Jim,
In the Beyond 5/3/1 training you indicate that 5lb (UB) and 10lb(LB) weight increments every 3 weeks should still be followed. Does that change at all with the Template 3 variation in which you’re doing each lift twice a week? Similarly, would that reduce the recommended deload time from 6 weeks down to 4 or 5 weeks? Thanks
Every 3-6 weeks - no more. You really don’t want to increase your TM much. That will make you weaker.
I’ll weigh in here because this program has been good to me. As of tonight, in four months my PR’s have gone from:
Squat - 430x3 to 450x3, 479x1 to 500x1
Bench - 305x3 to 325x3, 335x1 to 355x1
Dead - 480x3 to 545x3, 555x1 to 580x1
…and countless other PRs from singles through eight-rep maxes. Gained 3-5 pounds in that timeframe.
At my current level of strength (500 squat and 580 deadlift in training in the past month,) my training maxes are 375 for squat and 455 for deadlift. These serve as daily minimums, i.e. every training day, I must at the very least hit these numbers x 1. Usually I do more, but on the worst possible day, sick, banged up, exhausted, I can always come in and at least hit a crisp single with the TM. I am in no hurry to increase these.
[quote]Ramo wrote:
I’ll weigh in here because this program has been good to me. As of tonight, in four months my PR’s have gone from:
Squat - 430x3 to 450x3, 479x1 to 500x1
Bench - 305x3 to 325x3, 335x1 to 355x1
Dead - 480x3 to 545x3, 555x1 to 580x1
…and countless other PRs from singles through eight-rep maxes. Gained 3-5 pounds in that timeframe.
At my current level of strength (500 squat and 580 deadlift in training in the past month,) my training maxes are 375 for squat and 455 for deadlift. These serve as daily minimums, i.e. every training day, I must at the very least hit these numbers x 1. Usually I do more, but on the worst possible day, sick, banged up, exhausted, I can always come in and at least hit a crisp single with the TM. I am in no hurry to increase these. [/quote]
Hey man, that’s great to hear. I figured it would be, not like there’s anything in the book that’s not great. Congratulations on your PR’s too.
What option and training split to you use?
[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
Hey man, that’s great to hear. I figured it would be, not like there’s anything in the book that’s not great. Congratulations on your PR’s too.
What option and training split to you use? [/quote]
I rotate through:
1.Squat
2.Press
3.Squat/Deadlift
4.Bench
I’ll train most days, taking a day off when I want/need to. Usually works out to around 6 days/week. On deadlift day I’ll generally just squat up to TMx1.
As far as ‘option,’ I assume you’re referring to the different loading options Jim lists in the book, e.g. whether to work up to a RM, hit jokers, take an RM with Jokers, etc…, this is a decision I usually don’t make until I’m under the bar on a given day. Often I’ll get it in mind during the day that I feel good and may attempt a certain PR, but I will always audible out of this if my body tells me to once I am lifting.
The reason this works so well is because it gives you a few guidelines to autoregulate your training. If you try to pin down too many of the variables rather than making those decisions on the fly, you may lose a lot of the program’s value. Just one man’s opinion…
[quote]Ramo wrote:
[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
Hey man, that’s great to hear. I figured it would be, not like there’s anything in the book that’s not great. Congratulations on your PR’s too.
What option and training split to you use? [/quote]
I rotate through:
1.Squat
2.Press
3.Squat/Deadlift
4.Bench
I’ll train most days, taking a day off when I want/need to. Usually works out to around 6 days/week. On deadlift day I’ll generally just squat up to TMx1.
As far as ‘option,’ I assume you’re referring to the different loading options Jim lists in the book, e.g. whether to work up to a RM, hit jokers, take an RM with Jokers, etc…, this is a decision I usually don’t make until I’m under the bar on a given day. Often I’ll get it in mind during the day that I feel good and may attempt a certain PR, but I will always audible out of this if my body tells me to once I am lifting.
The reason this works so well is because it gives you a few guidelines to autoregulate your training. If you try to pin down too many of the variables rather than making those decisions on the fly, you may lose a lot of the program’s value. Just one man’s opinion…[/quote]
Yeah, the auto-regulation piece makes a lot of sense and seems to be the point Jim was trying to make in that section of the book. It would make more sense to use whichever option best suits how you feel that day. Thanks for sharing your insight and experience.
Just to throw in with the discussion, I’ve been working with this program for 4 months or so now, and have seen great progress. What I do is wait until I hit a 9 rep PR with my TM, meaning I have at least 2 more reps in the tank (which I don’t do, but means I have comfortably 10 good reps with my TM), before I add the suggested weight.
That, for me, has happened consistently between 3-5 weeks. That rate of progress may slow, but I will stick with the 9 good working reps as my marker before moving up, so long as I continue to creep towards it. If I genuinely stall, then I’ll reset.
