Better Physique: Bruce Lee or Arnold?

Off Topic
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[quote]DBCooper wrote:
When Bruce Lee was in film, scenes were shot at 24 frames/second. When Lee was in a scene, they shot everything at 36 frames/second and then slowed it down slightly so that people could actually see what he was doing. Also, and this is not legend since it was witnessed by about 30,000 people and captured on video, Lee performed an exhibition where he had the current world karate champion try to stop a direct punch to the face from Lee. Lee threw 8 punches and the guy couldn’t block a single one, even though he knew they were coming. Lee stopped each punch just short of his face. I doubt Jet Li or Jackie Chan or Jason Statham is THAT fast.[/quote]

I’ve read about the film speed thing. If you look at some of the training footage, I don’t think he’s necessarily any faster than Li or Chan. Pro wushu athletes in China have insane speed and I think are definitely faster than that generation of movie star.

“World Karate Champion”? That can really mean anything. It’s not like Bruce Lee was throwing punches and embarrassing Mayweather Jr. I believe that Bruce Lee was far ahead of his contemporaries in Asian martial arts. But I think combative sports have come a long way recently. If you put Bruce Lee in a cage with Jose Aldo, or a ring with Masato, I don’t think it would really be that competitive at all.

I guess what I’m getting at is that Bruce Lee was ahead of the curve at a time when there really was no curve. Add in that a lot of what he has done isn’t really verifiable. That makes him interesting but in comparisons of fighters and athletes, somewhat irrelevant.

Anyway… Arnold is numero uno…

At making illegitimate children.

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The Bruce Lee bullshit is overblown. He was an actor, like Jackie Chan, and probably not much more dangerous.

Will there be no end to this ridiculousness…

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
The Bruce Lee bullshit is overblown. He was an actor, like Jackie Chan, and probably not much more dangerous.

Will there be no end to this ridiculousness…[/quote]

What about Chuck Norris?

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[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
the ability to make a 300lb punching bag hit the ceiling with one side kick [/quote]

Bullshit, I think theres a lot more fol lore/legend surround bruce lee, kinda like the chuck norris phenomenon but less philosophical and less established.[/quote]

yes, its all legend, like his one arm 2 finger pushups, oh wait, you can view it on youtube. guess it isn’t a legend after all. is it.[/quote]

Did I ever say that it was ALL legend, dummy?

NO, I didn’t I picked the one that I KNEW was BULLSHIT. I didn’t even pick the 30 min flag cause that almost seems possible. I’m looking to physics to help persuade my decision. A 160lb dude kicks a 300lb bag and makes it hit the cieling?

Where is THAT youtube video? Where is the youtube video for the 30 minute flag? If it sounds ridiculous and there is no video I will not accept it

Out of all the magical feats listed you picked one and then generalize, atta guy…[/quote]

I’m just curious. Do you believe in God?[/quote]

Thanks for asking, Do I strike you as someone who believes in god or not?

Fuck no I don’t believe in god/a spirit, do you?[/quote]

I don’t want to derail this thread again. My point is that your refusal to believe some of Bruce Lee’s more amazing feats isn’t proof at all that they aren’t possible. I laugh at looking to physics to back you up. If you look to physics for answers you’ll find that the human body is physically capable of doing much more outlandish shit than making a 300lb punching bag hit the ceiling.

If you’re so confident it’s impossible, why don’t you use physics instead of your own uninformed opinion to show us Lee’s kicking ability is inaccurately described? And don’t give me this “the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim” bullshit. The burden of proof lies with the one demanding it.[/quote]

First of all I’m going to need the height of the ceiling, exact limb lengths, the weight of his limbs, the flooring material (for every action there is a equal/opposite reaction you know) also the material the bag was made of and filled with if I am to actually do this…

It’s all going to come down to something like “he would have to be accelerating his leg at xxx ft/seconds squared” to which ANYONE can say yea, THATS POSSIBLE, and I would agree like you said the human body can do crazy things. Theres no reason that someone can’t jump 30ft straight up, why not?

But is it PLAUSIBLE? no…Did he actually do it? no. This reminds me of the legends of strongmen of the late 1800’s.

