[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i really want to add some width to my back to hopefully take away from blocky shape and improve my V-taper
lol please nothing too crazy just effective shit that works. it doesnt seem the pulldowns and H.S. row machines do shit. i think ill start adding some 1-arm rows in. idk, thoughts appreciated. (people over 190 please.)[/quote]
IMO these are all great lat exercises:
Barbell Rows
Pullups
Power Cleans
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Sento are you sitting facing away or towards the machine? [/quote]
I’ve tried it both ways.
Facing away, you can get a better stretch in the lats, but can’t get as much ROM on the contraction (as the cable gets in the way). Facing towards, it’s harder to get as good of a stretch, but you can get a better contraction in the lats.
I generally do it facing towards the machine (as I’m already stretching my lats via the extreme stretch) though.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Chaosnyli wrote:
No one mentioned Straight-Arm Pull downs? Different from regular pull downs, these things rape my lats.
Straight arm pull downs definitely isolate the lats. The problem with them is that they don’t allow much in the way of potential for weight progression.
Micheal Patrella mentioned nautilus pull-overs, which are a much better isolation exercise for the lats IMO. The problem is that they aren’t all that easy to come by.
I came up with a way to mimic them, which I call “strap pull-overs” by using a pair of “ab originals”. Just hook the straps onto a lat-pulldown machine, feed your arms throug the straps like you’re going to do hanging leg raises, sit down, and pull your elbows down to your sides (and even slightly back).
Viola, a lat exercise that completely removes the arm flexors (for anyone who feels chins primarily in their arms or is looking to isolate the lats), isolates the lats, and has a much better potential for weight increase than straight arm pull-downs.
As far as results, I can’t conclusively say that they’ll build huge lats, as I only came up with the idea a couple months ago. But I will say that I definitely feel them in my lats, and they are a much better alternative than straight arm pull-downs if one wants to isolate the lats while still being able to move some weight.[/quote]
Same can be done with two towels draped over the pullup bar, as long as your pulling your elbows to your sides. This way you will aso train your grip.
Olympic rings work extreemly well as well! That’s what I use for pullup work.
Man’s right, this way you really feel ALL the work being done by the lat and almost none by your arms.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Just keep in mind that deadlifting 500 ONCE doesn’t make your back huge at all… a set of 6-12 is more like it, and then it doesn’t have to be 500 at all.
450*10 makes your back plenty huge.
Also, the op asked for width, not thickness, and he already deadlifts.
So I’m saying it again: Rack Chins.[/quote]
What is the benefit of using these rack chins instead of pullups in your opinion? Using heavier loads?
I understand using these without weight when you can do pullups for that number of reps, but not sure about the point on going heavy on these…
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Chaosnyli wrote:
No one mentioned Straight-Arm Pull downs? Different from regular pull downs, these things rape my lats.
Straight arm pull downs definitely isolate the lats. The problem with them is that they don’t allow much in the way of potential for weight progression.
Micheal Patrella mentioned nautilus pull-overs, which are a much better isolation exercise for the lats IMO. The problem is that they aren’t all that easy to come by.
I came up with a way to mimic them, which I call “strap pull-overs” by using a pair of “ab originals”. Just hook the straps onto a lat-pulldown machine, feed your arms throug the straps like you’re going to do hanging leg raises, sit down, and pull your elbows down to your sides (and even slightly back).
Viola, a lat exercise that completely removes the arm flexors (for anyone who feels chins primarily in their arms or is looking to isolate the lats), isolates the lats, and has a much better potential for weight increase than straight arm pull-downs.
As far as results, I can’t conclusively say that they’ll build huge lats, as I only came up with the idea a couple months ago. But I will say that I definitely feel them in my lats, and they are a much better alternative than straight arm pull-downs if one wants to isolate the lats while still being able to move some weight.[/quote]
interesting…
[quote]kensai01 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Chaosnyli wrote:
No one mentioned Straight-Arm Pull downs? Different from regular pull downs, these things rape my lats.
Straight arm pull downs definitely isolate the lats. The problem with them is that they don’t allow much in the way of potential for weight progression.
Micheal Patrella mentioned nautilus pull-overs, which are a much better isolation exercise for the lats IMO. The problem is that they aren’t all that easy to come by.
I came up with a way to mimic them, which I call “strap pull-overs” by using a pair of “ab originals”. Just hook the straps onto a lat-pulldown machine, feed your arms throug the straps like you’re going to do hanging leg raises, sit down, and pull your elbows down to your sides (and even slightly back).
