Best Martial Arts for Fighting?

Sentoguy · June 19, 2007, 3:01am

[quote]Sifu wrote:
One thing to look for if you are looking for a self defense school how the training divides up.

Free fighting (jiu kumite) gives you certain like timing, reading an opponent and if you are doing it with intesity you will have to toughen up and get used to getting hit.

Free fighting has some limitations though for self defense. On the street you aren’t going to see two guys bow, present a guard then inch across to each other and touch gloves then go at it.

I am sure someone will flame me on this because drills are much maligned on this board, but they have their place.

Most fights don’t start with the hands up in a guard. So one of the things my teacher would have us do is a thing called one step (ippon kumite).

Here is the the basic white belt level. What we did was stand toe to toe with a partner hands relaxed at our sides, one partner would be the attacker(uke) the other the defender(tore). So say he wanted to work on defending against a haymaker style punch to the head, here is what we would do.

Whatever side we were going to work, (left or right) the attacker would on his mark haul off and throw a fullpower punch at the other guys head that he was supposed to pull at the last inch or two before contact. The other guy had to block (not all the uke’s were good at pulling punches) and counter then repeat. This type of training gets painful on the forearms but you really get a feel for blocking from a totally unguarded position.

Now there are ways to make this more advanced and challenging. But the main thing that everyone got is realistic practice at handling the most important part of a fight, the opening shot and we practiced it from a completely unprepared body position. This is something that you aren’t really going to get from sparring where you start off with a safe distance and your hands in a guard.

This kind of training is probably the best way to develop the ability to not get caught off guard even when you are totally unprepared.

I’ll give a story of how it worked for my teacher. He had a perp in the lockup and was filling out paperwork when out of the blue the perp swung on him. My teacher blocked the punch, grappled the arm into a lock and told him, you are going into a cell now and threw him in.

I did a similar thing to a freind who was a drunken asshole who took a swing at the side of my head as I walked through a crowded nightclub. I had no warning whatsoever and I don’t know how I did it. That one step training helped.

So if a school is all sparring and all the training comes from a guard, you might not get all you need for self defense.[/quote]

I agree, all time shouldn’t be spent actually sparring. Not only will this make it extremely difficult to actually work on technique mastery, but it is extremely hard on the body over the long run.

We also practiced techniques in a way similar to the “one step” method that you described. The only difference is that we would never pull our punches. We would simply start out at a slower pace/speed for beginners, or when first learning a movement and then gradually increase speed.

Eventually we would be throwing haymakers at each other full speed full force with intent to actually land the technique. That is the only way that you can actually know that you are capable of defending against an attack.

A couple things of point out about this type of training though.

First, there should be no specific cadence. I remember when I studied Shorin Ryu (and later TKD) that there would be a sort of “on your mark…get set…go” format. This isn’t helping the student out because there will be no such predictable timing or forewarning in a real attack.

So, make sure that the person throwing the technique mixes up their cadence, and during further stages, speed, angles, and possibly throws in some fakes to try to throw off your timing. You need to train with “broken rhythm” while training.

Second, if you really are worried about getting hit, or possibly having your partner hurt their hand (depending on the technique being practiced) it might be a good idea to wear gloves (boxing or mma).

Don’t get in the habit of defending against the technique and stopping, because you will be training yourself to do this. When you encounter a stressful situation your body falls back on what it has been trained to do (through repetition and motor memory).

If you’ve trained it to stop after defending a technique, relax your guard and step back to resume the drill, this is what you will do when the situation actually presents itself.

Instead get in the habit of defending the technique and then either continuing the attack, or at least clearing (ideally at an angle) with your guard and awareness up. Clearing footwork and not pausing on the inside are often times weak areas in a lot of fighters games.

Good training,

Sentoguy

Big_Dave · June 19, 2007, 10:07am

Another thing. Make sure when you train you are scared of your teacher. If he does not demand respect by just being in the room he will not be able to teach you well.

My Bushido teacher threatens to hit me with sticks if i get the technique wrong. He has it in his hand ready. Looking at it now i know he wouldnt hit me because its illegal but at the time you make damn well make sure you get it right!

One time i was over shooting my punches so he held a samuri sword just over arms length away. I new that if my punch was to over shoot i would have hit the sword and taken my fingers off. Wath out for stuff like that with your teachers. If they do it you know your will learn properly.

