Best Martial Art to Enroll Daughters In?

Training
61

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
4. The school she trains in should teach her to defend against the most common attacks against females, which include: chokes, all types, from every direction. Attacks from behind. Being grabbed by the hair. Being dragged away. Attacks by multiple attackers. Bear hugs, which often lead to being thrown into a car or taken to the ground. Someone said earlier, I believe, that all a guy has to do to take a female to the ground is give her a big hug. This is a gross oversimplification, but I’ll agree that a bear hug is an excellent precursor to a takedown. In all of these situations, and whichever ones I’ve failed to list, she must be taught and encouraged to fight like an animal with every breath she has, using every tool and dirty trick she has, immediately and with 100% of her power. Someone else said earlier, the longer the fight continues, the worse her chances for survival. I agree with this. We are generally smaller & weaker, so we don’t have time to screw around. Anyone who attacks us must regret it immediately, and for a long time.

[/quote]

The typical rape takes place in a home and is not by some random stranger.

62

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

Miss Parker wrote:
4. The school she trains in should teach her to defend against the most common attacks against females, which include: chokes, all types, from every direction. Attacks from behind. Being grabbed by the hair. Being dragged away. Attacks by multiple attackers. Bear hugs, which often lead to being thrown into a car or taken to the ground. Someone said earlier, I believe, that all a guy has to do to take a female to the ground is give her a big hug. This is a gross oversimplification, but I’ll agree that a bear hug is an excellent precursor to a takedown. In all of these situations, and whichever ones I’ve failed to list, she must be taught and encouraged to fight like an animal with every breath she has, using every tool and dirty trick she has, immediately and with 100% of her power. Someone else said earlier, the longer the fight continues, the worse her chances for survival. I agree with this. We are generally smaller & weaker, so we don’t have time to screw around. Anyone who attacks us must regret it immediately, and for a long time.

The typical rape takes place in a home and is not by some random stranger.

[/quote]

It’s absolutely true, many do. But I was talking about the nature of the attack, not the attacker. One of my students was attacked by her boyfriend during an argument. He slapped the shit out of her, threw her onto the sidewalk, took full mount & choked her. She managed to fight him off by just “fighting like an animal” & ran way.

She started banging on strangers’ apartment doors & a man let her in before her boyfriend could catch her, & they called the police. The nature of a defense doesn’t change with the identity of the attacker. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your statement & you just mean that attacks by people we know should be addressed in training?

63

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:

It’s absolutely true, many do. But I was talking about the nature of the attack, not the attacker. One of my students was attacked by her boyfriend during an argument. He slapped the shit out of her, threw her onto the sidewalk, took full mount & choked her. She managed to fight him off by just “fighting like an animal” & ran way. She started banging on strangers’ apartment doors & a man let her in before her boyfriend could catch her, & they called the police. The nature of a defense doesn’t change with the identity of the attacker. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your statement & you just mean that attacks by people we know should be addressed in training?[/quote]

He’s trying to say that since some rapes take place in a home that grappling is a foregone conclusion, and therefore is the best way to train for such a situation.

Which is not correct.

64

If you arent learning GJJ, you are learning watered down BJJ. All you are getting is made-for-tv garbage. There one school where I live that teaches jiujutsu but dont have any rolling or live application of the techniques. They do not encourage their students to compete, nor do they (the instructor) have verifiable experience in competition.

That is the most literal definition of a McDojo. You get rank based on how long you have attended class (ergo, how much money you’ve paid) instead of the knowledge you have absorbed. Stay away from places like these. They are not worth the money. But to get back to the point, a good recommendation would be Krav Maga for stand up skills and GJJ for grappling skills as long as there is live, resistive sparring.

65

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
zecarlo wrote:

Miss Parker wrote:
4. The school she trains in should teach her to defend against the most common attacks against females, which include: chokes, all types, from every direction. Attacks from behind. Being grabbed by the hair. Being dragged away. Attacks by multiple attackers. Bear hugs, which often lead to being thrown into a car or taken to the ground. Someone said earlier, I believe, that all a guy has to do to take a female to the ground is give her a big hug. This is a gross oversimplification, but I’ll agree that a bear hug is an excellent precursor to a takedown. In all of these situations, and whichever ones I’ve failed to list, she must be taught and encouraged to fight like an animal with every breath she has, using every tool and dirty trick she has, immediately and with 100% of her power. Someone else said earlier, the longer the fight continues, the worse her chances for survival. I agree with this. We are generally smaller & weaker, so we don’t have time to screw around. Anyone who attacks us must regret it immediately, and for a long time.

