Well, if I remember correctly, no less an authority than Stuart McGill has said that deadlifts and squats are not for everyone, that really only a minority have the combination of limb lengths and preparation for seriously doing these lifts. Mike Boyle is also on record against squatting for everyone. These guys are hired by top athletes, so I don’t think they are just flapping their mouths for the sake of it.
[quote]Kooopa wrote:
[quote]ChrisWaddle wrote:
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]ChrisWaddle wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
It’s because outside this little ego driven world of TNation brosefs, seasoned lifters know that it’s about finding what works and not appealing to some mentality that squatting and deadlifting is necessary just to maintain your mancard. [/quote]
I have found this to be true, I started with squatting and deadlifting and just never really got much out of them.
High rep squatting was certainly better for me than low rep/heavy weight but I just seem to get much better stimulation of leg presses etc.
Deadlifting was probably never the best idea for me anyway as my back is shot to pieces, but I gave it the good old college try and just got back pain from it.[/quote]
you were deadlifting wrong and DEFINITELY squatting wrong…[/quote]
More than likely. I’m tall 6’3, and just never felt right squatting.
[/quote]
lol yeah i bet strongmen who are probably on average taller than you never squat and deadlift cuz “it just doesnt feel right maaan”… please, just admit that either its too exhausting for you or you never bothered fixing technique ever.[/quote]
It’s just that my testicles are so huge that every time I squat it’s like sitting on a giant space hopper.
the only reason I DL is so that incase something heavy falls on a girl I can save her.
Other than that I feel like it does very little…probably nothing for my aesthetic goals
[quote]seekonk wrote:
Well, if I remember correctly, no less an authority than Stuart McGill has said that deadlifts and squats are not for everyone, that really only a minority have the combination of limb lengths and preparation for seriously doing these lifts. Mike Boyle is also on record against squatting for everyone. These guys are hired by top athletes, so I don’t think they are just flapping their mouths for the sake of it. [/quote]
Anyone who’s not completely ignorant and dogmatic knows that squats, deadlifts, and a bunch of other exercises (all of them?) aren’t for everyone. I do believe you can improve posture, flexibility and do all the work necessary to be able to safely perform those lifts.
Why would you though, if you have other alternatives? Seems that for all the bros out there that come up with a million excuses to avoid deadlifting and squatting the trend is shifting to dudes who insist on squatting and DLing with minimal progress when they could get much more out of other movements.
[quote]Kooopa wrote:
lol yeah i bet strongmen who are probably on average taller than you never squat and deadlift cuz “it just doesnt feel right maaan”… please, just admit that either its too exhausting for you or you never bothered fixing technique ever.[/quote]
This is the reasoning I have a problem with. What if one, instead of fixing a particular exercise’s technique, opts for performing an exercise in which he doesn’t need to work extensively on technique and is more enjoyable and more productive?
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
IMO the truth us that most people (big, small, skinny, fat) don’t deadlift and squat in the gym because they are fucking hard exercises. [/quote]
^^good point.
They don’t have to be the focal point if your day but even as an accessory lift they will provide a benefit.
Squatting and deadlifting properly requires a decent-good (depends on your perspective) amount of flexibility and coordination which, frankly, many lifters just don’t poses.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
if someone does squats and deadlifts, but feels them primarily in hamstrings and glutes, vs target muscles like the back and quads, does it make them a pussy if they do leg presses and tbar rows instead so that they actually feel the target muscles? no, theyre doing what works for them. i dont get some of the arguments here that praise squats and deadlifts like theyre the king of all exercises.
yes, ive pulled a 455lbs deadlift and squatted 315lbs for reps regularly and since dropping them and doing exercises where i can feel the target muscle moving, ive progressed much more.[/quote]
The question that remains is…if you would be progressing at all without the time spent working the SQ & DL.
I’m certain that there are lifters with wheels that have never squatted and deadlifted, but like big lotto winners, in 27 years of training I have never met one. [/quote]
i dont know. all i can say is my squat did drop by a plate per side, down to 225lbs for reps, because i stopped doing them for weeks, yet my legs are still the same size maybe even a little more defined from really concentrating on extensions and hack squats and squeezing the shit of the the muscle through the whole movement.
Just throwing this out there, but one of the reasons that squats and DL’s may not be the best exercises for bodybuilders is that they generally give faulty feedback on strength levels. There are a lot of variables in life (stress, food, timing, sleep, relationships) and when you compound this with the average bodybuilder lifestyle, you could imagine that it gets pretty hectic from day to day.
The thing about things like Squats and DL’s is that they are so technique specific, meaning that if something is “off” on a given day is becomes compounded by the nature of the lift. Now if we campare that to some machine, or isolation equivalent, we remove all the shitty side variable that may influence strength.
The best example that I can give is someone in contest prep. At the end of those 12 weeks, their powerlifting total may go down upwards of 200lbs, but how much do you think their leg extension dropped? Or their Smith machine shrug? The truth is that these exercises are more constant in that they give a more pure indicator of strength gain or loss. In that sense, why bother with exercise that are subject to things like bodyweight?
