Because everyone knows sporting arts have NO carryover to actual fighting, just like how sport shooting doesn’t carry over into actually firing a gun.
-Gendou
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
slimjim wrote:
You know, a prison guard bitching about being called a guard is about the same as a custodian bitching about being called a janitor…
LOL. I was thinking the same thing. There’s something being lectured about terminology by someone who is about to devote his life to working around sweaty, stinky men who regularly gang rape each other in what’s basically a zoo that motivates a guy to say: “Spare me.”[/quote]
Glad to see that you think so highly of the officers who keep violent criminals off of the street.
Check this out:
Very effective/realistic. The main guy is ex-SAS. It seems aimed at fast knock outs or, if necessary, death. There’s a whole DVD on ‘cage to street’, making MMA real world.
Where does someone learn how to “real” fight?
[quote]StevenF wrote:
Where does someone learn how to “real” fight? [/quote]
You can’t. It is a natural born ability. You don’t have it.
[quote]rmccart1 wrote:
I have to wonder why people are recommending Muay Thai, BJJ, boxing, and other sporting arts to this man. That’s one of the reasons I don’t care too much for MMA–people think it’s real fighting.[/quote]
Maybe because bjj has a self defense/ real world aspect taught in many schools. Which is why where I train there are several mental institution and prison guard workers, soldiers, spec ops, feds, state and local law enforcement who all have used what they learn to survive and most of whom have trained in several other ‘arts/styles’ before coming across something that actually works. Of course there are sport bjj and mma guys where I train and their training is different, but for restraint there is probably no better training than realistic grappling. The interesting thing is all the guys who train more for law enforcement or ‘the street’ will be the first ones to tell you the ‘sport’ mma guys, the ones at a high level, will usually run through them.
Look for a well rounded art, one that includes, Throws, Joint manipulation, grappling, Sriking, high kicks, low kicks, some weapons, etc etc. This is HARD to find, you might jsut end up taking a few differnt arts separatly; boxing, tae kwon do, judo, Kali. I persoanlly was very fortunate to find a school that is unique and teaches all of this as a unique hybrid of Tae Kwon Do, we practiced everything from advanced judo type throws to Jump spinning high kicks, to knife fighting. We also had a separte Kali program. We were also very fortuante to have direct access to two of the highest ranking, most well respected masters in both arts. in summary, being well rounded is the best option. there is no ONE best art.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
StevenF wrote:
Where does someone learn how to “real” fight?
You can’t. It is a natural born ability. You don’t have it.[/quote]
Agreed, if you have to ask this question, you’re not a fighter. I became fairly proficiicent in my styles of choice but was and still am not a fighter.
[quote]StevenF wrote:
Where does someone learn how to “real” fight? [/quote]
at a bar. go to a bar, pick a fight, get your ass kicked and learn as you go.
though it’s only a movie, fight club wasn’t far off when they said people first are pretty soft, but after a few fights toughen up.
it’s more experience than anything.
training in a fighting style gives you as close to a real fight experience as possible without really fighting.
Aw sweet, I hope one day I can be tough. Thanks guys!
[quote]StevenF wrote:
Aw sweet, I hope one day I can be tough. Thanks guys! [/quote]
mr. potatoe heads will never be tough.
[quote]rmccart1 wrote:
I have to wonder why people are recommending Muay Thai, BJJ, boxing, and other sporting arts to this man. That’s one of the reasons I don’t care too much for MMA–people think it’s real fighting.[/quote]
People don’t think that MMA is real fighting (at least those in the know), but they also realize that the combative nature of these arts is invaluable to someone wanting to learn how to defend themselves.
The problem with a lot of “self defense” programs is that they bring up a lot of good points, and may even have some good ideas. But, because very few of them actually have the students sparring full speed, full contact, they will never be able to actually pull any of their techniques off in real time.
Sure, there are some MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai schools that only cater to sporting events. But, there are certainly others who include “street effective” tactics.