So you believe in god then?[/quote]

Excuses, excuses.

Height of the ceiling: 8’, which means that the actual hook the bag hangs and pivots from is more like 7’8" off the ground. The top of the bag itself would then sit an additional 16" below that. The bag itself is approximately 5’ tall.

Limb length: Lee was 5’7", 145lbs and didn’t look to have abnormally-long legs by any means. I think with this information you could make a reasonable assumption of what his leg length/weight is. I wouldn’t hold it against you if you rounded up or down a pound/inch or two to better prop up your argument.

Flooring material: concrete slab, reinforced by rebar, approximately 6" deep ( a driveway or garage floor, basically)

Punching bag materials: made out of leather (about 1/8" thick) and filled with coarse sand.

Assume that this is performed at sea level and indoors. Assume that as Lee “glides” toward the bag he is moving at 5mph. Assume that Lee has a size 8 foot and is bare foot. Assume that the apparatus attaching the bag to the ceiling weighs 1 pound and that the chains the bag hangs on weigh an additional 7lbs. Assume that Lee’s leg is striking the bag at an angle parallel to the floor and perfectly perpendicular to the bag.

Have at it, pal. Prove me wrong.

[/quote]

Sure thing buddy.

Problem is that now since you have described the situation enough, I am no longer impressed. Much less force is required to propel the bag around the pivot point (the hanger) than would be required to lift the bag straight up vertically with a kick…but my brain is craving some problem solving and I’ll see what I can do :wink:

but all these little weiner feats of “strength/skill” are moot as shit and not even that impressive. It’s kinda like when someone makes up some very obscure world record attempt just to get their name in the book

Oh, and Arnold wins by a long shot…didn’t he win Mr.Olympia a time or two???[/quote]

You’re so full of shit it’s bubbling out of your mouth. What the fuck did you think the punching bag was hanging from? No pivot point? Did you think I was referring to a bag sitting on the ground? Of course not; you specifically asked for the height of the ceiling. Why? Because you thought he was kicking a stationary 300lb bag that was just sitting on the floor? No, because you assumed it was hanging from the ceiling. And now that you realize it isn’t nearly as implausible as you rashly/ignorantly assumed it to be, and it is still an impressive feat, you are simply backtracking and looking for an honorable exit strategy. Nice try. I’m smarter than I look.[/quote]

Wow, how did you do that man? It’s like you read my mind and know EXACTLY what I’m thinking and what my thought process is, I’m scared right now (but I’m sure you knew that :wink:

I legitimately pictured the bag like propped up sideways across two supports on the ends so that he could strike it in the middle (I was confused about the “side” kick part). Face it, I think differently and never paid to much attention to bruce lee, and now I know why. Cause he was lame as shit, seriously most of the shit He did was pretty unimpressive, I mean two finger pushup? wow… Please… I guess I can see people being impressed by it in the 60’s/70’s

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Anyone that has any kind of actual fighting training boxing/muay thai/mma or whatever can call bullshit on most of Lee’s stuff. As for the heavy bag, i’m not sure I believe it but even so, hasn’t anyone ever heard of pushing a punch in boxing. I remember in training this one kid I boxed with who always pushed his punches, he would push me back and push the heavy bag around like nothing but he had no snap, he hit like a girl. Also where you hit the bag will make it sway more/less, depending on the momentum the bag already had and when he timed the kick. The fact that so many grown men are so willing to blindly believe all of the rumors without any actual knowledge is simply pathetic. How many guys come on here that weight a 150lbs, and claim a 400lb squat and get laughed at, but when a scrawny little guy like Bruce Lee who ACTED not FOUGHT professionally claims he can annhilate anyone people believe it.

Honestly I’m in shock that this is even a debate on a bodybuilding forum. Appearance wise Arnold wins by a landslide.

I’d say someone like Le’ron Mcclain, whoops them both. He’s a big guy who clearly has some muscle mass, far from bodybuilding standards but a big guy none the less. He throws 250lb linebackers around on a conistent basis, has quick speed and good agility. I don’t believe for a second that Bruce Lee would ragdoll Mcclain nor do I believe Arnold is as all around athletic as Mcclain.

