[quote]G.O.A.T wrote:
There is still time for you. Read the articles on this page, read the forums, and you will save yourself from wasting valuable training years following Chek’s approach to wellbeing.[/quote]
Put up some useful information yourself and THEN you can start calling me “grasshopper”.
By any chance, did you happen to notice the brand and condition of the ball?
[quote]CHEKonIT wrote:
But if your goal is nearly ANTHING else, HS Machines will just hinder your development. I hate to keep bringing it up, but they’ve just got NO FUNCTIONAL CARRYOVER!
[/quote]
Oh shit. This could go on for a while! Before CHEKonIT gives us his version of what is functional.
Have a look at this link and we will all see where he and Chek are coming from.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
I don’t want to be on the ball with heavy db’s when I exceed it’s max capacity and it blows. Imagine 270lbs Prof X with 120lb db’s. Can the ball support that? I don’t know. I know a bench can. The ball has it’s place, but I think it’s an unnecessary gadget.
[/quote]
If it takes building up the weight slowly so you can get used to the weights at a low RM, it’ll be worth it. There is definitely a chance of injury, it’s up to an individual’s intelligence and patience to minimise that risk. I’ve also heard of benches collapsing underneath people, and just like with swiss-balls, quality does count.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
swiss ball + light weight = new fitness fad pushed by trainers so that people can avoid lifting heavy weights.
swiss ball + heavy weight = accident waiting to happen.
[/quote]
That’s what I was thinking.
[quote]CHEKonIT wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I don’t barbell bench press anymore because I think it can restrict advancement once you move into heavier weights unless you have a GREAT spotter who you can trust. I think it is a great exercise for beginners and up until a certain point. For me, once I hit a certain weight, I switched to most dumbbells and then to HS machines. Sticking with the barbell bench would have held back my development.
HS Machines? How can you bring those things up in a topic like this?
If your goal is hypertrophy and hypertrophy only, and the machine fits you and your natural movement pattern directly, you may indeed stay ahead in the growth:injury stakes. Good luck to you.
But if your goal is nearly ANTHING else, HS Machines will just hinder your development. I hate to keep bringing it up, but they’ve just got NO FUNCTIONAL CARRYOVER!
[/quote]
Functional carry over to what? Strength is strength. Getting stronger on any type of lift will carry over to you being able to pick up heavy shit, period. Sorry, you’re “carry over” jive holds no water.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I feel the movement locks you into a position that makes it harder to progress with strength gains once you hit the upper limits.[/quote]
Doesn’t that sound familiar? So tell us how come you mess around with the machines?
[quote]CHEKonIT wrote:
By any chance, did you happen to notice the brand and condition of the ball?
[/quote]
Australian Barbell. Brand new.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
swiss ball + light weight = new fitness fad pushed by trainers so that people can avoid lifting heavy weights.
swiss ball + heavy weight = accident waiting to happen.
[/quote]
Swiss Ball + pgj = around the same iq points
[quote]King of Kings wrote:
U along with paul check believe that a swiss ball is safer on the shoulders?
OOOOOOOOKK i think not.The swiss ball is one of the most dangerous thing’s in the gym IMO .Ive seen more people fall or roll off these things because they try to get into position with some light ass weights or if they make one slight movement on way BAM off they come.Im yet to see one person get injured or complain about sore shoulders or have any shoulder problems.
Everything can be dangerous in the gym if u dont know what u are doing.
K of K[/quote]
Absolutely. Proper, intelligent progression will make a Swiss Ball safe in the right conditions.
There’s a term for those who falls off due to a hasty lack of proper progression. It’s called “Natural Selection”
[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
Functional carry over to what? Strength is strength. Getting stronger on any type of lift will carry over to you being able to pick up heavy shit, period. Sorry, you’re “carry over” jive holds no water.[/quote]
This may be opening a can of worms but the “carry over” does hold water.
There are plenty of guys I have played Aussie Rules Football with who were strong fuckers in the gym, but weak as piss in a ruck or something similar.
Sometimes strength in the gym is only that.
[quote]G.O.A.T wrote:
Corrective Holistic Exercise Kinesiology, where you can find the highest quality information, educational material and functional training tools to help you attain all your wellness, health and fitness goals!" [/quote]
Don’t bag what you don’t understand.
TSB
[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
Functional carry over to what? Strength is strength. Getting stronger on any type of lift will carry over to you being able to pick up heavy shit, period. Sorry, you’re “carry over” jive holds no water.[/quote]
Carryover to pushing things, starting with the door at the enterance to the gym.
If you’re talking about “picking up heavy shit”, and you’re going off topic talking about cleans and deadlifts, I agree with you in that they do have good functional carryover.
If you’re staying on topic maybe we’ve discovered a new class of animal. The humanoid that squeezes himself under anything he wants to pick up.
[quote]G.O.A.T wrote:
CHEKonIT wrote:
By any chance, did you happen to notice the brand and condition of the ball?
Australian Barbell. Brand new.[/quote]
Isn’t that the ball you get at the newsagent on Bourke St. when you buy 3 or more reams of A4 paper?