The system I train in, which I mentioned before, (Lysak’s Sento method) teaches Jiu-Jitsu (it’s not technically BJJ since the lysaks didn’t learn their JJ from the Gracies), kickboxing (which includes boxing and Muay Thai), wrestling, judo, weapons, street effective techniques, cerebral self defense, postural self defense, verbal self defense, modern ninjutsu (stealth, survival skills, climbing skills, etc…), etc…etc…etc…
Basically everything you would need to know to effectively defend yourself in a real fight. Both Shihan Walt and Shihan Charlie have been in countless real fights (especially Shihan Charlie) and believe me when I say, their stuff works.
That’s why there are numerous law enforcement, correctional officers, military personel, and martial artists from other arts who come to train with the Lysaks.
This is the same reason why a lot of BJJ schools get the same types of people who come to them. Plain and simple, the stuff works and teaches the student valuable skill sets and attributes that carry over to real combat.
Good training,
Sentoguy
I would say take a good Executive protection course and see if you can get them to pay for it. Usually a 2 week course.
And kickboxing is not muay thai. No clinch, no knees, no elbows, but that is a separate topic.
if you don’t want to go that far try a compliance and escort course.
CDT? Non-deadly Force Training
is one good way to start.
or look into an academy near you that teaches multiple martial arts and focuses on protection work.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
I would say take a good Executive protection course and see if you can get them to pay for it. Usually a 2 week course.
And kickboxing is not muay thai. No clinch, no knees, no elbows, but that is a separate topic.
[/quote]
Well, that depends on who you learn it from. No the actual sport of kickboxing doesn’t allow clinch fighting, but that doesn’t mean that kickboxing schools don’t teach that.
The kickboxing that I learned is Joe Lewis’s American Kickboxing, and it does include clinch, elbows, knees, headbutts, throws/takedowns, as well as techniques from Burmese kickboxing (which is where Muay Thai originated from) that you can’t do in any sporting context (muay thai, kickboxing, san shou, or even MMA). So, I guess it really depends on the school.
Try just looking at a ton of different arts and learning what’s useful from each. Jeet Kune Do, BJJ, Sambo, whatever works. Just make sure you train in a way that will let you fight well. If I’m ever in a class where the teacher doesn’t scare me, I’m not convinced it’s a real martial art.
To the op one problem you are going to find whenever you put a post like yours up, is you are going to get a lot more dumb ideas than good ones. Martial arts is one of those things where you find a lot of hype, so it becomes difficult to figure out where to go. So I am going to try and give you some general rules of thumb.
One thing that you are going to find is very common amongst martial artists is there is a real tendency to think whatever style they came up in is the greatest. Generally the reason why someone trains in a particular style is that was what was locally available. You see this also with sporting teams usually people support their local team and are feircly loyal, but if you ask them why they can’t give you a good reason.
I got real lucky because when I was a kid what was locally available was an art that really did take a step forward from what had existed previously and I can give you good philosophical reasons why.
Here is a short list. We don’t use deep heavy stances like you see in traditional karate or krav maga instead we use narrower lighter stances that offer greater mobility.
We use natural body positioning based upon the way the human body works instead of unatural postitioning learned from watching insects or cats or other creatures. This makes the style I learned a quick learn style because all the movements have been minimalized and the movements aren’t awkwardly trying to imitate some other animal. Minimalized movements are quicker to respond with. This was one of the things I didn’t like about
Aikido as a base art it was real awkward to get some of the movements and I am usually fairly good at stuff like that.
We don’t throw kicks or punches past 90 percent extension which is a big departure from traditional karate where all kicks and punches are thrown to 100 percent extension and the joints locked out. The reason for this is we try to stay closer to our opponenet than traditional karate. So 90 percent gives us the ability to throw rapid fire and because we don’t lockout our elbow or knee on a kick or punch it is a lot harder for someone like a grappler to break one of those joints with a lock.
We use double bone deflection (soft)blocking instead of single bone hard blocking like you’ll see the krav maga or Bas Rutten in his barroom hardass video. You would not want to block a basball bat to the head the way Bas does his overhead block in his video the bat would just go right trough the first bone then the second.