I dunno, it’s just a theory I have, not much more. It would be nice to see someone record their compound and isolation lifts to see whether this is true.
[quote]FattyFat wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
if someone does squats and deadlifts, but feels them primarily in hamstrings and glutes, vs target muscles like the back and quads, does it make them a pussy if they do leg presses and tbar rows instead so that they actually feel the target muscles? no, theyre doing what works for them. i dont get some of the arguments here that praise squats and deadlifts like theyre the king of all exercises.
yes, ive pulled a 455lbs deadlift and squatted 315lbs for reps regularly and since dropping them and doing exercises where i can feel the target muscle moving, ive progressed much more.[/quote]
The question that remains is…if you would be progressing at all without the time spent working the SQ & DL.
I’m certain that there are lifters with wheels that have never squatted and deadlifted, but like big lotto winners, in 27 years of training I have never met one. [/quote]
This thread is asinine.
That’s why I don’t mind imparting my own esoteric take on it.
I think I have a rather unique perspective on this: I had very muscular legs before even touching a barbell (and a tiny upper body in comparison). Of course, I mainly focused on my upper body lifts to correct that asymmetry. Later on in my training career, I was bitten by the tabata bug and incorporated squats as a conditioning tool. I accidentally became exceptionally good at this and this made me tougher. It’s not that I was training or looking like a wuss before, but my training really went to the next level after having spent time ‘under the squat bar’, as it were.
I haven’t been squatting since 2010, the toughness remained, but I sorely miss squats. There’s something to be said for spinal loading as done with squats. It’s also a very self-affirming experience: I know of no other exercise that allowed me to keep going for one more rep, one more rep, one more rep … in between deep breaths, of course.
[/quote]
Well said. You can definitely get big quads from doing leg extensions, but squats/deads are kind of like the father figure of the gym that’ll kick your ass and toughen you up.
[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
…praise squats and deadlifts like theyre the king of all exercises.
[/quote]
I think it’s worth mentioning that exercise is not necessarily bodybuilding. I would definitely argue that some high rep, heavy squats or deadlifts are some serious exercises. Maybe not always for hypertrophy, but if you want your heart pumping, it’s hard to compete with them.
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
[quote]FattyFat wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
if someone does squats and deadlifts, but feels them primarily in hamstrings and glutes, vs target muscles like the back and quads, does it make them a pussy if they do leg presses and tbar rows instead so that they actually feel the target muscles? no, theyre doing what works for them. i dont get some of the arguments here that praise squats and deadlifts like theyre the king of all exercises.
yes, ive pulled a 455lbs deadlift and squatted 315lbs for reps regularly and since dropping them and doing exercises where i can feel the target muscle moving, ive progressed much more.[/quote]
The question that remains is…if you would be progressing at all without the time spent working the SQ & DL.
I’m certain that there are lifters with wheels that have never squatted and deadlifted, but like big lotto winners, in 27 years of training I have never met one. [/quote]
This thread is asinine.
That’s why I don’t mind imparting my own esoteric take on it.
I think I have a rather unique perspective on this: I had very muscular legs before even touching a barbell (and a tiny upper body in comparison). Of course, I mainly focused on my upper body lifts to correct that asymmetry. Later on in my training career, I was bitten by the tabata bug and incorporated squats as a conditioning tool. I accidentally became exceptionally good at this and this made me tougher. It’s not that I was training or looking like a wuss before, but my training really went to the next level after having spent time ‘under the squat bar’, as it were.
I haven’t been squatting since 2010, the toughness remained, but I sorely miss squats. There’s something to be said for spinal loading as done with squats. It’s also a very self-affirming experience: I know of no other exercise that allowed me to keep going for one more rep, one more rep, one more rep … in between deep breaths, of course.
[/quote]
Well said. You can definitely get big quads from doing leg extensions, but squats/deads are kind of like the father figure of the gym that’ll kick your ass and toughen you up.[/quote]
Broscience.
Here’s what I’m wondering. Take a hypothetical guy for a second. He’s fuckin enormous, and his legs and back are massive, and he never squats or deadlifts. He thinks he doesn’t need them, because he was able to build himself so well with other exercises given, lets say, we’ll above average genetics. But isn’t it possible that if he were to just add them into his training that he would take himself to the next level and get even better?
[quote]csulli wrote:
Here’s what I’m wondering. Take a hypothetical guy for a second. He’s fuckin enormous, and his legs and back are massive, and he never squats or deadlifts. He thinks he doesn’t need them, because he was able to build himself so well with other exercises given, lets say, we’ll above average genetics. But isn’t it possible that if he were to just add them into his training that he would take himself to the next level and get even better?[/quote]
Yeh that’s one question.