Sifu · June 19, 2007, 12:17pm

[quote]Big Dave wrote:
Another thing. Make sure when you train you are scared of your teacher. If he does not demand respect by just being in the room he will not be able to teach you well.

My Bushido teacher threatens to hit me with sticks if i get the technique wrong. He has it in his hand ready. Looking at it now i know he wouldnt hit me because its illegal but at the time you make damn well make sure you get it right!

One time i was over shooting my punches so he held a samuri sword just over arms length away. I new that if my punch was to over shoot i would have hit the sword and taken my fingers off. Wath out for stuff like that with your teachers. If they do it you know your will learn properly.[/quote]

ROFLMFAO What is scary is I’ve seen enough that I wonder if he is making it up or not.

Sifu · June 19, 2007, 1:24pm

Good points sentoguy. What I gave was just the basic idea. Ippon kumite is a standard part of quite a few schools. Although we called it Ippon (one point) that was only for the white and yellow belts. As people went up in rank they were expected to follow up with progressively more than one technique.

Black belts were expected to follow up with multiple techniques to multiple targets with no two follow ups being quite the same. This was to get people used to just flowing techniques off the top of their head.

Also one of the sensei’s would give a count but anyone green belt or above was expected to wait a second or two until they swung, so you had to rely on your reflexes and timing instead of just waiting for the count then go through the motion.

Black belts could go on their own timing and random sides. There are a whole bunch of things you can do to make the drills more challenging and effective.

Another thing that is good about Ippon is there are some techniques that are just too dangerous to allow in free fighting because people get excited. It gives a way to safely practice moves you couldn’t practice otherwise and even then with some moves (like neck breaks)it was more about doing the setup because even in ippon people can get excited.

Insurance being what it was we were expected to be able to control our shots and pull them short at least if it was going to the face. Body shots we were expected to take if we missed the block.

I can throw a hard punch at a brick wall and stop it less than an inch away. But that is me. My sensei would say “not everyone in the dojo has good control so you better make sure those blocks are there”. My one buddy was blind without his glasses, he was alyways smacking someone in the head and saying “oh sorry”. He was particularly dangerous in free fighting

Most of us never used pads or gloves but we did use a mouth piece.

Sifu · June 19, 2007, 2:36pm

Cycobushmaster has some good points about what my teacher called “situational awareness”. You need to have you wits about you and realize that even if you aren’t in a fight or in an obviously dangerous situation you need to control your body positioning and distance just in case. As the boy scouts say be prepared.

One of the problems that cops have to be careful of is thinking “I have a gun” and get themselves too close or in a bad position and ended up losing control of their gun.

I got in trouble trying to use pressure point control tactics to stop an assault. I think the best ones are the ones that you use for disarming against weapons. Some people have buried or damaged nerves.

Sometimes you need to know more than where a nerve is you also need to know how to strike it right because you can have overlying or underlying structures that you have to work through or with. It is better to know them, than to not know them though. There is a real art and science to Tuite. That is probably why it’s usually masters who are the ones who are good at it.

Scrappy · June 19, 2007, 6:12pm

A lot of good points here. Ultimately I think you need to find a place to train in some form of self defense, or even learn from multiple sources. But consistent training is probably the number one most important thing. Just like lifting there are 5 million approaches. But consistent training is probably the most important factor in improving.

I agree with some info on this thread and disagree strongly with others. But at the end of the day you must train. If consistency is the most important thing, and I think it is, the school location should be important.

After that, I like to train under the best possible teacher in the area. I pick teachers over styles. If you think BJJ is the best thing ever and the only available teacher is some blue belt who’s never fought, and down the street you also have a renowned striker, I’d go with the striker. Even though personally I began as a striker but much prefer grappling now.

You want to trust the Quality of the information. Not the quantity. I think Mr. Miyagi said that to Daniel-san in the first Karate Kid. But I digress.

I believe that alive training in both a good striking and grappling art is where you should invest a HUGE percentage of your time. And I favor more time in grappling.

But watching a dvd or two, or attending a seminar or a set of classes on styles that use extreme foul tactics (biting, gouging etc), focus on surroundings, improvised weapons, avoidance, negotiation, psychology of attack and fear and awareness are very beneficial.

It is also beneficial to talk to people who have done your job and have been attacked and what they did that worked or what they would do different. Get opinions and experience and ask questions. Learn as much as you can. Then train. In training, you will discover what really works for you as long as training is alive. And you can develop high percentage responses to common situation.