It’s easy to say you have a street fighting system and put out a video of someone repeatedly elbowing someone in the face like the sas guy. My crticism of him would be tunnel vision resulting from a lack of techniques. He does have fighting mutiples better than the krav maga video which showed the Hollywood way to fight multiples.
As nice as it is to be able to count on backup as a corrections officer. Don’t count on your fellow officers too much because you could get a false sense of security. One of the worst fights I ever saw was one of my freinds against multiple oopponents. They were thrashing around so much I didn’t even realize it was one of my freinds till it was over. A couple of weeks later when I found myself on the floor of the same bar fending off people, I had a moment to reflect upon that incident as I started thinking, “this has been going on for at least 30 seconds where the hell are my freinds”.
Scrappy and Cali Law had a good point, learning an art like grappling also teaches you how to counter grapple to some extent. This is why I suggested Arnis to learn knife fighting. If you know the do’s and don’ts it is easier to catch someone slipping.
The down side of training heavily in grappling is the tendency in fights to get tunnel vision and you do what you trained. You don’t want to get tied up grappling one guy while the rest of your team is getting chased out of the cellblock by the Aryan nation.
Tunnel vision is a good example of a real world problem that people in law enforcement have to be very wary of. In mixed martial arts competitions where you have one weight class matched opponent to worry about and a referee who is going to keep other people out of it that singular focus can be deadly. This is one example of how even something as good as mma can teach you bad habits that will get you killed on the street.
I’ll give you another example, groin strikes are illegal in mma because they would lose %90 of their audience overnight and quite a few fighters as well. Most MMA fighters are piss poor at guarding thier groin look at Matt Hughes vs GSP.
I guarantee you people in jail aren’t going to use Marquess of Queensbury or Nevada athletic commission rules. The rules have molded the way MM artists fight. It’s a lot easier to square off into a wrestler stance when there is a rule that says the other guy can’t kick you in the groin, but if he does kick you in the groin more than once you automatically win the fight.
In the real world if someone gets nailed in the groin you aren’t going to see them running around with their legs spread asking their opponent for another one like Matt Hughes did to GSP.
So it is important to keep in mind that any fight sport can teach you bad habits because safety rules can teach you a false sense of security. There are a lot of karate schools that don’t hit to the head at all, as a result there are plenty of stories of some blackbelt who got their clock cleaned by some average club boxer. It doesn’t mean boxing is superior as a self defense art, it’s just a limitation in their training.
In my class we couldn’t go head hunting but we were allowed to keep the other guy honest if he wasn’t doing anything to protect his head. My teacher said guard your head if for no other reason than people get excited. Matt Hughes doesn’t guard his groin, GSP got excited one time and POW Hughes is on the floor looking like he’s never been hit like that before.
So some good choices for an art are Arnis, jiu jitsu, Uechi ryu. Isshin ryu karate can be an excellent system to start in with one major caveat, there are a lot of people teaching a bastardized form that has been heavily influenced by traditionalists from other systems joining and bringing their old ways of thinking. There are a lot of cops that use Isshinryu because it has a good repertoire of techniques from kicking to punching to elbowing to grappling and joint locking. Small joint locking is what you need for gun and knife disarming but it is illegal in mma.
Unless you are already accomplished as a martial artist, I would stay away from rare hard to find systems. Get yourself a basic foundation first in something that has a fair number of practitioners. Gracie JJ, Arnis, Isshinryu, there is a body of practioners who have used these systems with varying degrees of success they aren’t just one guy with a bunch of trophys. What is working for a Fedor or a Chuck Liddell isn’t always going to be so useful for Joe average, even though those guys can demolish %99-100 of the human race.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
To the op one problem you are going to find whenever you put a post like yours up, is you are going to get a lot more dumb ideas than good ones. Martial arts is one of those things where you find a lot of hype, so it becomes difficult to figure out where to go. So I am going to try and give you some general rules of thumb.
One thing that you are going to find is very common amongst martial artists is there is a real tendency to think whatever style they came up in is the greatest. Generally the reason why someone trains in a particular style is that was what was locally available. You see this also with sporting teams usually people support their local team and are feircly loyal, but if you ask them why they can’t give you a good reason.
