Best Martial Art to Enroll Daughters In?

Training
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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
zecarlo wrote

And how many of those videos were created with law enforcement and rape experts involvement?

I have no idea. I’m sure every one of them had some kind of expert. But I’d rather read something by reputable people like Loren Christensen (former cop and MP) or Geoff Thompson, people who have experienced it on an everyday basis.

So, if your friend is fighting and it’s on the feet you won’t step in but if it’s on the ground you’ll jump in?

No, if it’s on the feet I’ll step in to. I’ve done it.

You sound like a punk.

No better or worse than anyone else. The funny part is that I’m a nobody, and certainly not a predator in any way. If you think I’m a punk, the ferocity of some of the cats you come across would astound you.

Go ahead and kick someone in the head when they can’t defend themselves. If they end up dead or with a severe injury you’ll find out how effective your fighting ability is when you get raped in prison.

Say what you want. This is how these things work. Stick to the ring junior. I’m done with you.[/quote]

OK, I get it, you’re a tough guy and know everything about rape defense. I guess we know what kind of bars you must frequent to have learned that.

Fact is, grappler beats striker. Live with it. All of the other factors, friends. weapons, etc., won’t be overcome by striking either. Oh wait, I know, you’re Chuck Norris so you can beat multiple armed attackers with your fists and eye pokes. The early Vale Tudos in Brazil had much fewer rules than mma has today and guess what? BJJ still won.

Take the gold medal winning HW boxer in the Olympics and have him fight the gold medal winning wrestler and the wrestler will win, be it the ring, cage, bar or parking lot.

So you’ve been in more “real” fights than me. I don’t know if that makes you tougher or the better fighter but I do know that it makes me smarter. I’m done with you, Chuck Lee.

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[quote]zecarlo wrote:

Fact is, grappler beats striker. Live with it. All of the other factors, friends. weapons, etc., won’t be overcome by striking either. Oh wait, I know, you’re Chuck Norris so you can beat multiple armed attackers with your fists and eye pokes. The early Vale Tudos in Brazil had much fewer rules than mma has today and guess what? BJJ still won.

Take the gold medal winning HW boxer in the Olympics and have him fight the gold medal winning wrestler and the wrestler will win, be it the ring, cage, bar or parking lot.

So you’ve been in more “real” fights than me. I don’t know if that makes you tougher or the better fighter but I do know that it makes me smarter. I’m done with you, Chuck Lee. [/quote]

You are fucking crazy if you think grappling can beat striking.
And you are crazy if you think a striker will always beat a grappler.
The beauty of striking is you can hit your opponent either whether he’s close to you, or far. Whereas grappling only works when you are close.
If i’m fighting a wrestler or grappler in the street, I’m going to stay low and get ready to punch or knee his head.
In either case, whoever gets the first hit (as Irish rightly stated) will usually win. If the boxer delivers a punch (before the wrestler can take him down), then the wrestler is fucked.
If the wrestler can get to the boxer and take him down before the boxer can throw a punch, then the boxer is fucked (suplexing someone onto concrete will most likely kill them).
Let me ask you, though…which one do you think would be easier to do?
I’d put my money on the puncher.

Now, the fact that Irish has been in many fights does not make him smarter or dumber than you. He lives in a dangerous part of new jersey so it’s probably not always his fault.
However, what it does make him is more knowledgeable than you.
Real world experience makes the difference. You cannot argue that.
Grappling looks good on paper, but on the street it’s death waiting to happen.

And whether grappling is better or not is besides the point.

A woman is what she is: Physical inferior (no disrespect meant) to a man.
Technique is important but being able to out muscle someone can also contribute to a win…especially in grappling.
I wrestle and because i’m a smaller and lighter guy, i wrestle with some of the woman so that they can work on their strength and i can work on my technique (i try to use as least strength as possible).
There have been many instances where the woman who had been practicing (and she was taller and a bit heavier than I) for years could not pin me just because i was strong enough to out muscle her. I’m a small man and I could do this almost effortlessly.