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[quote]behexen wrote:

I’d say someone like Le’ron Mcclain, whoops them both. He’s a big guy who clearly has some muscle mass, far from bodybuilding standards but a big guy none the less. He throws 250lb linebackers around on a conistent basis, has quick speed and good agility. I don’t believe for a second that Bruce Lee would ragdoll Mcclain nor do I believe Arnold is as all around athletic as Mcclain. [/quote]

So uh the Ravens going to finally take out the Steelers in the playoffs? :slight_smile:

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Haha, they should have beaten them last year. Honestly I’m not to worried about it man, I’m just ready for week 1. We’ll take the steelers one game at a time, best rivalry in sports. I hope Mcclain is back, I’d love to see him mop the floor with Woodley.

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^ As a Cowboys fan I hope you do, I go for the Ravens cause I do not like the Steelers. Especially since they went one up on us in SB rings. :frowning: Pray brother pray the get the CBA done.

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Lee appeared at the 1967 Long Beach International Karate Championships and performed various demonstrations, including the famous “unstoppable punch” against USKA world Karate champion Vic Moore.[37] Lee told Moore that he was going to throw a straight punch to the face, and all he had to do was to try and block it. Lee took several steps back and asked if Moore was ready, when Moore nodded in affirmation, Lee glided towards him until he was within striking range. He then threw a straight punch directly at Moore’s face, and stopped before impact. In eight attempts, Moore failed to block any of the punches

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[quote]Bigjuicyhog wrote:
Lee appeared at the 1967 Long Beach International Karate Championships and performed various demonstrations, including the famous “unstoppable punch” against USKA world Karate champion Vic Moore.[37] Lee told Moore that he was going to throw a straight punch to the face, and all he had to do was to try and block it. Lee took several steps back and asked if Moore was ready, when Moore nodded in affirmation, Lee glided towards him until he was within striking range. He then threw a straight punch directly at Moore’s face, and stopped before impact. In eight attempts, Moore failed to block any of the punches[/quote]

this is from wikipedia right? obvi the most reliable source…

Is there any chance that Lee had talked to Vic Moore before hand and made an agreement with him to fail to block the punches? maybe for some monetary compensation?

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[quote]behexen wrote:
Anyone that has any kind of actual fighting training boxing/muay thai/mma or whatever can call bullshit on most of Lee’s stuff. As for the heavy bag, i’m not sure I believe it but even so, hasn’t anyone ever heard of pushing a punch in boxing. I remember in training this one kid I boxed with who always pushed his punches, he would push me back and push the heavy bag around like nothing but he had no snap, he hit like a girl. Also where you hit the bag will make it sway more/less, depending on the momentum the bag already had and when he timed the kick. The fact that so many grown men are so willing to blindly believe all of the rumors without any actual knowledge is simply pathetic. How many guys come on here that weight a 150lbs, and claim a 400lb squat and get laughed at, but when a scrawny little guy like Bruce Lee who ACTED not FOUGHT professionally claims he can annhilate anyone people believe it.

Honestly I’m in shock that this is even a debate on a bodybuilding forum. Appearance wise Arnold wins by a landslide.

I’d say someone like Le’ron Mcclain, whoops them both. He’s a big guy who clearly has some muscle mass, far from bodybuilding standards but a big guy none the less. He throws 250lb linebackers around on a conistent basis, has quick speed and good agility. I don’t believe for a second that Bruce Lee would ragdoll Mcclain nor do I believe Arnold is as all around athletic as Mcclain. [/quote]

I have dabbled in Brazilian and Japanese ju-jitsu and Wing Chun. I have no reason whatsoever to call bullshit on Lee. In fact, it gives me even more reason to appreciate what he did and who he was.

As for your claim that he had no experience fighting, the guy was the two-time boxing champion in Hong Kong, which was before he really began to develop his own fighting system, Jeet Kune Do. There are also many, many witnesses who have seen Lee participate in numerous street fights and he has the criminal record in Hong Kong to prove it. It is also true that he had a longstanding challenge to anyone who felt they could take him in a fight. To my knowledge no one even bothered challenging him. I’d like to see one of these fag UFC fighters who are protected by rules put out a challenge like that.