The typical rape takes place in a home and is not by some random stranger.

It’s absolutely true, many do. But I was talking about the nature of the attack, not the attacker. One of my students was attacked by her boyfriend during an argument. He slapped the shit out of her, threw her onto the sidewalk, took full mount & choked her. She managed to fight him off by just “fighting like an animal” & ran way. She started banging on strangers’ apartment doors & a man let her in before her boyfriend could catch her, & they called the police. The nature of a defense doesn’t change with the identity of the attacker. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your statement & you just mean that attacks by people we know should be addressed in training?[/quote]

What I’m saying is there seems to be an undercurrent of BJJ, or grappling in general, hate when the fact is that the woman may find herself in that situation before she even realizes it’s an attack. You can’t do some karate or TKD move while on your couch. Also, with the prevalence of alcohol and drugs involvement in these types of assaults it doesn’t matter what you know.

The thing is that, if you take out the acquaintance factor and just look at the assaults by strangers in areas outside of a home, you see that there is a reason for the attack. What I mean is that a victim is not chosen at random but because the attacker sees something that makes him believe she is a target. Therefore, if a woman is attacked it can be assumed that she is at a disadvantage, besides the one of being smaller and weaker, that makes her even more vulnerable. For example, she may have her hands full with shopping bags or is fumbling on her purse for her keys. Whatever it is, the attacker has the drop on her and it will make it that much harder to escape the attack.

IMO, the acquaintance type of assault might be unavoidable to some degree. It’s not like a woman can know that a friend is going to one day try and rape her. Obviously not getting drunk while on a date, which might even mean no drinking at all, is a good place to start. Still, you can’t live your life with a sense of distrust for everyone. If it does get to the point that it’s an attempted assault then you need to know how to grapple since you will be in a tight space with a man pretty much on top of you. In these situations a woman can often talk herself out of it. And while trying to talk herself out of it she can by some time to position herself better to defend herself.

The other situations don’t require the ability to fight as much as the ability to reason and accept your vulnerabilities. Don’t go out at night alone. If you work late have someone escort you to your car and have someone you can call to let know you arrived home safely. If you are at a bar and go to the restroom have a friend watch your drink. Stay aware. It’s a mental issue more than a physical one. The problem is that women have this crazy notion about equality that they try and translate to every aspect of life. Set aside the ego and pride and ask someone to escort you or accompany you somewhere. Don’t engage in dangerous behavior just because you think you can do anything a man can do. Rapists don’t share that sentiment so why make it easier for them.

When you add in how women are conditioned to be nice it doesn’t help any. If a stranger approaches you in an area that leaves you vulnerable, even though you should have avoided that situation from the start, yell at him to back the fuck up. Maybe he needs help or directions or whatever but he’s an adult so he’ll manage. Screw him. A man shouldn’t even approach a female in that way to begin with. Don’t consider his feelings because he obviously didn’t consider yours.

Being smart is the best defense.

66

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

He’s trying to say that since some rapes take place in a home that grappling is a foregone conclusion, and therefore is the best way to train for such a situation.

Which is not correct.
[/quote]

You base that on what? Rorion Gracie came out with rape self defense video a while ago. I know someone who helped him with it, he works for the state, dealing with criminals, mostly sex offenders. They enlisted the help of law enforcement, including the FBI, when coming up with a defensive strategy for women. It was based on facts about rape. How many of these experts actually researched the subject before claiming to know how to teach women to defend themselves? Keep in mind that most, if not all MAs, were created by men to fight men. Men, women and children learn the same techniques with little regard to the reality of their circumstances. I know this from over 15 years training in traditional MAs. BJJ, almost by definition, gets filtered through each individual practitioner so they can modify and adjust it to their own needs and abilities.

67

How many of these discussions have we had to this point? And always the same arguments.

Great post Miss P.

I’ll also add one more vote for it being somewhat age specific.