Same goes for karate. I have taken kicks and punches from women but the thing is that i couldn’t muscle my way over the technique. When they kicked me to the face, they got me. I didn’t go down and i wasn’t hurt, but they had effectively kicked me in the face. If they had been wearing pointy shoes or whatever, it could have been a serious injury.
It’s hard to block a flurry of punches and if a woman is able to do that, and manages to hit your throat (or eye)…you are in alot of trouble. It doesn’t take much to inflict serious damage to the throat. Take your hand now and lightly tap your larynx with your knuckles and keep going harder until you start to feel uncomfortable or a bit of pain. Now imagine a full fledged punch.

No one is saying that grappling is for the weak or useless but in a real world situation (which Irish knows about more than you and I - which was his point precisely: he knows more) it is something that can be a problem for a women.

Does that mean that a woman would never be able to use it effectively? Of course not.
However when it comes down to picking one martial art out of the thousands out there, something that specializes in ground work (which is sometimes covered in glass, pieces of wood and is made of very hard concrete) is not always the best option.
As far as i’m concerned, when you are pinned by a man who is trying to rape you, it’s much easier to try to dig your nails into his eyes or throat or whatever you can reach and biting him (preferably neck or face) as hard as you can.

And please don’t confuse Vale Tudo with combat.
While Vale Tudo is very hardcore, it’s not anywhere close to a real fight.
Combat = to the death. Meaning if you get me in a rear choke hold, i’m not going to try to escape or tap out, i’m going to grab your head with my hands and try to dig my thumbs into your eyes or i’m going to faint.
The intent, violence levels and raw emotions (fear especially) are very different.
Practicing an arm bar or even competing at a tournament where you can stop the pain or trouble at any time is alot different from when you have the guy’s arm and you might have to break it to escape. Easier said than done (emotionally and physically).
This is also while he’s trying to hit you constantly. He’s not just grabbing your gi or whatever as you would in a dojo. This guy is constantly hitting and hurting you.

The point here is while grappling is great…it’s just not IDEAL for a woman. PERIOD.

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[quote]zecarlo wrote:
OK, I get it, you’re a tough guy and know everything about rape defense.
[/quote]

I have never, ever said that.

If you are inferring what I think you are, I guess you should go fuck yourself you cunt piece of shit.

See, this is the best part. I keep saying, “prove it,” and you keep repeating the same unverifiable claim. You’re getting frustrated because you know you’re wrong, and that’s why you’re bringing up Chiuck Norris (really?).

I like grapplers. They’re easy to fuck up. So keep thinking what you’d like.

Vale Tudo, even though in Portuguese it means, “Anything goes”, were not that kind of fight. Did BJJ win many of them? Absolutely. Is it a great art for that situation? Absolutely. But Vale Tudo is not “street violence.” It’s not “police blotter.” It’s a sport, like any other.

In Vale Tudo, you know you’re fighting someone at a predestined date- maybe a Saturday. You know they don’t have weapons, and even though you may get hurt, the odds of you dying are low.

I wouldn’t bother. If our match was on Saturday, you’d be dead by Wednesday. Why? Cause fuck the rules.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH. Ok. Sure. I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn, it’s real fuckin cheap. One time deal. Want in?

[quote]
So you’ve been in more “real” fights than me. I don’t know if that makes you tougher or the better fighter but I do know that it makes me smarter. I’m done with you, Chuck Lee. [/quote]

Man, you are missing the point, and it’s even more humorous that you’re gettin ANGRY about it!

The point is that you haven’t, so to speak, “seen the elephant.” It’s hard for me to take your opinion seriously when I know that you’ve never been in a real fight.

All your skillsets aside, it is a different animal when you’re half-drunk, the guy that just clocked your buddy is 6’2" and he looks like he’s been juicing since he was 16, and you can’t stop your damn hands from shaking even though you’d give your left nut to have them do just that. Combine that with a heart that is pounding so fast that you think it’s going to explode, tunnel vision so bad that you barely are aware of what’s going on around you, and the fact that you CAN’T REMEMBER what you did because the booze and adrenaline really fucks with you… it sucks.