I got real lucky because when I was a kid what was locally available was an art that really did take a step forward from what had existed previously and I can give you good philosophical reasons why.
Here is a short list. We don’t use deep heavy stances like you see in traditional karate or krav maga instead we use narrower lighter stances that offer greater mobility.
We use natural body positioning based upon the way the human body works instead of unatural postitioning learned from watching insects or cats or other creatures. This makes the style I learned a quick learn style because all the movements have been minimalized and the movements aren’t awkwardly trying to imitate some other animal. Minimalized movements are quicker to respond with. This was one of the things I didn’t like about
Aikido as a base art it was real awkward to get some of the movements and I am usually fairly good at stuff like that.
We don’t throw kicks or punches past 90 percent extension which is a big departure from traditional karate where all kicks and punches are thrown to 100 percent extension and the joints locked out. The reason for this is we try to stay closer to our opponenet than traditional karate. So 90 percent gives us the ability to throw rapid fire and because we don’t lockout our elbow or knee on a kick or punch it is a lot harder for someone like a grappler to break one of those joints with a lock.
We use double bone deflection (soft)blocking instead of single bone hard blocking like you’ll see the krav maga or Bas Rutten in his barroom hardass video. You would not want to block a basball bat to the head the way Bas does his overhead block in his video the bat would just go right trough the first bone then the second.
It’s easy to say you have a street fighting system and put out a video of someone repeatedly elbowing someone in the face like the sas guy. My crticism of him would be tunnel vision resulting from a lack of techniques. He does have fighting mutiples better than the krav maga video which showed the Hollywood way to fight multiples.
As nice as it is to be able to count on backup as a corrections officer. Don’t count on your fellow officers too much because you could get a false sense of security. One of the worst fights I ever saw was one of my freinds against multiple oopponents. They were thrashing around so much I didn’t even realize it was one of my freinds till it was over. A couple of weeks later when I found myself on the floor of the same bar fending off people, I had a moment to reflect upon that incident as I started thinking, “this has been going on for at least 30 seconds where the hell are my freinds”.
Scrappy and Cali Law had a good point, learning an art like grappling also teaches you how to counter grapple to some extent. This is why I suggested Arnis to learn knife fighting. If you know the do’s and don’ts it is easier to catch someone slipping.
The down side of training heavily in grappling is the tendency in fights to get tunnel vision and you do what you trained. You don’t want to get tied up grappling one guy while the rest of your team is getting chased out of the cellblock by the Aryan nation.
Tunnel vision is a good example of a real world problem that people in law enforcement have to be very wary of. In mixed martial arts competitions where you have one weight class matched opponent to worry about and a referee who is going to keep other people out of it that singular focus can be deadly. This is one example of how even something as good as mma can teach you bad habits that will get you killed on the street.
I’ll give you another example, groin strikes are illegal in mma because they would lose %90 of their audience overnight and quite a few fighters as well. Most MMA fighters are piss poor at guarding thier groin look at Matt Hughes vs GSP.
I guarantee you people in jail aren’t going to use Marquess of Queensbury or Nevada athletic commission rules. The rules have molded the way MM artists fight. It’s a lot easier to square off into a wrestler stance when there is a rule that says the other guy can’t kick you in the groin, but if he does kick you in the groin more than once you automatically win the fight.
In the real world if someone gets nailed in the groin you aren’t going to see them running around with their legs spread asking their opponent for another one like Matt Hughes did to GSP.
So it is important to keep in mind that any fight sport can teach you bad habits because safety rules can teach you a false sense of security. There are a lot of karate schools that don’t hit to the head at all, as a result there are plenty of stories of some blackbelt who got their clock cleaned by some average club boxer. It doesn’t mean boxing is superior as a self defense art, it’s just a limitation in their training.
In my class we couldn’t go head hunting but we were allowed to keep the other guy honest if he wasn’t doing anything to protect his head. My teacher said guard your head if for no other reason than people get excited. Matt Hughes doesn’t guard his groin, GSP got excited one time and POW Hughes is on the floor looking like he’s never been hit like that before.