The bag that Lee allegedly could make hit the ceiling also allegedly had no momentum to it; he kicked it once and it would hit the ceiling. Yes, I’m sure he pushed it as you described above, but to kick something that weighs 300lbs hard enough to move it 90 degrees does require some extension of the leg through the bag, hence the push. But I’d be willing to bet that there is no way in hell you could take a stationary, hanging bag and make it hit the ceiling even if you shoved it as hard as you can with both hands.

What I think is pathetic is that so many people on here who allege to be knowledgeable about the human body either dismiss Lee entirely because his feats “weren’t that impressive” (I’d be willing to also bet that there isn’t a single person making this dismissal who can even perform one two-finger, one-armed pushup, let alone rep them out like Lee did, ON VIDEO) or refuse to admit that there is any credence to his claims simply because some of them aren’t easily found on YouTube.

And as far as McClain goes, you obviously have ZERO experience fighting in ANY situation at all. Ask anyone with significant experience fighting either competitively or in the streets and they’ll all tell you they’d rather fight someone bigger than them due to the natural speed advantage the smaller person has. I’m pretty sure FightinIrish is a competitive boxer and I’d be willing to bet he does better against bigger opponents. Manny Pacquiao does better against bigger fighters as well. If you’re a real fighter and you’re fast, you’re probably going to do much better against bigger guys.

Sure, if the bigger guy gets his hands on you he could just smother you to death, much like that fat ass Roy Nelson. But against anyone with any sort of grappling/ju jitsu experience (which Lee had in spades) this size advantage is automatically nullified if they can’t grapple at least a little. Size, strength and running speed that translates well on the football field doesn’t mean shit in a fight. No, Lee would not “ragdoll” McClain, he’d just dance circles around him and pick him apart at his leisure. McClain? Really? Patrick Willis would beat the shit out of that pansy any day of the week by your standards. And Vernon Davis would decimate him as well.

I’ve never heard a single person who actually KNEW Lee call any of his feats bullshit or fabricated or unimpressive, but I sure have heard a lot of people who weren’t even alive when he died and whose knowledge of Lee is limited to a couple Internet rumors and “Enter the Dragon” pass judgment on him.

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[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Bigjuicyhog wrote:
Lee appeared at the 1967 Long Beach International Karate Championships and performed various demonstrations, including the famous “unstoppable punch” against USKA world Karate champion Vic Moore.[37] Lee told Moore that he was going to throw a straight punch to the face, and all he had to do was to try and block it. Lee took several steps back and asked if Moore was ready, when Moore nodded in affirmation, Lee glided towards him until he was within striking range. He then threw a straight punch directly at Moore’s face, and stopped before impact. In eight attempts, Moore failed to block any of the punches[/quote]

this is from wikipedia right? obvi the most reliable source…

Is there any chance that Lee had talked to Vic Moore before hand and made an agreement with him to fail to block the punches? maybe for some monetary compensation? [/quote]

Possibility and probability are two different things. Yes, it’s possible but it is HIGHLY improbable. Besides, Lee made good money but I doubt he made enough to be able to buy the USKA Champion’s integrity and pride.

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[quote]gregron wrote:
this is from wikipedia right? obvi the most reliable source…[/quote]

I see the lazy researcher is weak in you, grasshopper.

It’s from a different source that Wikipedia is citing. Find reference #37 and see how reliable that one is.

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DB I would put my money on Ray Ray Lewis to kill them all…with a gun. :slight_smile:

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[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I have dabbled in Brazilian and Japanese ju-jitsu and Wing Chun. I have no reason whatsoever to call bullshit on Lee. In fact, it gives me even more reason to appreciate what he did and who he was.

As for your claim that he had no experience fighting, the guy was the two-time boxing champion in Hong Kong, which was before he really began to develop his own fighting system, Jeet Kune Do. There are also many, many witnesses who have seen Lee participate in numerous street fights and he has the criminal record in Hong Kong to prove it. It is also true that he had a longstanding challenge to anyone who felt they could take him in a fight. To my knowledge no one even bothered challenging him. I’d like to see one of these fag UFC fighters who are protected by rules put out a challenge like that.

