwing a few leg extensions/curls, stiff leggies with 40kg here and there with my quads still overshadowing my upper body for which my genetics are mediocre and I have to be really diligent with in order to make any kind of gains.

Take home point: With the right genetics, you can grow/maintain an impressive physique/bodypart not because of what you do, but rather in spite of.

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The only way you could tell if squats are better than other exercises for leg development for a given genetic potential is if you took two identical twins, fed them the same diet, gave them the same job, gave them the same workout except one was using different types of squats and the other was using different types of split squats/leg presses/lunges - kept them on this workout for years, and then recorded the difference in lower body muscle mass.

No-one has ever done this study, so no-one is sure. Yet everyone claims to have a definite opinion one way or another (usually in favor of squats).

93

[quote]alternate wrote:
The only way you could tell if squats are better than other exercises for leg development for a given genetic potential is if you took two identical twins, fed them the same diet, gave them the same job, gave them the same workout except one was using different types of squats and the other was using different types of split squats/leg presses/lunges - kept them on this workout for years, and then recorded the difference in lower body muscle mass.

No-one has ever done this study, so no-one is sure. Yet everyone claims to have a definite opinion one way or another (usually in favor of squats).[/quote]

your posts are always shit.

94

[quote]alternate wrote:
The only way you could tell if squats are better than other exercises for leg development for a given genetic potential is if you took two identical twins, fed them the same diet, gave them the same job, gave them the same workout except one was using different types of squats and the other was using different types of split squats/leg presses/lunges - kept them on this workout for years, and then recorded the difference in lower body muscle mass.

No-one has ever done this study, so no-one is sure. Yet everyone claims to have a definite opinion one way or another (usually in favor of squats).[/quote]

True. All the anecdotes mentioned are of big guys who started with squatting as staple, then went on to ditch them and have huge legs. There simply isn’t a large enough sample size out there of guys who, first of all, even prioritized leg training in the beginning, and, secondly, decided to do so via exclusively machines. Since people like to throw out random anecdotes, I do have a friend who as a natty started off without free weight squats or deads and developed 30 in thighs. He destroyed the hell out of his legs every session, ultra high reps, drop sets, rest pause, etc.

But it isn’t always about building up enough anecdotal evidence. What about mechanics? Can a broski build up huge biceps without doing rows or chin ups? Sure why not? Machines tend to hammer the target muscle directly, while squats do not. Why are they automatically more advantageous now?

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[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DSSG wrote:
Let’s move onto tall lifters. Why do tall lifters bitch about the squat so much? I am longer limbed for my height (from what I have been told for years) and find no issues in squatting other than it has less advantageous leverages compared to deadlifting. There is no issues hitting depth, and no issues with my quads working if I want them to. [/quote]

There is also total distance moved meaning you put more energy which could be used elsewhere. Regardless of limb length a taller person moves the bar a longer distance.[/quote]
… From the 6’5" guy… But wouldn’t the same limb length equal out to the same distance moved, and taller guys can be much heavier which assists absolute strength? Wouldn’t the 6 feet tall guy with thirty six inch long legs be at a disadvantage from the 6.5 feet person with equal limb length but greater torso and has much more total mass which would be bigger/better base?

Taller lifters also pull from a longer distance, but are said to have better pulls, and most are with proportions ideal for pulling but terrible for squatting and benching (which I have).

I think I’m going to agree with cueball that it is mostly just ego and excuses for the squat.

96

[quote]DSSG wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DSSG wrote:
Let’s move onto tall lifters. Why do tall lifters bitch about the squat so much? I am longer limbed for my height (from what I have been told for years) and find no issues in squatting other than it has less advantageous leverages compared to deadlifting. There is no issues hitting depth, and no issues with my quads working if I want them to. [/quote]

There is also total distance moved meaning you put more energy which could be used elsewhere. Regardless of limb length a taller person moves the bar a longer distance.[/quote]
… From the 6’5" guy… But wouldn’t the same limb length equal out to the same distance moved, and taller guys can be much heavier which assists absolute strength? Wouldn’t the 6 feet tall guy with thirty six inch long legs be at a disadvantage from the 6.5 feet person with equal limb length but greater torso and has much more total mass which would be bigger/better base?