So some good choices for an art are Arnis, jiu jitsu, Uechi ryu. Isshin ryu karate can be an excellent system to start in with one major caveat, there are a lot of people teaching a bastardized form that has been heavily influenced by traditionalists from other systems joining and bringing their old ways of thinking. There are a lot of cops that use Isshinryu because it has a good repertoire of techniques from kicking to punching to elbowing to grappling and joint locking. Small joint locking is what you need for gun and knife disarming but it is illegal in mma.
Unless you are already accomplished as a martial artist, I would stay away from rare hard to find systems. Get yourself a basic foundation first in something that has a fair number of practitioners. Gracie JJ, Arnis, Isshinryu, there is a body of practioners who have used these systems with varying degrees of success they aren’t just one guy with a bunch of trophys. What is working for a Fedor or a Chuck Liddell isn’t always going to be so useful for Joe average, even though those guys can demolish %99-100 of the human race.[/quote]
Very good post Sifu. I had a long thought out reply to this post all typed up, when my computer crashed and I lost it. I don’t really feel like typing it all back out, so I’ll just address a few key points.
First, I wasn’t arguing with you on your suggestion to learn arnis. I was simply stating that I don’t feel that arnis’s edged weapons tactics are very practical. Nor do I feel that Kali’s edged weapons tactics are very practical either. Sure, I’ve learned both and don’t feel like they’re a total waste of time (they do develop useful attributes), but I honestly wouldn’t suggest someone try using them in a real fight against an edged weapon.
Like I stated before, Richard Ryan’s Dynamic Combat Method has the most no nonsense practical edged weapons tactics that I’ve ever seen. That would be the system that I would direct someone to if they were looking to be able to defend themselves against an attacker with an edged weapon.
Second, yes sport combat systems can teach bad habits, if the adaptations necessary for real combat aren’t addressed. And while I admit that there are certainly schools that don’t do this, there are also those that do.
Third, I think that’s great that you found a system that you think is a good fit for you. I was likewise lucky that I stumbled onto Sento. Some reasons why include:
Walt and Charlie Lysak are among the best fighters on the planet. They have world class striking skills, are among the best grapplers in the world (Matt Serra actually told Walt that he was hands down “the best grappler I’ve ever seen”), they can trap, they can use weapons (including firearms), etc…etc…etc…
Along with some of the best grappling and striking instruction anywhere, Sento also teaches “street effective techniques”. In other words, basically everything that you can’t do in MMA, but you can do in a real fight. Biting, groin attacks, eye attacks, nerve attackes, body handles, small digit locks, and weaponry. Basically, Sento instills an “anything goes” mindset into the student.
Even though Walt and Charlie have reached a level of skill and expertise that few will ever reach, they remain humble and continue to learn all that they can. Thus they are constantly integrating new tactics, information and strategies into Sento. Meaning that the system is constantly evolving and improving.
Shihan Charlie is among the most physically overpowering, freakishly strong people I have ever seen. And, not only is he a physical beast, but his Primal Strength programs can turn other people into physical specimens as well.
Sento addresses not only the physical side of combat, but also the psychological, emotional, and even spiritual aspects as well. The moral implications are also taught. Meaning that the system teaches the students not only how to fight, but also why to fight.
High ranking students from other systems, upon seeing what Shihan Walt and Charlie teach and can do, are willing to take off their black belts and strap on white belts in order to learn from these men. That alone has to tell you something (especially because belts in Sento don’t come easy).
Which brings me to another reason. In Sento, you actually earn your belt. I personally don’t give much though to a lot of black belts out there, as their tests to get those black belts are often times a joke. In Sento, if you get a black belt, that says something. By the way, there are certainly other systems out there that I consider to also be deserving of a lot of credit if someone achieves a black belt in them.
Walt and Charlie have lots of real world experience and have tested what they do numerous times. Charlie in particular used to go around looking for fights, in his youth, and has been stabbed, shot, had bricks smashed over his head, been hit with all sorts of impact weapons, etc…But, he’s since changed his ways and no longer goes around looking for fights. But, I’d still hate to be someone who makes the mistake of picking a fight with him. 