The bag that Lee allegedly could make hit the ceiling also allegedly had no momentum to it; he kicked it once and it would hit the ceiling. Yes, I’m sure he pushed it as you described above, but to kick something that weighs 300lbs hard enough to move it 90 degrees does require some extension of the leg through the bag, hence the push. But I’d be willing to bet that there is no way in hell you could take a stationary, hanging bag and make it hit the ceiling even if you shoved it as hard as you can with both hands.

What I think is pathetic is that so many people on here who allege to be knowledgeable about the human body either dismiss Lee entirely because his feats “weren’t that impressive” (I’d be willing to also bet that there isn’t a single person making this dismissal who can even perform one two-finger, one-armed pushup, let alone rep them out like Lee did, ON VIDEO) or refuse to admit that there is any credence to his claims simply because some of them aren’t easily found on YouTube.

And as far as McClain goes, you obviously have ZERO experience fighting in ANY situation at all. Ask anyone with significant experience fighting either competitively or in the streets and they’ll all tell you they’d rather fight someone bigger than them due to the natural speed advantage the smaller person has. I’m pretty sure FightinIrish is a competitive boxer and I’d be willing to bet he does better against bigger opponents. Manny Pacquiao does better against bigger fighters as well. If you’re a real fighter and you’re fast, you’re probably going to do much better against bigger guys.

Sure, if the bigger guy gets his hands on you he could just smother you to death, much like that fat ass Roy Nelson. But against anyone with any sort of grappling/ju jitsu experience (which Lee had in spades) this size advantage is automatically nullified if they can’t grapple at least a little. Size, strength and running speed that translates well on the football field doesn’t mean shit in a fight. No, Lee would not “ragdoll” McClain, he’d just dance circles around him and pick him apart at his leisure. McClain? Really? Patrick Willis would beat the shit out of that pansy any day of the week by your standards. And Vernon Davis would decimate him as well.

I’ve never heard a single person who actually KNEW Lee call any of his feats bullshit or fabricated or unimpressive, but I sure have heard a lot of people who weren’t even alive when he died and whose knowledge of Lee is limited to a couple Internet rumors and “Enter the Dragon” pass judgment on him.[/quote]

If a UFC fighter put out a challenge like that they’d get in serious trouble. Now assuming they put out a challenge to anyone to step in the octagon they may be able to legally get away with it but alas then they’d be fighting under rules and you’d still call them pussies.

Like I said I have my doubts about the punching bag story, but the only way I could see it as credible is with the push. He surely didn’t knock it like that with just the impact of the kick.

As for Mcclain, I didn’t reference fighting, I was just saying overall ability with his body is vastly superior to that of Bruce Lee. Sure Bruce was strong for his size but that’s why there are weight classes in all competitions because it’s nearly impossible for a smaller guy to compete with a bigger guy. However even if they fought I think Mcclain would beat Lee. He’s to big and to strong, he’s friends with Tom Zibkowski whom has boxed proffesionally so I find it difficult to believe he doesn’t have any knowledge of the fight game. With that much of a size advantage he’d have to have no skills at all in order to not defend himself against a 135lb guy. Lee is more myth than anything. Mcclain earned his stripes on the field competing against other athletes.

As for the Manny Pacquiao argument. Who has he fought since moving up in weight? Cotto? Hatton? Margarito? Clottey? All guys were tailor made for him, Margarito was the only one that I thought had a chance and that was because of his workrate and chin not his size. If it’s easier for Manny to fight bigger fighters why doesn’t he challenge Sergio Martinez? Or better yet why not fight Mikkel Kessler? Hell he might just as well fight Vitali Klitschko because you know David Haye doesn’t want any part of him. Weight classes are made for a reason, a great big fighter beats a great little fighter any day. I’ve boxed bigger and smaller guys and it has more to do with style than it does anything. I was a pressure fighter, small speedy guys I could walk through their punches all day, I always felt in the fight because sooner or later I thought I could break them down. A big fighter takes the punches differently and typically can lay more heat on you than a smaller guy. It’s completly different. If it’s only 10 15lbs it’s not always to noticable but you get much more of a size disparity and i’ll take on the smaller guy. I have alot of respect for Irish as he obviously has some knowledge of the fight game so I hope he responds with his opinion on this.