OP. regardless of what the system is called it should teach your daughter:

  1. avoidance and awareness- the best defense is to not put yourself in a bad situation in the first place or to recognize a bad situation before it escalates

  2. ambush and escape- if she finds yourself in a bad situation she should not play fair but instead attack viciously and get out of there as fast as possible

  3. “active combat”- the system needs to teach her what to do when shit hits the fan. It should teach her how to use her body as an impact tool (punches, kicks, knees, elbows, headbutts, etc…), how to control her position in relation to her opponent’s (wrestling, BJJ, Judo are all good for this), how to attack her opponent where they are weak and weaken/manipulate them (traditional Jiu-Jitsu, Small circle Jiu-Jitsu, and other systems which emphasize small digit manipulations are good at this as well as systems which teach “nerve attacks” and other “dirty fighting” tactics), and how to use and deal with weapons (both improvised ones, like a cup of hot coffee, and “combat specific” ones, like blades) and multiple attackers (a really bad situation to be in and probably not “winnable”, but still good to have some methods to attempt to survive).

  4. the mental/emotional aspects of combat- this aspect is one that most likely will not get addressed in “sport” systems (or at least will be very very different in nature to self defense systems) because in a sporting context both fighters know exactly when, where, and who they are going to fight. They know the rules, they’ve studied tape of their opponent and worked out a game plan, they know that there is a ref there making sure that should they find themselves in serious trouble or unable to defend themselves they won’t get too seriously injured, they know that they can submit or give up and the opponent won’t continue with their assault, they know there are no weapons involved and the chances of them dying or being permanently maimed are relatively low, they know that they are about the same size as their opponent, etc…

In a real fight you don’t know any of the above things ahead of time (at least not in the majority of cases) and it’s a much more traumatic experience as a result. Which again, changes the mental/emotional aspect of fighting drastically.

If the system can teach your daughters all of the above (or even a large portion of the above) it’s a good system to enroll them in if self defense is the main goal, regardless of the name of the system.

68

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
How many of these discussions have we had to this point? And always the same arguments.

Great post Miss P.

I’ll also add one more vote for it being somewhat age specific.

OP. regardless of what the system is called it should teach your daughter:

  1. avoidance and awareness- the best defense is to not put yourself in a bad situation in the first place or to recognize a bad situation before it escalates

  2. ambush and escape- if she finds yourself in a bad situation she should not play fair but instead attack viciously and get out of there as fast as possible

  3. “active combat”- the system needs to teach her what to do when shit hits the fan. It should teach her how to use her body as an impact tool (punches, kicks, knees, elbows, headbutts, etc…), how to control her position in relation to her opponent’s (wrestling, BJJ, Judo are all good for this), how to attack her opponent where they are weak and weaken/manipulate them (traditional Jiu-Jitsu, Small circle Jiu-Jitsu, and other systems which emphasize small digit manipulations are good at this as well as systems which teach “nerve attacks” and other “dirty fighting” tactics), and how to use and deal with weapons (both improvised ones, like a cup of hot coffee, and “combat specific” ones, like blades) and multiple attackers (a really bad situation to be in and probably not “winnable”, but still good to have some methods to attempt to survive).

  4. the mental/emotional aspects of combat- this aspect is one that most likely will not get addressed in “sport” systems (or at least will be very very different in nature to self defense systems) because in a sporting context both fighters know exactly when, where, and who they are going to fight. They know the rules, they’ve studied tape of their opponent and worked out a game plan, they know that there is a ref there making sure that should they find themselves in serious trouble or unable to defend themselves they won’t get too seriously injured, they know that they can submit or give up and the opponent won’t continue with their assault, they know there are no weapons involved and the chances of them dying or being permanently maimed are relatively low, they know that they are about the same size as their opponent, etc…

In a real fight you don’t know any of the above things ahead of time (at least not in the majority of cases) and it’s a much more traumatic experience as a result. Which again, changes the mental/emotional aspect of fighting drastically.

If the system can teach your daughters all of the above (or even a large portion of the above) it’s a good system to enroll them in if self defense is the main goal, regardless of the name of the system.

[/quote]

Absolutely agree.

This is different from sport, but people refuse to recognize it.

All the grappling or boxing skills in the world don’t matter for shit if a woman can’t handle the adrenaline dump of being in a situation where they could be killed and they realize it.

Self defense is it’s very own subject. It should be taught by people who know what it is to be in the shit, who have felt that pounding heart and shaking hands that you will not get in a ring fight.

