[quote]subdivision wrote:
Try just looking at a ton of different arts and learning what’s useful from each. Jeet Kune Do, BJJ, Sambo, whatever works. Just make sure you train in a way that will let you fight well. If I’m ever in a class where the teacher doesn’t scare me, I’m not convinced it’s a real martial art. [/quote]
a good idea, but it would be expensive and take years and years to master all the arts enough to pick and choose the most beneficial parts.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
http://standingonthebox.blogspot.com/
Here?s what happens:
A Guido watches a card of UFC fights and decides, after being inspired by Randy Couture, that it?d be a good idea to head down to the local MMA ?dojo? and learn how to kick some ass. That whole getting-punched-in-the-face thing doesn?t really hold much appeal, however, so he figures Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) is the ideal option for someone in his situation.
[/quote]
I read that earlier today. That guy is fucking hilarious…and it’s even more ironic cause I can’t tell you how many guinzos I know that are heading in flocks and droves for the MMA schools.
When it comes down to it, I think that any type of fighting art will be good for you. You need to be used to squaring off with guys, and get used to your heart racing and the adrenaline going and having your hands shake right before you go in. It’s way more mental, keeping your head about you, etc.
I got a buddy who does that BJJ shit, and he talks about “Getting me in the guard” and this move and that one. I told him if he ever had me in the guard I’d punch his balls in, then get two fingers into his right eye, and that’s if one of my buddies didn’t come up and kick his head in.
I always wonder if knowing that kind of stuff breeds overconfidence over everything… the Doorman’s post was dead fucking on.
I train in Krav Maga as well as MMA. I would have to say that there is a huge difference between sport fighting and fighting for your life when caught off guard. Therefore, based off of my experiences, Krav Maga would be worth looking in to.
[quote]csuson wrote:
I train in Krav Maga as well as MMA. I would have to say that there is a huge difference between sport fighting and fighting for your life when caught off guard. Therefore, based off of my experiences, Krav Maga would be worth looking in to.[/quote]
I agree.
I think the OP jumped the gun with this post…I think he’s better off just getting a feel for the environment he’s gonna be working in before asking this question. Therefore,he will get an understanding that the “best martial art for fighting” is not necessarily the best for a prison environment.
BJJ might work if you’re struggling with one person,but you will be nothing but a grease spot on the floor if faced with more than one inmate. Depending on what kind of officer you are to the inmates, they will take advantage of the situation to get some free shots in on a “guard.” Thats if he’s working GP or lockdown(segregation)
Besides if you stay on the ground you’ll be battling the inmate and the concrete…the goal should be to get back to your feet as quick as possible.
we train small unit tactics at my school. and bjj is the staple of army combatives. if you’ll be in a group of ppl (multiple guards) then bjj/groundfighting would not be the worst choice.
a lot of the techniques are fairly easy to learn. and even if all you can acomplish is putting an attacker in your guard, if you have other guards with you, you should be fine.
i think akido would take to much time in order to become effective. a few hours is all it would take to learn basic guard/mount/halfguard positions, along with basic chokes.
just kick the guy in his balls and crack him in the jaw with your night stick.
you really probably don’t need to learn any martial arts actually.
[quote]texasguy wrote:
subdivision wrote:
Try just looking at a ton of different arts and learning what’s useful from each. Jeet Kune Do, BJJ, Sambo, whatever works. Just make sure you train in a way that will let you fight well. If I’m ever in a class where the teacher doesn’t scare me, I’m not convinced it’s a real martial art.
a good idea, but it would be expensive and take years and years to master all the arts enough to pick and choose the most beneficial parts. [/quote]
You’re right, it would take a long time and a lot of money. Buy somebody already did it (Bruce Lee), which is the nice thing. Lee’s Jeet Kune Do is the analysis of about 60 different martial arts. In his lifetime, Lee picked apart about 26 arts, and his genealogical students like Dan Inosanto and Paul Vunak added to the list. Additionally, every person is different so every art is going to work for everyone just a little bit differently. Stout guys with stock legs have trouble with triangles, while the skinny flexible guys who can throw you in a triangle from some who-knows-what position may not have the power in a clinch that the thicker and stockier person may have. On top of that, I think it’s better to spend time trying to find useful things that work rather than to master unpractical things. I’ve found that it doesn’t take a real long time to find what things work as long as you’re training aggressively (but controlled, of course).
Hmm, all this reading makes me think that I should shut up and get on the mat. It’s been too long since I’ve sparred anyway (stupid school schedule)
Speaking of sparring and learning, the most important thing is results, no matter what style(s) you use. I try to find as many training partners as I can who can just beat the crap out of me (humility hurts, man). After I’ve been schooled and my arms and legs feel like they are going to fall off and my throat is burning, I start asking, ‘What was that thing that made it feel like my left arm popped off?’ and then I learn something.