You’ve watched Saving Private Ryan. I was on the beach. Are you smarter for avoiding the fights? Yea, sure. But it is what is- so don’t tell me that you know how someone should defend themselves when you haven’t had to do it yourself.

I’ve never been a woman getting raped, but I’ve collected facts from ones that have. And I certainly have witnessed or had friends who were assaulted with bricks, bats, knives, guns, cue balls in socks, tiki torches (one memorable night), forks, beer bottles, pint glasses, and everything in between. My last true fight, I realized that I could have lost my eye because I got hit with a full beer bottle right on the bone. Thank god it didn’t shatter.

Point being- stick to the ring. It suits you. My world… not so much.

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Your choice is going to be dictated by what teachers are in your area. Look at some schools in your area and see who is good with kids. Keeping them interested so they stick with it is going to be about as important as any style.

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I guess you live in a pre-UFC world to believe that strikers beat grapplers. You lose all credibility as a sane person, let alone a knowledgeable person about fighting, if you believe the Olympic boxer beats the Olympic wrestler.

Of course, being on the ground, by choice or by force, is not the best option when there are multiple attackers but in that situation neither is standing around and trying to strike with them. In the case of rape, the subject we are discussing, it is usually a grappling and ground situation so it doesn’t matter if striking is better anyway. The woman will need a good grappling base in order to get into a position to strike.

I also live in a dangerous part of NJ and I manage to stay out of fights. But where I live, people don’t fight; they shoot you, that’s reality. It’s not two drunks swinging at each other and later thinking they are Mike Tyson, ready to take on all comers.

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[quote]zecarlo wrote:
I guess you live in a pre-UFC world to believe that strikers beat grapplers. You lose all credibility as a sane person, let alone a knowledgeable person about fighting, if you believe the Olympic boxer beats the Olympic wrestler.
[/quote]

I DON’T CARE ABOUT UFC! AT ALL!

UFC and the Olympics don’t mean shit to me.

If you repeat something over and over and over, it doesn’t make it true. It makes you sound mildly retarded.

This is like, the biggest fucking face palm I’ve ever had. Have I not fucking stressed AVOIDANCE and AWARENESS for this very reason?

You are beyond fucking dense. either that or English isn’t your first language.

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a few points:

i understand OP’s daughters are under 10. that being said, i imagine the debate stems more towards college age girls and older.

i would suggest they try to get some OC training with the police department. show up for the day, deploy some OC, realize the range, limitations, effects, ect. simple training that doesn’t take much time to be effective with it.

then if they are serious about defending themselves, CCW classes and PLENTY of range time.

the army recognizes that the winner in a hand-to-hand situation is the person who holds down his opponent until his buddies show up with a gun. we don’t train bjj because “it’s the best thing ever” it just works well with the goals of the army, as well as the situations a solider would find himself in (close quarters, heavy gear loadout, ect)

i haven’t met a female that i felt had a good shot of standing toe to toe with a guy. not that i’m looking for one either. which is why i suggest OC and CCW.

now just like anything else, proper training is required of both of those things.

Miss P sounds like a female who has spent a decent amount of training, as well as has a realistic idea of self defense situations. do i think she could square off with a guy my size? probably not. but could she buy enough distance to then deploy OC or if more serious, a gun? most likely. and i’d be freaking stupid to try and fight her while incapacitated with OC spray.

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[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
a few points:

i understand OP’s daughters are under 10. that being said, i imagine the debate stems more towards college age girls and older.

i would suggest they try to get some OC training with the police department. show up for the day, deploy some OC, realize the range, limitations, effects, ect. simple training that doesn’t take much time to be effective with it.

then if they are serious about defending themselves, CCW classes and PLENTY of range time.

the army recognizes that the winner in a hand-to-hand situation is the person who holds down his opponent until his buddies show up with a gun. we don’t train bjj because “it’s the best thing ever” it just works well with the goals of the army, as well as the situations a solider would find himself in (close quarters, heavy gear loadout, ect)

i haven’t met a female that i felt had a good shot of standing toe to toe with a guy. not that i’m looking for one either. which is why i suggest OC and CCW.

now just like anything else, proper training is required of both of those things.