Viola, a lat exercise that completely removes the arm flexors (for anyone who feels chins primarily in their arms or is looking to isolate the lats), isolates the lats, and has a much better potential for weight increase than straight arm pull-downs.
As far as results, I can’t conclusively say that they’ll build huge lats, as I only came up with the idea a couple months ago. But I will say that I definitely feel them in my lats, and they are a much better alternative than straight arm pull-downs if one wants to isolate the lats while still being able to move some weight.
Same can be done with two towels draped over the pullup bar, as long as your pulling your elbows to your sides. This way you will aso train your grip.
Olympic rings work extreemly well as well! That’s what I use for pullup work.
Man’s right, this way you really feel ALL the work being done by the lat and almost none by your arms. [/quote]
Are you talking about a levering action (like pulling your body from a straight hang into an inverted hang)?
Because if not, then you would still be recruiting your arm flexors. Not that those won’t work the lats, any pull-up/chin variation will if you have the motor/muscle recruitment pattern down. I like towels and rings for pull-ups as well. Muscle ups kick ass as a total upper body exercise, but they get pretty tough to do as you get heavier.
The strap pull-overs are meant to eliminate any arm assistance, like nautilus pull-overs, by placing the resistance against the triceps (upper arm). Except for levering, I can’t think of any way that could be accomplished using towels or rings.
BTW, nice pic of a straddle front lever in your profile. Is that you? Can you do pull-ups from there? I used to do a lot of gymnastics exercises and got to straddle lever pull-ups (about 5-6) and being able to hold a legs together front lever. Haven’t tried them in a while though.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Chaosnyli wrote:
No one mentioned Straight-Arm Pull downs? Different from regular pull downs, these things rape my lats.
Straight arm pull downs definitely isolate the lats. The problem with them is that they don’t allow much in the way of potential for weight progression.
Micheal Patrella mentioned nautilus pull-overs, which are a much better isolation exercise for the lats IMO. The problem is that they aren’t all that easy to come by.
I came up with a way to mimic them, which I call “strap pull-overs” by using a pair of “ab originals”. Just hook the straps onto a lat-pulldown machine, feed your arms throug the straps like you’re going to do hanging leg raises, sit down, and pull your elbows down to your sides (and even slightly back).
Viola, a lat exercise that completely removes the arm flexors (for anyone who feels chins primarily in their arms or is looking to isolate the lats), isolates the lats, and has a much better potential for weight increase than straight arm pull-downs.
As far as results, I can’t conclusively say that they’ll build huge lats, as I only came up with the idea a couple months ago. But I will say that I definitely feel them in my lats, and they are a much better alternative than straight arm pull-downs if one wants to isolate the lats while still being able to move some weight.[/quote]
This is brilliant.
Another variation would be as pullovers from the low cable.
[quote]Sagat wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Just keep in mind that deadlifting 500 ONCE doesn’t make your back huge at all… a set of 6-12 is more like it, and then it doesn’t have to be 500 at all.
450*10 makes your back plenty huge.
Also, the op asked for width, not thickness, and he already deadlifts.
So I’m saying it again: Rack Chins.
What is the benefit of using these rack chins instead of pullups in your opinion? Using heavier loads?
I understand using these without weight when you can do pullups for that number of reps, but not sure about the point on going heavy on these…
[/quote]
Well one benefit is the ability to continue progressing, even as you are regularly gaining weight.
The problem with BW exercises like chins/weighted chins, is that, let’s say that you are gaining at a rate of 1 lb per week, and let’s say that you start out at 200 lbs. You start doing weighted chins with 50 lbs added.
So, you are pulling 250 lbs for reps. But, as you try to increase the amount of weight that you add to the exercise, you are also increasing weight in the form of bw.
So, after six months (and let’s say just for the sake of argument that you are able to add 5 lbs every other week), you are now trying to add 60 lbs to your chins (making it +110 lbs), but you’ve also gained 24 lbs of bw.
So you actually now have to lift 334 lbs for reps. That’s a huge increase in weight, and likely you are not going to be able to progress that quickly.
With an exercise like a rack chin, you are using less of your bw, so the problem isn’t as pronounced.
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Stu,
What would be the difference then between holding the negative, stretching portion of a close-grip chin movement, versus doing the same with the V-Grip handle?
Feels the same to me, personally.
And when you say you hold a stretch, is it enough to hang with your toes barely touching the ground, so you can vary the tension?
I don’t think I could hang too long with my full body weight.[/quote]
Well, I wouldn’t suggest holding the complete stretch, as it relieves the stress on the lats. What I do suggest is to minimize the bicep involvement.