The most important part of learning anything in any martial art (I say this with the measley 1-2 years of training that I have) is losing in the dojo, and learning why you lost, and how to correct it. Period.
[quote]texasguy wrote:
just kick the guy in his balls and crack him in the jaw with your night stick.
you really probably don’t need to learn any martial arts actually. [/quote]
I think you’re right again here. I’ve never know anyone to do a whole lot after a good nutshot. Aggression and fire seem to be more important than technique.
I recommend that you just find the best school in your area, regardless of the art. No martial art is worth a damn if your teacher sucks, and there are a lot of crappy teachers out there. You want to make sure whatever it is you’re are being taught is something that you can actually use.
Sentoguy you teacher sounds like he has some good thing to offer.
Something I would like to point out is this. Whenever someone asks a question like the OP (it happens every few weeks) we get the same basic set of reply’s.
One main theme is people recommending what they have studied and even who they have studied with.
I am trying to be a little more generalized because I don’t know what is available to the op. If he’s in Kansas or Iowa it makes no sense to suggest someone who he may need to go all the way to New York to train with.
I am sure all the guys you suggested are wonderful teachers but. Are they or even one of their students available to the op for him to study with?
With Arnis Dr Presas has his travling seminars and he has a good number of students around the country. Arnis is an art that makes any other art you study better.
With Isshinryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku was the first Okinawan master to take in westerners as students. Because Tatsuo was hired by the marine corp in the 1950’s to train marines, Isshinryu is the most widely practiced okinawan karate in America. The Shimabuku brothers have produced some great fighters. Joe Lewis learned Shorinryu Eizo Shimabuku. Tatsuo trained Kikiyama and Don Nagle.
Something like Krav maga, good luck finding a teacher outside of an area where there aren’t a lot of Israelis. The same goes for a lot of the other suggestions, especially when they are naming individual instructors who have less than a few decades teaching their system to others.
Shotokan karate, but I am biased;) Its also not really the art but the person and the way you practice it. Everything has something to offer…maybe not caporia, unless you plan to break dance fight.
Barney,
Long time no chat. There are any number of good styles. I have a great teacher who is very police/bouncer friendly and he teaches a stand up style of jujitsu that is very practical in real life. There are no contracts, everyone wears street clothes, and he allows us to ask questions or relate real life experiences that do not fit within the confines of a belt chart. The only problem with class is that it’s clear across town and class times are very limited.
This brings me to my point. Everyone says this style or that style is the best but you’ve got to find something not only practical but affordable and fits within your schedule. I think aside from some tournament style karate/tkd or tai chi there are a lot of good styles. I’m sure your line of work is going to have you on 2nd or 3rd shift w/ mid-week days off so look for something compatible.
If class is too far away or times aren’t compatible or the teacher is a jerk you’re probably not going to go as much, just reality. Try to talk to the instructors and see if they offer something practical and will work with you. Some schools are really locked in to belt charts or scripts that just don’t fit in with what you need. Some places even have special classes for cops or even bouncers.
Good luck
[quote]texasguy wrote:
just kick the guy in his balls and crack him in the jaw with your night stick.
you really probably don’t need to learn any martial arts actually. [/quote]
Unfortunately, in kansas they don’t give corrections officers mace or nightsticks, at least in the state prisons.
It seems like there isn’t all that much fighting, as we all swarm in at once, and they stop fighting, or we press the alarm and pray. Pressur point control is what they use to break it up, and good old fashioned haymakers to the head to get them to cuff up.
There are so many options that you all have put out here for me. I really appreciate all of the help. I think I may look into krav maga for starters at least.
Hi Sifu,
Yes, you make a good point concerning the availability of finding schools that teach certain arts. That is why initially I suggested that the OP train with the Lysaks if it was possible, but also wrote that this might not be possible and suggested several arts that are more widely spread.
I also wasn’t trying to suggest that there aren’t karate systems out there that still produce good fighters. I will say however that there are sadly more that train far from realistically and don’t teach their students practical (or useful in many cases) skills. I know a Shotokan instructor who was one of Oshima’s students who has been teaching for 40+ years. If the OP could train with him, I’d suggest that he do so as well.
But, once again, I agree that suggesting that someone train with a specific instructor is ideal, but often times not practical. So, making suggestions concerning arts rather than schools is a better bet. But, I would also much rather suggest an art where all of the schools will teach practical skills rather than just some.