Miss P sounds like a female who has spent a decent amount of training, as well as has a realistic idea of self defense situations. do i think she could square off with a guy my size? probably not. but could she buy enough distance to then deploy OC or if more serious, a gun? most likely. and i’d be freaking stupid to try and fight her while incapacitated with OC spray.[/quote]

Although I don’t disagree, you do have to deal with the laws of the land on that one.

You can’t get a CCW in NJ. Pepper spray also varies depending where you are.

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[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:

Miss P sounds like a female who has spent a decent amount of training, as well as has a realistic idea of self defense situations. do i think she could square off with a guy my size? probably not. but could she buy enough distance to then deploy OC or if more serious, a gun? most likely. and i’d be freaking stupid to try and fight her while incapacitated with OC spray.[/quote]

Hell, no, I would not want to stand there & trade blows with you HolyMac. Or try to defend myself on the ground either. But I think you’re right, I could probably buy myself some time - and then I’d better make it count, or I’m screwed. And forgive my ignorance, please, but what are OC and CCW? Something to do with mace and concealed weapons, I’m guessing?

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[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
HolyMacaroni wrote:

Miss P sounds like a female who has spent a decent amount of training, as well as has a realistic idea of self defense situations. do i think she could square off with a guy my size? probably not. but could she buy enough distance to then deploy OC or if more serious, a gun? most likely. and i’d be freaking stupid to try and fight her while incapacitated with OC spray.

Hell, no, I would not want to stand there & trade blows with you HolyMac. Or try to defend myself on the ground either. But I think you’re right, I could probably buy myself some time - and then I’d better make it count, or I’m screwed. And forgive my ignorance, please, but what are OC and CCW? Something to do with mace and concealed weapons, I’m guessing?[/quote]

Yup.
OC is pepper spray (CS is teargas). OC means Oleoresin Capsicum and it is the “active” ingredient. Pepper spray >>> teargas.
CCW is concealed carry weapon (i think).

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
If you repeat something over and over and over, it doesn’t make it true. It makes you sound mildly retarded.

You are beyond fucking dense. either that or English isn’t your first language.[/quote]\

Yeah, and what are you? A genius who gets into fights with drunken bums in bars and brags about it and even goes so far as to claim he would kick a defenseless man in the head. You really are from NJ.

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[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Yup.
OC is pepper spray (CS is teargas). OC means Oleoresin Capsicum and it is the “active” ingredient. Pepper spray >>> teargas.
CCW is concealed carry weapon (i think).
[/quote]

you are correct.

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I just started this one:

http://www.wushukwan.com/benefits.html

My coach believes in full contact since this is what I am going to meet when attacked and he doesn’t want women specially to be caught by the element of surprise.

He says things to me like:

‘I want controlled destruction from you’.

‘When you hit someone you want to cause as much damage as possible.’

It’s like music to my ears…

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[quote]zecarlo wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
If you repeat something over and over and over, it doesn’t make it true. It makes you sound mildly retarded.

You are beyond fucking dense. either that or English isn’t your first language.\

Yeah, and what are you? A genius who gets into fights with drunken bums in bars and brags about it and even goes so far as to claim he would kick a defenseless man in the head. You really are from NJ.
[/quote]

OK nancy. Thanks for your input.

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
zecarlo wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
If you repeat something over and over and over, it doesn’t make it true. It makes you sound mildly retarded.

You are beyond fucking dense. either that or English isn’t your first language.\

Yeah, and what are you? A genius who gets into fights with drunken bums in bars and brags about it and even goes so far as to claim he would kick a defenseless man in the head. You really are from NJ.

OK nancy. Thanks for your input.
[/quote]

Wow, nancy. Are you sure it’s not the playground where you are getting into fights?