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
TSB[/quote]
If you don’t understand enough to enter into this intellectual conversation at this point, I invite you to come back and post when you are.
[quote]CHEKonIT wrote:
Isn’t that the ball you get at the newsagent on Bourke St. when you buy 3 or more reams of A4 paper?
[/quote]
Yeah but reading that Chek article he didn’t say anywhere that you needed something stronger than your average Swiss Ball.
[quote]G.O.A.T wrote:
CHEKonIT wrote:
Isn’t that the ball you get at the newsagent on Bourke St. when you buy 3 or more reams of A4 paper?
Yeah but reading that Chek article he didn’t say anywhere that you needed something stronger than your average Swiss Ball.[/quote]
Do you still need your mummy to hold your hand while you cross the street?
Charles Poliquin hasn’t stated that you need good quality equipment to help keep you injury free, and he shouldn’t need to. Are you going to cry about him if your K-Mart bench press rack falls apart?
[quote]CHEKonIT wrote:
Paul Chek states that “because the bench press is performed on a flat weight lifting bench, normal movement of the shoulder blades (scapulae) is disrupted. This demands that more movement must occur in the shoulder joint itself”
And just how much functional carryover will it have to your real-life anyhow? Just how much pectoralis involment is there in typing on a keyboard or pushing a pencil?
[/quote]
the fact that you bench press with your scapulae retracted and you dont have any movement from them can be remedied by simply adding overhead pressing movements. In addition to that various pulling movements balance out the imbalance caused by these great looking pecs that the knuckleheads are after.
As far as typing, you use your forearms and not the tri pecs or ant delts, so maybe some swiss ball grip work is in order. If you were actually trying to question the carryover to everyday activites, then I believe you missed the fact that most people can do these tasks easily without working out. When you talk about functional carryover you should be talking about more demanding tasks, such as on field preformance for athletes. To which a later post leads me to wonder what kind of things are people pushing that they could push easier if they were to use swiss balls.
[quote]CHEKonIT wrote:
Carryover to pushing things, starting with the door at the enterance to the gym.
[/quote]
I personally feel that I have had very good carry over from the bench press to pushing things in real life applications as well as sports.
I think you are missing a key factor here. Functional implies a specific purpose. A specific FUNCTION, to be quite obvious.
So NO one exercise can always be functional all by itself. Not deadlifts, barbell squats, or powercleans. If they suit what the athlete or trainee is trying to achieve, THAT will make it functional. Jerking off while riding on a skateboard with one foot can be functional if your sport is jerking off while riding on a skateboard with one foot. There is no absolute, all factors must be considered.
Considering this, what makes benching on a swiss ball fundamentally more functional? God forbid you are trapped under a tree…WHILE BALANCING ON A SWISS BALL! You don’t roll around on these things in real life so why not do every exercise on a skateboard instead? Or do every exercise on one foot? Because unless the activity you train for has you balancing on a ball, why do it in the gym as opposed to developing these technique and balance specific qualities through training the sport itself?
And lastly, it is possible that injury is less likely to occur over time on the shoulder using the swiss ball rather than a bench. But for the same reason that my friend who is a trainer believes that Super Slow training is safer. Say my 1RM DB flat bench is 100lbs with a moderately controlled but relatively fast eccentric. Now, if I had to take 5 seconds to raise and lower the dumbells, my new 1RM for that tempo prescription would be, say 85lbs.
Now, all things being the same, what is less likely to result in a sudden or chronic injury. Probably the latter, because the weight used is less. Sorry for the lengthy comparisn, but benching on a swiss ball will automatically reduce the weight a person can use (because of the balance factor)thus making it “safer.” This of course does not include factors like falling off the ball.
But by sacrificing the ability to use more weight, you sacrifice maximal strength production as well.
I feel very strongly on this subject because the first few years of my training were spent using a swiss ball much of the time. And since I hopped off of them and did mainly free weight bodybuilding training for a number of years, I’ve put on around 30lbs and would easily kick my own ass in most sports if I traveled back in time.
-MAtt
[quote]CHEKonIT wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Yes, can the OP please explain the term “functional”? I think the whole swiss ball thing is a fad. Arnold, Lou, Frank, Sergio, Franco…these guys never used a big rubbery ball and they did OK. Just another fitness gadget. It can be incorporated into a program, but some of these guys act like your arms are going to fall off and your back is going to explode if you don’t use one. To me, it’s just another excuse to not have to lift heavy weights.
I personally describe the word “functional” in this sense to mean a movement pattern that is replicated in everyday life or the sporting environment.
Saying that, I’d consider EVERY move in the gym functional. It’s just that a lot of movements have more carryover than others.
God help me if I’m on the ground, trapped beneath a fallen tree;
God help you if you put too many steaks in your shopping trolley.[/quote]
Why don’t you go into some of the author’s locker rooms and share your opinion with some of them?
Afraid that they’re in a much better position to prove you wrong as opposed to the average T-Nation poster?
Please post a link to where you ask the questions, or state you opinions.
I’m looking forward to reading your conversations and learning from them.