While I am well aware of the differences between real combat and sport combat, I also feel that a boxing/wrestling/bjj school that only taught “sport” techniques would still prepare the OP better than a bad karate school (regardless of the specific style) that just taught him some forms and some pre-arranged fighting techniques designed to defend against techniques that he would never encounter.
Attributes (strength, speed, stamina, aggression, a “never say die” attitude) can make someone a dangerous fighter even without technical expertise. Now, if you add that to technical skill, you get a really dangerous fighter.
Am I saying that I am against forms or practicing techniques against compliant training partners? No. Every technique has some “form” from a jab, to a double leg, to an eye attack, to a bite, etc…etc…etc…
And I also feel that it’s important to devote time to perfecting technique. I also realize that in order to do so you need to work with a compliant opponent at times.
But, if that’s all you ever do then that’s not going to prepare you for combat very well. You need to actually test what you do against someone else who is trying to hurt you. Not just for the physical preparation either. The mental aspects are as, if not more, important as well.
Unfortunately, a lot of TMA schools operate in this fashion. At least that’s the way it is out in my neck of the woods. I suspect that out on the west coast things might be different. But once again, not knowing the OP’s exactly location, I feel it’s dangerous suggesting a TMA.
I also agree with you on the notion of attending seminars when the option presents itself. If the OP can attend a seminar with Presas, do it. Joe Lewis, do it. Lysak, do it. Gracie, do it. Etc…
Video supplementary training is also a good option. Sure, it’s not nearly as beneficial as actually training with a master instructor. But, if you are also actually training and therefore have some basic foundational system, or someone who you can ask to correct your form or practice with, then this can be a good learning tool.
I also feel that Sento will improve any art out there when it comes to real combat. Even just using Lysak’s dvds as supplementary tools to learn the basic concepts in Sento will benefit just about anyone.
Which is one of the things that I like about it so much. If the student already has a good foundation in another art, then learning and implementing the concepts in Sento will only help them to improve as a fighter.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]subdivision wrote:
texasguy wrote:
just kick the guy in his balls and crack him in the jaw with your night stick.
you really probably don’t need to learn any martial arts actually.
I think you’re right again here. I’ve never know anyone to do a whole lot after a good nutshot. Aggression and fire seem to be more important than technique. [/quote]
baboons are some of the more aggressively natured and violent animals in the animal kingdom. they are also very strong and could beat most animals and all humans completely senseless in seconds, but they don’t, at least not at first.
first, they attack the nuts if attacking a male and especially when attacking humans.
they rip them right off. then they go for the eyes. within seconds, their victims are blind and nut-less at which time the baboons beat them to death.
there is definately credit to be given to nut shots. you see it on the elementary playgrounds, from angry girlfriends and in nature. they are debilitating.
you might as well utilize it and every other banned move or hold in a real fight.
there is a reason certain things are banned from competition fights, and usually the reason is they are too dangerous to health, which is perfect for a survival situation.
Any kind of a Ryu is an Okinawan based martial art. These guys are Kenpo and Shotokan. One thing I really love about Kenpo is the flow they have. Jeff Speakman is a good example of how the kempo people will just flow a barrage of techniques.
A lot of martial arts have lost that flow and have a real stiff mechanical nature to them. You can’t throw combinations without flow. I looked at a schools web page. I question some of their history but, if that is what is in you area they look like they might be worth checking out. At least they aren’t going to turn you into a awkward robot.
I meant this for the Kenshoryu question
One thing to look for if you are looking for a self defense school how the training divides up.
Free fighting (jiu kumite) gives you certain like timing, reading an opponent and if you are doing it with intesity you will have to toughen up and get used to getting hit.
Free fighting has some limitations though for self defense. On the street you aren’t going to see two guys bow, present a guard then inch across to each other and touch gloves then go at it.
I am sure someone will flame me on this because drills are much maligned on this board, but they have their place.
Most fights don’t start with the hands up in a guard. So one of the things my teacher would have us do is a thing called one step (ippon kumite).
Here is the the basic white belt level. What we did was stand toe to toe with a partner hands relaxed at our sides, one partner would be the attacker(uke) the other the defender(tore). So say he wanted to work on defending against a haymaker style punch to the head, here is what we would do.
Whatever side we were going to work, (left or right) the attacker would on his mark haul off and throw a fullpower punch at the other guys head that he was supposed to pull at the last inch or two before contact. The other guy had to block (not all the uke’s were good at pulling punches) and counter then repeat. This type of training gets painful on the forearms but you really get a feel for blocking from a totally unguarded position.