Another would be: take a hypothetical situation for a second. Everyone’s obsessed with the rear-foot-elevated split-squat, and the dogmatic brosef advice is that if you’re not rear-foot-elevated split-squatting you’re not on a ‘real’ program, and you’re not a ‘real’ man. Now, if everyone trained the shit out of this movement instead of the squat, would they end up just as jacked?
[quote]alternate wrote:
Yeh that’s one question.
Another would be: take a hypothetical situation for a second. Everyone’s obsessed with the rear-foot-elevated split-squat, and the dogmatic brosef advice is that if you’re not rear-foot-elevated split-squatting you’re not on a ‘real’ program, and you’re not a ‘real’ man. Now, if everyone trained the shit out of this movement instead of the squat, would they end up just as jacked?[/quote]
No they wouldn’t.
the main reason you don’t see people do these lifts is because they are hard.
You may find that many times these arent done for a few reasons… first and foremost for a bodybuilder many simply calculate the risk reward… I squatted heavy for years. I made my best gains where my legs were concerned doing othere exercises. I still front squat a lot but it is just safer for my low back and its not my staple leg exercise. Second there have been some excellent pro bodybuilders who dont utilize them in their training at all (monkey see monkey do)… The above applies to squats… As for deadlifts much of that same applies and lets face it they just arent a staple movement for a lot of people. I do them I have also forcefully removed my bicep from my ulna in a not so pleasent experience. I think those of you who say they dont do them because they are hard are probably severel thing 1) Have never squatted the amounts that many Pros have early in their careers and 2) trying to say that because you do somehow there is no other way. Remember youre in the bodybuildig section. Great bodies do not need to be built with squats and deads. Its a fact… If you love these movements fine but they arent the be all end all that every pimple face teenager would believe. \
[quote]alternate wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
Here’s what I’m wondering. Take a hypothetical guy for a second. He’s fuckin enormous, and his legs and back are massive, and he never squats or deadlifts. He thinks he doesn’t need them, because he was able to build himself so well with other exercises given, lets say, we’ll above average genetics. But isn’t it possible that if he were to just add them into his training that he would take himself to the next level and get even better?[/quote]
Yeh that’s one question.
Another would be: take a hypothetical situation for a second. Everyone’s obsessed with the rear-foot-elevated split-squat, and the dogmatic brosef advice is that if you’re not rear-foot-elevated split-squatting you’re not on a ‘real’ program, and you’re not a ‘real’ man. Now, if everyone trained the shit out of this movement instead of the squat, would they end up just as jacked?[/quote]
Except that we have the results of 50+ years of lifters/athletes using the squat and deadlift as their primary posterior chain compound movements. There has been no shortage of ‘innovators’ during that period. Telling young lifters that they can get big and strong without squatting and deadlifting is very appealling[much like penis-grow cream]. Perhaps one day we will have many advanced lifters with good wheels that never used the squat and/or deadlift; however at this point we do not.
^ yeah, I can’t think of any lift that would help in the athletic arena moreso than the squat
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:
[quote]ESX wrote:
One thing i have noticed when the big guys do squat is they never go that low. Even watch videos of IFBB guys and they very rearly go to parallel. Higher reps and keep it on the quads![/quote]
Yeah, I have seen Kain and Heath videos of them stopping above parallel and below lockout.
I suspect the big guys have already put in their time and have simply found better ways to stimulate desired muscle groups.[/quote]
Basically this. I haven’t done a barbell squat since I was in the military. I found other movements that felt better and actually produced more results for me. I like the leg press and the squat machine.
You do what works…not what is most popular.[/quote]
the only place that squats and deadlifts are “popular” are on sites like this, and maybe private powerlifting/weightlifting gyms.
the vast majority of commercial gyms i frequent, there are lines to get into the 5 different leg press/squat machines and cobwebs in the squat rack and a collection of gym bags and kettle bells on the deadlift platform.
i seriously doubt as many people on this site really put the time into squats and pulls as they say.
Let’s move onto tall lifters. Why do tall lifters bitch about the squat so much? I am longer limbed for my height (from what I have been told for years) and find no issues in squatting other than it has less advantageous leverages compared to deadlifting. There is no issues hitting depth, and no issues with my quads working if I want them to.
How are they so big without squatting or deadlifting?
Possibilities:
1)They built the foundation earlier.
2)steroids - 3 years of working at 24hr fitness - ALL of the really big guys (client or trainer) were current/ex powerlifters or on gear (or both). I know this because they were very open about it.
3)big parents
4)other stuff
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my uncle got VERY big working on the tobacco farm, but in reality, he was deadlifting stuff every day (just not a barbell). He would also farmer’s walk two 200lb bags of seed for over 100m at the time (one hell of a mass building exercise that doesn’t fit in the squat/deadlift grouping) Only during the off season could he dismantle the tractor to use the axle/tires for more traditional weightlifting exercises…
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my buddy developed huge legs playing catcher in the rockies organization (minor league). Even though he doesn’t play anymore, his legs maintain with minimal work.