I highly suggest that people read “Meditations on Violence” to realize the absolute, unequivocal difference between real situations and sports.

69

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
How many of these discussions have we had to this point? And always the same arguments.

Great post Miss P.

I’ll also add one more vote for it being somewhat age specific.

OP. regardless of what the system is called it should teach your daughter:

  1. avoidance and awareness- the best defense is to not put yourself in a bad situation in the first place or to recognize a bad situation before it escalates

  2. ambush and escape- if she finds yourself in a bad situation she should not play fair but instead attack viciously and get out of there as fast as possible

  3. “active combat”- the system needs to teach her what to do when shit hits the fan. It should teach her how to use her body as an impact tool (punches, kicks, knees, elbows, headbutts, etc…), how to control her position in relation to her opponent’s (wrestling, BJJ, Judo are all good for this), how to attack her opponent where they are weak and weaken/manipulate them (traditional Jiu-Jitsu, Small circle Jiu-Jitsu, and other systems which emphasize small digit manipulations are good at this as well as systems which teach “nerve attacks” and other “dirty fighting” tactics), and how to use and deal with weapons (both improvised ones, like a cup of hot coffee, and “combat specific” ones, like blades) and multiple attackers (a really bad situation to be in and probably not “winnable”, but still good to have some methods to attempt to survive).

  4. the mental/emotional aspects of combat- this aspect is one that most likely will not get addressed in “sport” systems (or at least will be very very different in nature to self defense systems) because in a sporting context both fighters know exactly when, where, and who they are going to fight. They know the rules, they’ve studied tape of their opponent and worked out a game plan, they know that there is a ref there making sure that should they find themselves in serious trouble or unable to defend themselves they won’t get too seriously injured, they know that they can submit or give up and the opponent won’t continue with their assault, they know there are no weapons involved and the chances of them dying or being permanently maimed are relatively low, they know that they are about the same size as their opponent, etc…

In a real fight you don’t know any of the above things ahead of time (at least not in the majority of cases) and it’s a much more traumatic experience as a result. Which again, changes the mental/emotional aspect of fighting drastically.

If the system can teach your daughters all of the above (or even a large portion of the above) it’s a good system to enroll them in if self defense is the main goal, regardless of the name of the system.

Absolutely agree.

This is different from sport, but people refuse to recognize it.

All the grappling or boxing skills in the world don’t matter for shit if a woman can’t handle the adrenaline dump of being in a situation where they could be killed and they realize it.

Self defense is it’s very own subject. It should be taught by people who know what it is to be in the shit, who have felt that pounding heart and shaking hands that you will not get in a ring fight.

I highly suggest that people read “Meditations on Violence” to realize the absolute, unequivocal difference between real situations and sports. [/quote]

True, that doesn’t mean that sport systems (like the ones that Wayland mentioned in his original post) won’t be beneficial though.

Boxing, MT, and other “sport” striking systems will do a great job of teaching someone how to use their body as an impact tool. Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Catch will all do a good job teaching someone balance, positioning, and control of where the fight goes (whether it be avoiding going to the ground, or getting back up if you find yourself there), as well as some offensive tactics (joint locks, chokes, throws, etc…).

For specifically self defense purposes they aren’t usually “complete” (though this definitely depends on the instructor) but can still offer much to someone who’s focus is self defense.

70

Miss P,

I am troubled by your first assertion that “if she can’t take a punch (or any other strike), as well as deliver one, she can’t defend herself against a real attack”.

If that is true- which it may be- then I cannot see many women being able to endure the process of learning to take punches from men (which presumably is the relevant standard) or that they would have the physical capacity to do so. A handful of women may have the physical stature to do so but I see them as very much the exception.

I cannot see that my own daughter would ever be able to absorb a hard punch from an adult male. I would however hope that a stragically placed strike would enable her to escape an attack or give her a chance of doing so.

71

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Self defense is it’s very own subject. It should be taught by people who know what it is to be in the shit, who have felt that pounding heart and shaking hands that you will not get in a ring fight.

I highly suggest that people read “Meditations on Violence” to realize the absolute, unequivocal difference between real situations and sports. [/quote]

But how many of those so-called experts are women? A Navy SEAL may know what it’s like to be “in the shit” but what can he teach a woman when it comes to self-defense? A bouncer may have seen and been in 100s of fights but how much of what he knows applies to what a woman will face and how much of that can she apply? Just how many of these self-defense arts are designed for women?