How many idiots do you see throwing themselves up over the chinning bar on each rep. At that point, the back is probably slacking off quite a bit, and the biceps get a nice pump.
As to a close grip vs. a v-grip handle,… I guess its a matter of preference. You could do close grip supinated chins and get a great stretch as well (I’d love to, but my wrists get a little achey!).
Personally though, if I hold my lat with one hand, and rotate my hand position from what it would be on a v-grip, to what it would be for a close grip, I feel an extra little tug with the v-grip postition. Of course this may just be some freak thing in my own lats 
S
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Chaosnyli wrote:
No one mentioned Straight-Arm Pull downs? Different from regular pull downs, these things rape my lats.
Straight arm pull downs definitely isolate the lats. The problem with them is that they don’t allow much in the way of potential for weight progression.
Micheal Patrella mentioned nautilus pull-overs, which are a much better isolation exercise for the lats IMO. The problem is that they aren’t all that easy to come by.
I came up with a way to mimic them, which I call “strap pull-overs” by using a pair of “ab originals”. Just hook the straps onto a lat-pulldown machine, feed your arms throug the straps like you’re going to do hanging leg raises, sit down, and pull your elbows down to your sides (and even slightly back).
Viola, a lat exercise that completely removes the arm flexors (for anyone who feels chins primarily in their arms or is looking to isolate the lats), isolates the lats, and has a much better potential for weight increase than straight arm pull-downs.
As far as results, I can’t conclusively say that they’ll build huge lats, as I only came up with the idea a couple months ago. But I will say that I definitely feel them in my lats, and they are a much better alternative than straight arm pull-downs if one wants to isolate the lats while still being able to move some weight.
This is brilliant.
Another variation would be as pullovers from the low cable.[/quote]
Yup, that would work too. The problem I found was getting into position. Once you start using some substantial weight, just trying to get into the position to do the exercise is an exercise in itself. LOL.
That’s one of the reasons I opted for the pull-down version. Not that the others wouldn’t work, but you might want to experiment with fairly lighter weights to see if you would feel comfortable doing it with heavy weights.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
This is brilliant.
Another variation would be as pullovers from the low cable.
Yup, that would work too. The problem I found was getting into position. Once you start using some substantial weight, just trying to get into the position to do the exercise is an exercise in itself. LOL.
That’s one of the reasons I opted for the pull-down version. Not that the others wouldn’t work, but you might want to experiment with fairly lighter weights to see if you would feel comfortable doing it with heavy weights.[/quote]
I was just thinking a fairly steep decline and or some additional chain on the ab straps may help keep the cable off your forehead
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Well one benefit is the ability to continue progressing, even as you are regularly gaining weight.
The problem with BW exercises like chins/weighted chins, is that, let’s say that you are gaining at a rate of 1 lb per week, and let’s say that you start out at 200 lbs. You start doing weighted chins with 50 lbs added. So, you are pulling 250 lbs for reps.
But, as you try to increase the amount of weight that you add to the exercise, you are also increasing weight in the form of bw.
So, after six months (and let’s say just for the sake of argument that you are able to add 5 lbs every other week), you are now trying to add 60 lbs to your chins (making it +110 lbs), but you’ve also gained 24 lbs of bw.
So you actually now have to lift 334 lbs for reps. That’s a huge increase in weight, and likely you are not going to be able to progress that quickly.
With an exercise like a rack chin, you are using less of your bw, so the problem isn’t as pronounced.[/quote]
It makes sense. One thing that is interesting is that in the gym i train now is kind of a “bodybuilding gym” and i almost dont see people doing pullups(besides me), everybody favors pulldowns, comparing to my old gym that was more a “health club gym”.
Maybe it happens because of this reason: harder progression on pullups(at least for the big guys, and the smaller guys copy them… :)).
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
okay, I didn’t read anyone else’s comments, but figured I’d chime in anyway (I’m as ass, what can I say -lol).
While I’ve always loved rows, and deads, and focused more on them than anything else, a lot of people who talk about how great chins are for your v-taper seem to have naturally small waists. I always had a blocky looking build, probably from years of powerlifting training, squatting and DLing tons of weight.
What I feel really helped bring out my lats is doing chins with a V-Grip handle (the one usually attached to the cable stack). I eliminate the top portion to keep my biceps from activating too much, and focus on continuous tension on the lats.
AT the bottom of the movement, you will feel the stretch all the way down to your lower lat insertions (ow!). I have yet to show this to anyone and not have them express awe at how great a burn they get in the lower outter region.