Now there are ways to make this more advanced and challenging. But the main thing that everyone got is realistic practice at handling the most important part of a fight, the opening shot and we practiced it from a completely unprepared body position. This is something that you aren’t really going to get from sparring where you start off with a safe distance and your hands in a guard.
This kind of training is probably the best way to develop the ability to not get caught off guard even when you are totally unprepared.
I’ll give a story of how it worked for my teacher. He had a perp in the lockup and was filling out paperwork when out of the blue the perp swung on him. My teacher blocked the punch, grappled the arm into a lock and told him, you are going into a cell now and threw him in.
I did a similar thing to a freind who was a drunken asshole who took a swing at the side of my head as I walked through a crowded nightclub. I had no warning whatsoever and I don’t know how I did it. That one step training helped.
So if a school is all sparring and all the training comes from a guard, you might not get all you need for self defense.
[quote]BarneyFife wrote:
I am in my final week of academy at the dept of corrections. We only had a 3 hour course on pressure points, and they showed us a couple of fighting manuvers. I will be working in max security cell-houses, as the corrections officer 1. They run to any alarms, and the sergeants stay in the cell houses.
I may or may not fight frequently, but I will have to fight, mabybe only a couple times a month, maybe a couple times a day, depending on how many alarms there are. In kansas, we don’t have mace or nightsticks. The riot squad has mace, but regular officers like me will be the ones to respond first.
I know how to hit people, but I was wondering if someone could recommend the best martial art to learn to break up a fight, and what the best martial art for fighting multiple attackers would be. I have considered just taking boxing lessons, but I am not sure if there would be a better tool to learn.[/quote]
have you had a chance to see what schools are available to you?
i’m a police officer (and NG Infantryman), and have studied Muay Thai, Katate(Tang Soo Do), and wrestled and boxed a bit.
from my experience, having good awareness and “posture” helps a lot…if you position yourself well in most situations, people are less apt to fight, since they don’t have the advantage they want. and since you’re working in a prison, you wanna be strong and have good endurance. those guys have all day to exercise and rest.
as far as the perfect art…i dunno. it depends on your build, and how comfortable you feel in certain ranges.
i have no problem in striking range, and hate grappling. i do know the core moves of BJJ, but that’s so i can get back up, or restrain them and cuff 'em.
as far as pressure points-on the street, they’re worthless. i know there are some people who are really good at applying them, but if you can handcuff somebody, why waste the time searching for some nerve.
i’d suggst seeing what’s available, and talking to your fellow officers and see what they think is applicable to where you work.
good luck.
Cyco
p.s. verbalization is one of the best things for breaking up a fight. don’t just wade in and start trying to end it…let them know you’re there and that the fight is over. sometimes fights are designed to get you involved, and they jump you when you arrive.
it might not seem liek it, but you have all day to end the fight. the prisoners are contained, you have back-up coming, and you know who the offenders are. don’t be too quick to jump in if something doesn’t seem right…
[quote]texasguy wrote:
subdivision wrote:
texasguy wrote:
just kick the guy in his balls and crack him in the jaw with your night stick.
you really probably don’t need to learn any martial arts actually.
I think you’re right again here. I’ve never know anyone to do a whole lot after a good nutshot. Aggression and fire seem to be more important than technique.
baboons are some of the more aggressively natured and violent animals in the animal kingdom. they are also very strong and could beat most animals and all humans completely senseless in seconds, but they don’t, at least not at first.
first, they attack the nuts if attacking a male and especially when attacking humans.
they rip them right off. then they go for the eyes. within seconds, their victims are blind and nut-less at which time the baboons beat them to death.
there is definately credit to be given to nut shots. you see it on the elementary playgrounds, from angry girlfriends and in nature. they are debilitating.
you might as well utilize it and every other banned move or hold in a real fight.
there is a reason certain things are banned from competition fights, and usually the reason is they are too dangerous to health, which is perfect for a survival situation. [/quote]
In my opinion, you should not hit a prisoner in the nuts. Hitting someone in the nuts would be a great self-defense technique if you got jumped one night in an alley. But you will be around these same prisoners for a long time. Which gives them plenty of time to plot revenge. They have nothing to lose. You have your eyes, fingers, teeth, testicles, etc.
Just do your job, don’t try to be a badass. I know a guy who was a prison guard for eight years. He said the best thing is to treat the prisoners with mutual respect. They are there to do their time, you are there to do your job. Don’t make it personal.
Don’t try to be their friend, that’s the worst thing you can do, but don’t be a sadistic bastard either, because you will not succeed in making those guys afraid of you. Just do as much as you have to do to get the job done. No more, no less.
If you have to gouge an eye, or bust some balls to survive, do so. But quit the next day. Good luck.