But again I think consistent, alive training in fundamental striking, clinch and ground grappling is where most of the time should be spent. And I mean alive drilling as well as sparring. That should give you much of what you need and in time you’ll be more confident and that really can be a deterrent.

And if ever the day comes where you need to react violently, you will have been in the situation before and your chances of coming out OK will be much greater than if you did no training.

wsk · July 30, 2007, 12:01pm

[quote]texasguy wrote:
subdivision wrote:
texasguy wrote:
just kick the guy in his balls and crack him in the jaw with your night stick.

you really probably don’t need to learn any martial arts actually.

I think you’re right again here. I’ve never know anyone to do a whole lot after a good nutshot. Aggression and fire seem to be more important than technique.

baboons are some of the more aggressively natured and violent animals in the animal kingdom. they are also very strong and could beat most animals and all humans completely senseless in seconds, but they don’t, at least not at first.

first, they attack the nuts if attacking a male and especially when attacking humans.

they rip them right off. then they go for the eyes. within seconds, their victims are blind and nut-less at which time the baboons beat them to death.

there is definately credit to be given to nut shots. you see it on the elementary playgrounds, from angry girlfriends and in nature. they are debilitating.

you might as well utilize it and every other banned move or hold in a real fight.

there is a reason certain things are banned from competition fights, and usually the reason is they are too dangerous to health, which is perfect for a survival situation. [/quote]

Cool info about baboons…but there’s a story in the You vs. A Pit Bull thread about a South African farmer had a pit as his guard dog…it killed 3 baboons at once, completely mutilating them, though it did die of its wounds trying to make its way home afterwards.

I trained with this guy for 2 years - http://www.master-wong.com/
He ALWAYS recommended hitting your opponent in the nuts as quickly as possible, then bringing in elbows/knees to the head as the fastest way to end the conflict/get to safety.

texasguy1 · July 30, 2007, 4:14pm

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
texasguy wrote:
subdivision wrote:
texasguy wrote:
just kick the guy in his balls and crack him in the jaw with your night stick.

you really probably don’t need to learn any martial arts actually.

I think you’re right again here. I’ve never know anyone to do a whole lot after a good nutshot. Aggression and fire seem to be more important than technique.

baboons are some of the more aggressively natured and violent animals in the animal kingdom. they are also very strong and could beat most animals and all humans completely senseless in seconds, but they don’t, at least not at first.

first, they attack the nuts if attacking a male and especially when attacking humans.

they rip them right off. then they go for the eyes. within seconds, their victims are blind and nut-less at which time the baboons beat them to death.

there is definately credit to be given to nut shots. you see it on the elementary playgrounds, from angry girlfriends and in nature. they are debilitating.

you might as well utilize it and every other banned move or hold in a real fight.

there is a reason certain things are banned from competition fights, and usually the reason is they are too dangerous to health, which is perfect for a survival situation.

In my opinion, you should not hit a prisoner in the nuts. Hitting someone in the nuts would be a great self-defense technique if you got jumped one night in an alley. But you will be around these same prisoners for a long time. Which gives them plenty of time to plot revenge. They have nothing to lose. You have your eyes, fingers, teeth, testicles, etc.

Just do your job, don’t try to be a badass. I know a guy who was a prison guard for eight years. He said the best thing is to treat the prisoners with mutual respect. They are there to do their time, you are there to do your job. Don’t make it personal.

Don’t try to be their friend, that’s the worst thing you can do, but don’t be a sadistic bastard either, because you will not succeed in making those guys afraid of you. Just do as much as you have to do to get the job done. No more, no less.

If you have to gouge an eye, or bust some balls to survive, do so. But quit the next day. Good luck.
[/quote]

However the OP asked how to fight off a group of attackers at once, not how to build mutual respect with criminals.

Quick, debilitating shots would be best such as kicking prisoners in the nuts and then cracking them across the jaw with his night stick.

Assuming mutual respect is irrelevant and he is already being attacked (based on his original question), the faster he deals with each prisoner, the smaller his threat becomes.

If you’d like to discuss the benefits of knowing how to defend yourself vs. mutual respect with prisoners, i’m sure you could start a thread.

texasguy1 · July 30, 2007, 4:18pm

[quote]wsk wrote:
texasguy wrote:
subdivision wrote:
texasguy wrote:
just kick the guy in his balls and crack him in the jaw with your night stick.