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[quote]zecarlo wrote:

Wow, nancy. Are you sure it’s not the playground where you are getting into fights? [/quote]

The argument is over. You’re whining like a fucking broad. Stop.

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
zecarlo wrote:

Wow, nancy. Are you sure it’s not the playground where you are getting into fights?

The argument is over. You’re whining like a fucking broad. Stop.[/quote]

Yet you keep coming back for more.

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Stop this please guys, it’s not becoming.
For what it’s worth zecarlo I think you are absolutely incorrect, but I respect your right to an opinion.

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A couple things to keep in mind about grappling/groundfighting which hopefully will somewhat help people to come to some sort of consensus on the subject.

You have to make a distinction between sport grappling, MMA grappling/groundfighting, and reality grappling/groundfighting. They are not the same thing, and although everything found in sport grappling can be used in either of the other two there is definitely different levels of emphasis placed on different aspects depending on the situation/context.

Sport grappling (which is what most BJJ schools seem to focus on in my experience/from looking around the web) is all about position, transition and submission. Whoever is better at those 3 aspects (with emphasis on the first 2 in my experience) will win a sport grappling match (assuming they are also sufficiently conditioned).

MMA grappling/groundfighting involves position, transition and submission, but as striking is also an option only the first 2 are really “necessary” to prevail. Submission is still of course emphasized and wins fights. Just look at Lesnar’s recent decimation of Mir and you’ll see a good example of someone with superior positioning and transitioning but pretty much no submission skills tooling on their opponent. Strikes also somewhat alter the need to either gain or eliminate space to avoid being punched/be able to punch while in a grappling situation (be it standing or on the ground).

Reality grappling/groundfighting involves position, transition and submission (well, actually joint locks/breaks would be a better term in this context), but also involves striking, weapons, bites, eye attacks, nerve attacks, body handles, and weapons. Position and transition are still very important in reality situations but locks are much less heavily emphasized as generally the objective is to do as much damage as necessary as quickly as possible to be able to nullify the threat and either escape the situation, or control the situation if it were a law enforcement scenario. Generally, the other arsenals will do a much quicker job of this and are easier to access than locks (this is of course assuming that one is legally and morally justified in using them, which one would be in a rape defense situation).

Of course if the lock presents itself or is the best tool to use in the situation that one finds themselves in, then of course there’s nothing wrong with using it. Just be aware of the terrain, surroundings and potential weapons which might be accessible to the opponent (i.e. if there’s broken glass on the ground it probably doesn’t make sense to fall back into an arm bar). Also probably a better idea to attack the smaller joints (fingers, wrists, ankles) as that is where the opponent is weakest and not the biggest joints (knees, elbows, spine) as that is where they are strongest in most cases.

Remember that the lock doesn’t have to destroy the attacker to be effective, it could simply be a control to allow you to manipulate them and strike a vital target, a weakener to allow you to disengage and run, or a structural attack to prevent them from being unable to pursue you or use that weapon again (for instance, break someone’s thumb and they aren’t going to be gripping anything with that hand, or break someone’s ankle and they aren’t going to be running after you).

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For all out there that agreed with Bjj for your girls, I would now have to warn against it to an extent. my nephew and daughter were playing in our front yard and my nephew (3) jumped on my daughters (25mnths) back. well She is very found of watching daddy practice and watches me in my bjj classes with mommy. Wich is great motivation not to get my ass kicked but i digress to the latter story!

Upon him latching on she amazingly tucked forward and rolled him into a picture perfect armbar! upon shitt’n myself my GF screams at me, punches my shoulder and rushes to my nephews aid. I would have snaped a quick cell pic but i was far to busy starring in awe, But after my nephew stopped crying i realized something that i already knew CHILDREN ARE INFLUENCEABLE!

But this put a whole new spin on it this was straight out the door fuckn awesome, but i now have to decide for myself if she should continue watching daddy role with the big boys cause shes already taken them down in play not defense…but in all reality it was the shit you shoulda seen it damn i love my baby girl she got the gift waaahooo!