I respect your opinion and enjoy the argument haha keep the debate going DB. Ravens play the 99ers in November so we’ll see what Willis can do with Mcclain.

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[quote]DJHT wrote:
DB I would put my money on Ray Ray Lewis to kill them all…with a gun. :)[/quote]

Hahah.

Ah, some Deej humor.

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[quote]behexen wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

The bag that Lee allegedly could make hit the ceiling also allegedly had no momentum to it; he kicked it once and it would hit the ceiling. Yes, I’m sure he pushed it as you described above, but to kick something that weighs 300lbs hard enough to move it 90 degrees does require some extension of the leg through the bag, hence the push.[/quote]

Like I said I have my doubts about the punching bag story, but the only way I could see it as credible is with the push. He surely didn’t knock it like that with just the impact of the kick.

[/quote]

There’s a video of this, you know.

I don’t know if the bag is 300 lbs, but it does fly off the screen. Doesn’t seem “pushed” at all.

And about there being “no curve.” Come on, really? We’re talking martial arts that have existed for hundreds of years, likely refined each century just as any body of knowledge is refined in its application over many years. Even wrestling is at least two thousand years old. There’s always been a curve.

I think there’s an acceleration of this refinement when bodies of knowledge CONVERGE–e.g. “mixed martial arts”–and knowledge can be shared by people who interpret it differently.

Pretty sure Lee would’ve respected BJJ and tried to pick it up. He didn’t seem dogmatic, but I’m not an expert on him.

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[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
And about there being “no curve.” Come on, really? We’re talking martial arts that have existed for hundreds of years, likely refined each century just as any body of knowledge is refined in its application over many years. Even wrestling is at least two thousand years old. There’s always been a curve.

I think there’s an acceleration of this refinement when bodies of knowledge CONVERGE–e.g. “mixed martial arts”–and knowledge can be shared by people who interpret it differently.

Pretty sure Lee would’ve respected BJJ and tried to pick it up. He didn’t seem dogmatic, but I’m not an expert on him.[/quote]

Prior to modern times, martial arts were very dogmatic and in my opinion relatively untested, especially in comparison with each other. Bruce Lee was one of the first guys to start putting things together. In addition, he was experimenting with things like strength training and nutrition.

Lee was known for refining the old martial arts and keeping what worked. An example was his rejection of the low horse stance that any new kung fu/tae kwon do student can tell you is basically good for only punishing leg burn. But think of how much more progress has occurred in the last 30 years. Going off the last 10 years and MMA, there have been huge strides in the abilities of fighters.

I think performance in sports generally has been on a huge boom in recent times and it’s especially noticeable in combat sports. I think a lot of this is because old dogmas are have stuck around much longer in the martial arts so their disappearance is much more evident.

I exclude boxing and to a certain extent wrestling from this because they’ve been “official” for a lot longer. A lot of eastern arts were practiced in secret and not continuously applied, so I think their refinement and growth were stagnant.

Sorry for the long and rambling post.

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[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Bigjuicyhog wrote:
Lee appeared at the 1967 Long Beach International Karate Championships and performed various demonstrations, including the famous “unstoppable punch” against USKA world Karate champion Vic Moore.[37] Lee told Moore that he was going to throw a straight punch to the face, and all he had to do was to try and block it. Lee took several steps back and asked if Moore was ready, when Moore nodded in affirmation, Lee glided towards him until he was within striking range. He then threw a straight punch directly at Moore’s face, and stopped before impact. In eight attempts, Moore failed to block any of the punches[/quote]

this is from wikipedia right? obvi the most reliable source…

Is there any chance that Lee had talked to Vic Moore before hand and made an agreement with him to fail to block the punches? maybe for some monetary compensation? [/quote]

I remember hearing a Timor that something like this happened, also vic and Lee where [apparently] friends.

Also karate is worse than powerlifting for it’s different federations etc

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