S
[/quote]
so you just plop it inbetween the two handles that are stick out towards you…really bad at describing it but basically the close grip, palms facing one?
ill try this out cause my problem like yours was is that im just blocky. i feel like my shoulders and traps are good, my chest is alright…better width than thickness… but i just dont have the lats or the waist rather to have a good v-taper right now.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
This is brilliant.
Another variation would be as pullovers from the low cable.
Yup, that would work too. The problem I found was getting into position. Once you start using some substantial weight, just trying to get into the position to do the exercise is an exercise in itself. LOL.
That’s one of the reasons I opted for the pull-down version. Not that the others wouldn’t work, but you might want to experiment with fairly lighter weights to see if you would feel comfortable doing it with heavy weights.
I was just thinking a fairly steep decline and or some additional chain on the ab straps may help keep the cable off your forehead[/quote]
It would, and I agree with you.
If you had a training partner to deload the straps for you until you got into position that would work very well. But, when training alone, I simply don’t feel comfortable trying to hold myself in position holding hundreds of pounds of tension, while trying to twist (to clear the cable around my head) and set down and anchor myself on a slippery flat bench.
Believe me, I tried it, and I really wish that it was easier to get into position. Maybe you’ll have a better time of it than I did, I can only speak for myself.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
This is brilliant.
Another variation would be as pullovers from the low cable.
Yup, that would work too. The problem I found was getting into position. Once you start using some substantial weight, just trying to get into the position to do the exercise is an exercise in itself. LOL.
That’s one of the reasons I opted for the pull-down version. Not that the others wouldn’t work, but you might want to experiment with fairly lighter weights to see if you would feel comfortable doing it with heavy weights.
I was just thinking a fairly steep decline and or some additional chain on the ab straps may help keep the cable off your forehead
It would, and I agree with you.
If you had a training partner to deload the straps for you until you got into position that would work very well.
But, when training alone, I simply don’t feel comfortable trying to hold myself in position holding hundreds of pounds of tension, while trying to twist (to clear the cable around my head) and set down and anchor myself on a slippery flat bench.
Believe me, I tried it, and I really wish that it was easier to get into position. Maybe you’ll have a better time of it than I did, I can only speak for myself. [/quote]
How bout this. I’m just thinkin out loud here and I think I’m going to test this.
My machine is plate loaded. I could take the plate pin assembly and lift it up unloaded and put a piece of 2x4 maybe 18 inches between the 2 bumper pads that it rests on and load it with the board holding it up. As soon as I pulled the weight off the the board would drop out.
It may be a bit of a challenge ending the set, but maybe not.
i dont think performing a set should require the same effort as putting together a piece of furniture.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
This is brilliant.
Another variation would be as pullovers from the low cable.
Yup, that would work too. The problem I found was getting into position. Once you start using some substantial weight, just trying to get into the position to do the exercise is an exercise in itself. LOL.
That’s one of the reasons I opted for the pull-down version. Not that the others wouldn’t work, but you might want to experiment with fairly lighter weights to see if you would feel comfortable doing it with heavy weights.
I was just thinking a fairly steep decline and or some additional chain on the ab straps may help keep the cable off your forehead
It would, and I agree with you.
If you had a training partner to deload the straps for you until you got into position that would work very well. But, when training alone, I simply don’t feel comfortable trying to hold myself in position holding hundreds of pounds of tension, while trying to twist (to clear the cable around my head) and set down and anchor myself on a slippery flat bench.
Believe me, I tried it, and I really wish that it was easier to get into position. Maybe you’ll have a better time of it than I did, I can only speak for myself.
How bout this. I’m just thinkin out loud here and I think I’m going to test this.
My machine is plate loaded. I could take the plate pin assembly and lift it up unloaded and put a piece of 2x4 maybe 18 inches between the 2 bumper pads that it rests on and load it with the board holding it up. As soon as I pulled the weight off the the board would drop out.
It may be a bit of a challenge ending the set, but maybe not.[/quote]
Never know until you try it. Good luck.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
<<< Never know until you try it. Good luck. :)[/quote]
I sense a little bit a “don’t say you weren’t warned” tone there. LOL
Things that have improved my width (and it has improved drastically the past couple of months)
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
<<< Never know until you try it. Good luck.
I sense a little bit a “don’t say you weren’t warned” tone there. LOL[/quote]
LOL. No, not really. More of a “just be careful because I don’t want you getting hurt trying out an exercise that I suggested” tone.