Karate, Kung Fu, etc. were created by men to fight men and in regions where people are of similar size. MT, boxing, etc., are made for a fight between individuals of the same size (weight classes). Would Sugar Ray Leonard ever think he could beat a HW if he just trained harder and got better? All of those “military” systems are made for soldiers (usually men) who are in combat and not your average woman.

When I took karate there was no distinction between what a woman, or child, was taught and what a man was taught. You don’t teach a woman to fight a man like a man because they can’t.

72

[quote]peterm533 wrote:
Miss P,

I am troubled by your first assertion that “if she can’t take a punch (or any other strike), as well as deliver one, she can’t defend herself against a real attack”.

If that is true- which it may be- then I cannot see many women being able to endure the process of learning to take punches from men (which presumably is the relevant standard) or that they would have the physical capacity to do so. A handful of women may have the physical stature to do so but I see them as very much the exception.

I cannot see that my own daughter would ever be able to absorb a hard punch from an adult male. I would however hope that a stragically placed strike would enable her to escape an attack or give her a chance of doing so. [/quote]

Unfortunately, Peter, Miss Parker is right.
First of all, you seem (from what i gather through the internet) like a good guy who is looking out for the interests of his daughters and their well being. Obviously, that’s great.
I would think that one can logically conclude that your daughters are also good people.
The thing that an attacker (would be rapist or whatever) will do is use the element of surprise. He/She will get the first strike. This is almost guaranteed. The only way for your daughter to deliver a strategic strike that will end it is if she hits the guy first. The good people part leads me to believe she would have a hard time doing this.

This is especially true if you go with the statistics that most women are attacked by people they know and it tends to occur in their homes. This means that the victims already have their guard down due to trust.
It could also happen at a house party.
As the saying goes : A great offense is a good defense.
Keep in mind that your daughters are women. Most of their attackers will be men. They have to be able to go toe to toe with one. Being the best striker doesn’t mean squat if you can’t take a hit.

Also, contrary to popular belief, 1 hit KOs are rare and hitting someone without being hit is also quite rare.
Women are lighter, smaller bones, shorter reach (except for legs, women tend to have longer legs than men that are of equal height) and generally weaker.
The chances of a woman slipping through a man’s defense and landing a hit that will put him out of commission (unless it’s a perfect groin knee or kick) are slim.
Even if she does get close enough and manages to hurt him, he will probably instinctively react and push or hit her away.
She has to be prepared for that because it will not be a kind shove.

73

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Self defense is it’s very own subject. It should be taught by people who know what it is to be in the shit, who have felt that pounding heart and shaking hands that you will not get in a ring fight.

I highly suggest that people read “Meditations on Violence” to realize the absolute, unequivocal difference between real situations and sports.

But how many of those so-called experts are women? A Navy SEAL may know what it’s like to be “in the shit” but what can he teach a woman when it comes to self-defense? A bouncer may have seen and been in 100s of fights but how much of what he knows applies to what a woman will face and how much of that can she apply? Just how many of these self-defense arts are designed for women?
[/quote]

That’s a legitimate point, and in many cases you are right that what say a bouncer encounters will probably be very different from a potential date rape situation.

There are some self defense systems who were designed from a “what could a small, physically inferior person do to defend themselves against a larger physically superior opponent” standpoints though. For a woman, those are probably the ones that would be the best fit (still not to say that the others couldn’t be beneficial though).

Depends on the type of Karate/Kung Fu. Wing Chun was actually created by a woman to enable her to defeat larger, stronger men. Hence the heavy emphasis on physics, leverages, sensitivity, and in fighting (lack of reach).

I agree that there is a difference between soldiers and your average woman, but many of the “military” systems are designed with effectiveness and limited training time in mind (Krav Maga, WW11 combatives, S.P.E.A.R, etc…). Yet some others (like Pankration and Jiu-Jitsu) were practiced from a very young age and were born out of warrior cultures who devoted pretty much their entire existence to combative proficiency. Either way though, they actually tested their stuff for real (and I mean to the death in many cases) and only kept what really worked in pretty much no rules true combative situations.