[quote]HGStripe wrote:
Just to throw in with the discussion, I’ve been working with this program for 4 months or so now, and have seen great progress. What I do is wait until I hit a 9 rep PR with my TM, meaning I have at least 2 more reps in the tank (which I don’t do, but means I have comfortably 10 good reps with my TM), before I add the suggested weight.
That, for me, has happened consistently between 3-5 weeks. That rate of progress may slow, but I will stick with the 9 good working reps as my marker before moving up, so long as I continue to creep towards it. If I genuinely stall, then I’ll reset. [/quote]
That is good to hear. Probably a good approach to incrementing the weights; being cautious and slow is probably the best route. About how long do your workouts take? Just an estimate of the actually lifting (warm-ups and worksets).
[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
[quote]HGStripe wrote:
Just to throw in with the discussion, I’ve been working with this program for 4 months or so now, and have seen great progress. What I do is wait until I hit a 9 rep PR with my TM, meaning I have at least 2 more reps in the tank (which I don’t do, but means I have comfortably 10 good reps with my TM), before I add the suggested weight.
That, for me, has happened consistently between 3-5 weeks. That rate of progress may slow, but I will stick with the 9 good working reps as my marker before moving up, so long as I continue to creep towards it. If I genuinely stall, then I’ll reset. [/quote]
That is good to hear. Probably a good approach to incrementing the weights; being cautious and slow is probably the best route. About how long do your workouts take? Just an estimate of the actually lifting (warm-ups and worksets).
[/quote]
Honestly, I’ve spent months without my lifts moving, and still scoffed at the idea of ‘only’ adding 5lbs month/6 week period. Since I pulled my head out of my arse, and have been content to go slower, I have made consistent progress. If in doubt, run it another week with more rep PRs has worked well.
I start at 50% on all lifts, and do max reps (5,5,3,3,1,1+). I do a lot of conditioning at the start and end of my training, but still aim to be in and out in 40-50 minutes.
Today’s session as an example:
Circuit: 3 rounds of the following as quickly as possible:
20 pushups, 20 jumping jacks, 15 pushups, 15 jumping jacks, 10 pushups, 10 jumping jacks, 5 pushups, 5 jumping jacks (1 round)
Strength:
1.A Jump squats 3 x 3 @ 20% of Squat TM - These & BW jumps have been a serious discovery
1.B Deadlift Beyond 531: 50%x5, 60% x 5, 70% x 3, 80% x 3, 90% x 1, TM x 8
1.C Hanging Leg raises 5 x 5
Circuit: 3 Rounds as fast as possible:
10 sandbag shoulders
10 pushups
20 DB swings
This took me just under 45 minutes.
Wendler said in his new book that he was considering doing a whole book on this particular program. Im anxious to see it!
[quote]casperthegst wrote:
Wendler said in his new book that he was considering doing a whole book on this particular program. Im anxious to see it![/quote]
I saw that and I’m pretty excited too.
So I read most of the beyond 531 program. I really like the idea do doing squats and bench then press and deads on the same day. I noticed that one variation had you doing this twice a week. Basically I’m going to modify the five week,plan posted on the main page to four days a week instead of three. I want the rest of the program though. Does anyone know what it’s called so I can get the rest of it? I would also like to know how and where you would add first set last and joker sets? Any help would be really appreciated.
Ramo,
Do you feel there’s much room for conditioning in the Training Maximally program? Or it’s better to scale it back since the focus is on strength and size here? Also, when do you feel you have stalled? When you can’t get 1 rep with your TM?
Nice to hear it’s working great for you, it’s something I’ll try next year:)
Thanks!
[quote]stanzi2007 wrote:
So I read most of the beyond 531 program. I really like the idea do doing squats and bench then press and deads on the same day. I noticed that one variation had you doing this twice a week. Basically I’m going to modify the five week,plan posted on the main page to four days a week instead of three. I want the rest of the program though. Does anyone know what it’s called so I can get the rest of it? I would also like to know how and where you would add first set last and joker sets? Any help would be really appreciated. [/quote]
Aside from the couple Beyond 5/3/1 articles Jim posted here on T-Nation, everything that you’re asking is answered in the book. The Beyond 5/3/1 variation (really it’s its own animal) is very well mapped out by Jim in the book and is very specific on sets, reps, Joker Sets and training splits. I read it, re-read it, re-re-read it, and I will probably read it two more times before transitioning into it so I don’t fuck it up.
[quote]Corax wrote:
Ramo,
Do you feel there’s much room for conditioning in the Training Maximally program? Or it’s better to scale it back since the focus is on strength and size here? Also, when do you feel you have stalled? When you can’t get 1 rep with your TM?
Nice to hear it’s working great for you, it’s something I’ll try next year:)
Thanks![/quote]
The “program” if you can even call it that, is pretty open-ended. It can be whatever you want it to be. High-frequency, low-frequency, high or low volume, etc. It’s really just a guided way to autoregulate your training. There’s some degree of autoregulation with 5/3/1, but this takes it to another level, so it’s not for everyone.