They also have numerous law enforcement (swat, state and local police), and military personal (master sergeant green beret, special forces operatives) who train with them and swear by what they teach. Keep in mind that these men may actually use lethal force in the line of duty to save innocent (and their own) lives.
Ok, so sorry that this post turned out to be sort of a small infomercial about the benefits of Sento. I guess I was just responding to your comments about “staying away from rare hard to find systems”.
If the OP can train in Sento then I strongly suggest that he do so. If not, then I still stand by my suggestions of a grappling art (BJJ, Sambo, Greco, Freestyle, Judo), and a striking art (boxing, muay thai, american kickboxing). Beyond that if he wants to get some instructional dvds concerning “street effective” tactics to round out his training, then of course do so. Shihan Lysak’s DVDs are great.
I know there are some good karate schools out there that do actually teach useful practical skills, but they are hard to find. And there are sadly a lot more out there that teach crap. The advantage of boxing, muay thai, and kickboxing over most karate systems is that those systems have the students strap on protective gear (gloves, mouth guard, head gear, shin guards) and actually spar full contact. Most Karate schools don’t do that.
Part of learning to box/kickbox is learning how to take a punch. You can’t do that if you’re never actually getting hit.
To the OP, good luck with what ever you decide to do, and stay safe.
Sentoguy
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Aikido for restraining single attackers.
Psychology of fear for dissuading multiple wannabe attackers.
Anything with low to medium height powerful kicks for repelling multiple actual attackers.
A big fuck off sword?
Bushy[/quote]
Definatly bushido!!
It is without a doubt the best martial art for taking on thugs and street fighters. Got attacked in town the other day and came out of it unharmed using bushido. Your going to be dealing with similar types of people. and its fun!!
What about Kensho-Ryu Karate?
http://standingonthebox.blogspot.com/
Here?s what happens:
A Guido watches a card of UFC fights and decides, after being inspired by Randy Couture, that it?d be a good idea to head down to the local MMA ?dojo? and learn how to kick some ass. That whole getting-punched-in-the-face thing doesn?t really hold much appeal, however, so he figures Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) is the ideal option for someone in his situation.
You learn how to choke people and break their arms, and you don?t have to take punches if you don?t want to.
The Guido signs a $150-a-month contract at the nearest Gracie-approved outlet and gets to work. His tuition grants him two hours of beginner classes per week, and his game rapidly improves. After six months, he can get you in a kimura, a rear naked choke, a guillotine and a triangle. He?s deadly with these moves.
He knows how to do these things in class. He starts calling himself a ?fighter.?
The problem here is that our Guido doesn?t compete. He doesn?t do any training other than his two hours a week on the mat. Sure, he goes to the gym and does ?chest and arms? five days a week, but that?s for vanity. That?s for the club. Squats are for the frustrated. Sparring is dangerous. Curls get the girls.
He has no idea what to do if someone actually decides to fight back.
Eventually, push comes to shove and the Guido gets into a scrap at the club. He squares off with someone ? maybe a bouncer, maybe not ? and eats a few shots to the jaw. He?s ?lumped up,? and he?s swept onto the sidewalk. He remembers his months of training and he?s infuriated. Everyone needs to know this. Off comes his shirt.
?Yo, I do Jiu-Jitsu, motherfuckers! None of you motherfuckin? juicehead motherfuckers can fight me one-on-one! Yo, you need yo? boys wit?chu, right??
Of course, the Guido is erroneously operating under the assumption that he?s the only one on the sidewalk who?s ever been trained in any kind of fighting art. He?s also mistakenly assuming that a combined fifty hours of ?experience? in a BJJ school renders him dangerous to anyone other than himself.
And, as every card-carrying Guido knows, bouncers in New York don?t know how to fight.
You know exactly what happens next. The smart Guido walks away. The dumb one ? the twenty-two year old who slapped the UFC tattoo on his shoulder after two months of ?training? ? tests this hypothesis and feels what it?s really like.
The best part is this: no matter how hard you hit them, their hair never moves.