Not too many systems are more time tested than some of the “military” arts either. Especially when you’re talking about true combat.

That was a poor karate instructor then; one who didn’t understand context or how to adapt the system to the individual’s needs. It doesn’t mean that all karate is therefore devoid of such things.

I’ve seen BJJ teachers focus on things like flying arm bars, pulling guard and basically trying to teach woman to grapple the same way they teach the male students; all the while claiming that their stuff will work for self defense purposes. Heck, I’ve seen some big name guys literally say things like “you shouldn’t strike, because that doesn’t show any true skill. So why not use Jiu-jitsu to prove how skilled you are” when talking about true combat. That doesn’t mean that all BJJ teachers are that naive or uniformed about the realities of self defense though.

Bad teachers will make any art, no matter how well developed it might have been originally, less effective. Good teachers will make any art more effective.

74

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
peterm533 wrote:
Miss P,

I am troubled by your first assertion that “if she can’t take a punch (or any other strike), as well as deliver one, she can’t defend herself against a real attack”.

If that is true- which it may be- then I cannot see many women being able to endure the process of learning to take punches from men (which presumably is the relevant standard) or that they would have the physical capacity to do so. A handful of women may have the physical stature to do so but I see them as very much the exception.

I cannot see that my own daughter would ever be able to absorb a hard punch from an adult male. I would however hope that a stragically placed strike would enable her to escape an attack or give her a chance of doing so.

Unfortunately, Peter, Miss Parker is right.
First of all, you seem (from what i gather through the internet) like a good guy who is looking out for the interests of his daughters and their well being. Obviously, that’s great.
I would think that one can logically conclude that your daughters are also good people.
The thing that an attacker (would be rapist or whatever) will do is use the element of surprise. He/She will get the first strike. This is almost guaranteed. The only way for your daughter to deliver a strategic strike that will end it is if she hits the guy first. The good people part leads me to believe she would have a hard time doing this.
[/quote]

But it’s an absolutely crucial aspect if a smaller person wants to survive an attack from a much larger person. In a real right, he/she who hits first, hits most, and hits hardest will win 99.9% of the time. A good self defense system will stress awareness (which makes the person less apt to be surprise attacked in the first place) as well as the need to strike first (ambush) if one feels threatened.

Realistically though she probably won’t be fighting a highly skilled striker who is intent on KO’ing her, but instead someone who is looking to demonstrate dominance over her (rape and domestic violence is about dominance in many cases more so than sex, hence the high occurrence of rape in male only prisons). So, while she probably couldn’t take a full blown KO punch from a bigger attacker, she probably could take a slap across the face and continue fighting.

No, a woman never, ever wants to go toe to toe with a bigger, stronger attacker. She wants to do everything in her power to avoid that. This isn’t the movies (“Enough” with J LO gave a lot of people a false impression that this was a good idea), it’s real life.

She wants to use every little dirty trick in the book to tip the scales in her favor (using psychology/words to get him to drop his guard and make it seem like she’s complying to get him to drop his guard and allow her to land some well place shots and escape, weapons like pepperspray/tasers if she has access to them, getting in extremely close and attacking his vital areas like eyes, throat, groin, biting, etc…) she does not, NOT want to square up with him and try to out box him or out wrestle him.

True. 1 hit KO’s are rare (especially in women’s self defense situations) and getting hit is a very real possibility. There is a difference between getting hit and getting truly hurt though and that’s when things like boxing are very beneficial in teaching you how to “take” a hit (rolling with the strike, absorbing it with your arms/shoulders). You still want to try to minimize the amount of hits that you take though.

75

[quote]peterm533 wrote:
Miss P,

I am troubled by your first assertion that “if she can’t take a punch (or any other strike), as well as deliver one, she can’t defend herself against a real attack”.

If that is true- which it may be- then I cannot see many women being able to endure the process of learning to take punches from men (which presumably is the relevant standard) or that they would have the physical capacity to do so. A handful of women may have the physical stature to do so but I see them as very much the exception.