Taller lifters also pull from a longer distance, but are said to have better pulls, and most are with proportions ideal for pulling but terrible for squatting and benching (which I have).

I think I’m going to agree with cueball that it is mostly just ego and excuses for the squat. [/quote]

As someone who is 6’2" with longer arms/legs then are proportional to his body, unfavorable leverages makes Squats not really a leg exercise, but really a low back/hip/leg/glute lift. Less then optimal leverages = have to concentrate on form more. And often times it’s other BP’s, not your legs, that limit weight you can use. So something like Leg Press would allow a taller lifter to not worry about form, concentrate strictly on just destroying his legs, which would probably be better for growth.

Saying that, I do still Squat 3x a week, alternating Front and Back, Oly style (way below parallel), just because I want strong legs.

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In my experience people have shitty legs because they don’t put in the required work / intensity and not because they don’t squat. Of course, squats is the first exercise these people skip.

I bet you could build badass legs with using leg press instead of squats, if you do it properly.

If I wanted to build my legs more now, I would focus a lot more on leg presses than squats.

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I dont flat barbell bench press anymore, havent for over a year. Does that mean I dont bench press? Maybe not flat and with a barbell but I still do the movement on inclines, with dumbells and on HS and cable machines.

I could understand if we are talking that these ‘big guys’ never do a squat or dead variation but I am sure they do some form of hack squat, romanin/stiff legged etc. I dont think anyone can get or stay big ignoring a major movement path like that, but they do a variation of it.

I also think there is a risk/reward factor. When you are big you can most likely move a lot of weight which increases the chance for injury.(that’s why i dont BB bench flat. Already ripped my pec twice, dont care to try it for a third) The Barbell Back Squat and traditional Barbell Deadlift are not the only things out there, just tools.(I personally prefer snatch grip deads to conventional now and I used to dead 495 at 170. I get better results using 185 with a snatch grip for hypertropy and dont have to risk tweaking something trying to rep out 300+ on conventional.)

Think Thibs examble of using the dead squat, and Prof X using HS for chest is a great example.

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[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
In my experience people have shitty legs because they don’t put in the required work / intensity and not because they don’t squat. Of course, squats is the first exercise these people skip.

I bet you could build badass legs with using leg press instead of squats, if you do it properly.

If I wanted to build my legs more now, I would focus a lot more on leg presses than squats. [/quote]

This post got me thinking:

Honestly, I’ve sometimes wondered whether my preference for squats w/r/t how exhausted I feel after them vis-a-vis even leg press is related to the fact that intensity is in some respects forced on me when I’m squatting, in a way that it’s not when I’m leg pressing. I feel exhausted after leg press, but it’s not the same kind of exhausted as after squatting, particularly psychologically.

When I’m squatting, my whole body is engaged with the 400+lbs on my back, causing something of a ‘fight or flight’ response to kick in. I don’t really know that I have quite that reaction with leg press, even if it is a very heavy weight. I feel like I train very hard on leg press but that I never reach that ‘edge’ like I do on squats. Maybe I reach an edge, but it just doesn’t feel quite the same physiologically.

Perhaps it’s because the whole body is to some extent engaged, but I just find myself so completely psychologically and physiologically spent after DLing (including SLDL) and squatting compared to leg press or ham curls or other machine exercises.

I currently do legs twice a week, and I’m thinking about nixing squats one of the days to see whether focusing on leg press helps me bolster my intensity in a way that will feel similar to how I feel after squatting.

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I have found that if your on the taller side (6’2") regular old back squat gives you turnip thighs. All the meat is in the upper portion near the hip with little down near the knee. At one point I could one rep max 550 and my legs looked big but unimpressive due to this.

After going to front squats, sissy squats, and 60 degree hack squat machine I have managed to develop that lower portion with puny weights compared to my previous maxes in HS football on the back squat