W/r/t conditioning, there’s room for as much as you want if you use a template that makes room for it. I lift pretty much daily, and generally push the joker sets pretty hard, so maybe not a ton of room for me. If you trained 2-3x/week, you could probably use the program and focus heavily on conditioning.
As far as “stalling,” I have no plans to stall. My training max is well below what I’m capable of lifting on my worst day, and it doesn’t increase on any fixed schedule. I may increase it 5-10 pounds every couple months, but otherwise I’ve been getting stronger while leaving it alone so what’s the point?
If you’re a guy that needs your training to be heavily programmed and mapped out for you, this isn’t going to be a good fit. If you’re comfortable making your own training decisions on a daily and weekly basis, don’t want to fuck around with too much fluff, and want to move heavy weight, then I can’t recommend it highly enough.
[quote]Ramo wrote:
[quote]Corax wrote:
Ramo,
Do you feel there’s much room for conditioning in the Training Maximally program? Or it’s better to scale it back since the focus is on strength and size here? Also, when do you feel you have stalled? When you can’t get 1 rep with your TM?
Nice to hear it’s working great for you, it’s something I’ll try next year:)
Thanks![/quote]
The “program” if you can even call it that, is pretty open-ended. It can be whatever you want it to be. High-frequency, low-frequency, high or low volume, etc. It’s really just a guided way to autoregulate your training. There’s some degree of autoregulation with 5/3/1, but this takes it to another level, so it’s not for everyone.
W/r/t conditioning, there’s room for as much as you want if you use a template that makes room for it. I lift pretty much daily, and generally push the joker sets pretty hard, so maybe not a ton of room for me. If you trained 2-3x/week, you could probably use the program and focus heavily on conditioning.
As far as “stalling,” I have no plans to stall. My training max is well below what I’m capable of lifting on my worst day, and it doesn’t increase on any fixed schedule. I may increase it 5-10 pounds every couple months, but otherwise I’ve been getting stronger while leaving it alone so what’s the point?
If you’re a guy that needs your training to be heavily programmed and mapped out for you, this isn’t going to be a good fit. If you’re comfortable making your own training decisions on a daily and weekly basis, don’t want to fuck around with too much fluff, and want to move heavy weight, then I can’t recommend it highly enough. [/quote]
@ Ramo: I know there is a fair amount of auto-regulation in this program, but what would a typical squat and a typical bench session look like for you? Main movement, 2 or 3 assistance exercises and then out depending on how you feel that day?
One thing that I recently picked up for cardio was something I read on the JTS website called “Tempo Training”. I feel like I get some good cardio with it but I don’t feel dead afterwards, nor does it affect my lifting.
[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
@ Ramo: I know there is a fair amount of auto-regulation in this program, but what would a typical squat and a typical bench session look like for you? Main movement, 2 or 3 assistance exercises and then out depending on how you feel that day?
[/quote]
From recent log entries:
Squat day
Squat
135x5
185x3
225x2
260x1
300x1
335x1
375x1
410x1
450x3 (PR+5)
280x5 (3ct pause)
280x5 (3ct pause)
280x5 (3ct pause)
280x5 (3ct pause)
280x5 (3ct pause)
Bench day
Bench
135x5
170x4
200x3
230x2
255x1
285x1
315x1
325x3 (PR+10)
340x1
235x8 (feet elevated)
235x8 (feet elevated)
235x8 (feet elevated)
Seated Row
210x10
210x10
210x10
BB Curl
2x12
I don’t believe in “assistance exercises” unless we’re talking about a close variation of the powerlift, or something like lat work.
[quote]Ramo wrote:
[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
@ Ramo: I know there is a fair amount of auto-regulation in this program, but what would a typical squat and a typical bench session look like for you? Main movement, 2 or 3 assistance exercises and then out depending on how you feel that day?
[/quote]
From recent log entries:
Squat day
Squat
135x5
185x3
225x2
260x1
300x1
335x1
375x1
410x1
450x3 (PR+5)
280x5 (3ct pause)
280x5 (3ct pause)
280x5 (3ct pause)
280x5 (3ct pause)
280x5 (3ct pause)
Bench day
Bench
135x5
170x4
200x3
230x2
255x1
285x1
315x1
325x3 (PR+10)
340x1
235x8 (feet elevated)
235x8 (feet elevated)
235x8 (feet elevated)
Seated Row
210x10
210x10
210x10
BB Curl
2x12
I don’t believe in “assistance exercises” unless we’re talking about a close variation of the powerlift, or something like lat work. [/quote]
Nice, I was thinking the same thing about the paused reps on the Down sets as well. When I was thinking about how I might approach Beyond 5/3/1 I was thinking for upper body that I might do one DB movement (Bench / OHP) and Chin-ups. Then lower body would be just Back Raises and Abs, keep it simple but enough to help strengthen supporting muscle groups.