I cannot see that my own daughter would ever be able to absorb a hard punch from an adult male. I would however hope that a stragically placed strike would enable her to escape an attack or give her a chance of doing so. [/quote]

Forgive me, I only have time to give a quick answer because I have to be out the door. I agree, its troubling, but I do believe its true. A real attacker is going to hit her hard. To be struck hard, especially in the face, is not only painful, its shocking. Its only happened to me a couple of times, & each time its stunned me for a second - long enough to let a real attacker shoot in & take me down with no resistance. And the guy was wearing grappling gloves, so lucky me, because a real attacker wouldn’t have been. But each time I get hit, that little second of shock gets a fraction of a second shorter. But let’s face it, most guys are definitely not hitting me as hard as they can! And your daughter certainly may not be able to withstand a blow from a grown man. Some grown men can’t do that. I’d wager she’s tougher than she realizes when her survival is at stake. But if the first time it happens is the real thing, she’s in much greater danger of succumbing immediately, and then its a rape kit or a funeral, or both. I don’t mean to seem unkind with that comment, its just that the stakes are very high for females.

I just now walked in the door from an hour of sparring the Gorgeous Bastard. I’m 5’7" & weigh 140 (yeah, I’ve gained some weight!!), he’s 6’4" & 240#'s. Guess what happened every time we went to the ground? He flipped me over like a barbie doll & beat the shit out of me. I stand by my assertion that groundfighting will not be useful as a primary method of self defense for females without years of training.

#1 - run away
#2 - stand up strikes, fight dirty & hard
#3 - groundfighting

76

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
They have to be able to go toe to toe with one. Being the best striker doesn’t mean squat if you can’t take a hit.

No, a woman never, ever wants to go toe to toe with a bigger, stronger attacker. She wants to do everything in her power to avoid that. This isn’t the movies (“Enough” with J LO gave a lot of people a false impression that this was a good idea), it’s real life.
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I didn’t say she has to but she should be able to. She has to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

77

Thanks for the advice everyone; very much appreciated. My daughters are both very young; I want to get my oldest started when she turns 4 (I’ve heard that’s when they can start). The goal is to enable them to defend themselves against a psycho/pedophile/whatever in case I’m not around, so you guys are right that I’m looking for something where they can inflict damage and then get away as quick as possible. Only interested in things that will actually help them against a bigger/stronger opponent in a real- world situation.

Sounds like judo would be a good thing to start off with to teach them the basics of how to throw, etc and then move on to something else to be able to inflict some pain if they have to. Just as long as they don’t use their new skills on Dad. ;~)

Again, thanks a million for all the advice; I don’t know much about this stuff and was having a hard time weeding through it all trying to find the best stuff to teach them.

78

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

But how many of those so-called experts are women? A Navy SEAL may know what it’s like to be “in the shit” but what can he teach a woman when it comes to self-defense? A bouncer may have seen and been in 100s of fights but how much of what he knows applies to what a woman will face and how much of that can she apply? Just how many of these self-defense arts are designed for women?
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They’re designed for people. A lot of the traditional arts focus on strikes to the throat, eyes, groin, and other targets that will work regardless of who you are fighting.

I don’t know where you’re getting all of this. If you teach a woman to strike for the throat, she’ll do it just as efficiently as a man will; they can throw an elbow that will fuck your day up just as quickly.

Many of the systems, especially versions of karate that focus on the softer side (and arts like aikido and tai chi) focus on using your enemies energy against them, and redirecting it. They don’t want you to box the guy or stand and fight- it’s strike, and run.

This isn’t that complicated.

79

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I’ve seen BJJ teachers focus on things like flying arm bars, pulling guard and basically trying to teach woman to grapple the same way they teach the male students; all the while claiming that their stuff will work for self defense purposes. Heck, I’ve seen some big name guys literally say things like “you shouldn’t strike, because that doesn’t show any true skill. So why not use Jiu-jitsu to prove how skilled you are” when talking about true combat. That doesn’t mean that all BJJ teachers are that naive or uniformed about the realities of self defense though.

Bad teachers will make any art, no matter how well developed it might have been originally, less effective. Good teachers will make any art more effective. [/quote]

Amen. A great tai chi teacher will teach you more about power generation and mechanics than you’d think. An old school karate teacher may have mastered the art of disrupting body organs with every punch- and yea, that’s real.

Thus the idea that there are any “bad” arts is amazing to me. All of them are good… and wing chun, especially, I’ve never heard a bad thing about it.

80

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

I didn’t say she has to but she should be able to. She has to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
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A woman will never be able to go toe to toe. It won’t happen. Planning for that is planning for death.