I think one of the most frustrating things that I have to face whenever I train my back is that I lack a mind muscle connection to my lats and have a hard time activating them which makes it exceedingly difficult to develop back width.
For me, the typical “back width” exercises like wide grip pulldowns or pullups just end up targeting my middle back. And exercises that target “back thickness” do a better job at targeting the lats, like t-bar rows and one arm rows, yet still as I fatigue the middle back begins to take over.
Any suggestions on targeting the lats better or improving their connection?
Your question and posts thus far reek of someone who’s still with the “I stick to compound free-weight big-bang-for-the-buck movements with full range of motion to get full points from some unnamed weight-training authority. tee hee hee.” movement.
1.if your lats aren’t being worked as prime movers with traditional back-width movements, then don’t you think your “execution” of said movement sucks donkey dick? Especially given the number of posts made on this forum till date on focusing on the stretch position, load, arch ack with chest high, blah blah blah - your post comes off as ridiculous.
2.if you find that you get lat stimulation from a rowing movement for whatever reason, how about you DO a rowing movement for back width and progress using a combination of bodyweight gain, neural training, improved set-up etc etc etc and see if that gets you somewhere?
3.You WILL need some kind of vertical pulling movement to work back width. To let your back dominate over your fucking biceps, use a false grip/straps and maintain the stretched position for a second or two (depressed scapulae).Within the back complex, to let your lats dominate (as opposed to teres) chest high and back arched throughout movement.
Adjust hand position on the bar such that your hand (or elbow) moves roughly/somewhat along your extended forearm while doing the pulling and your biceps will be relatively limp whiel your back is forced to pull.
With an arched back/chest high, starting the motion with a scapular downward movement (youtube toney Freeman’s advice on back training) and puffed out and try to get the bar somewhere in the chest region your lats will be the prime movers, like it or not.
The peak contraction here is more of lower traps, rhomboids and other stuff so if youre training back width don’t sweat it too much. Finally if you’re not able to finish the movement with peak contraction, don’t stick with low reps.
4.If you want to recruit your back better in rowing movements, start recruiting your back in day to day life activities as well, like opening a supermarket door or whetever. Its all about getting a scapular retraction to intitiate the movement, thats all. Ain’t rocket science.
Put up vids of your execution and some of us will help you out.
[quote]forbes wrote:
Any suggestions on targeting the lats better or improving their connection?[/quote]
OKay, 1stly, wide grip back movements will always target your mid back, this has been discussed to death.
2nd- a nice little combo I always liked which helped me focus more on my lats (I think I have decent back thickness, but could certainly use more width as well) is to do straight arm pressdowns with a rope (great stretch, great contraction without involving the biceps), and then afterward, go to a pulldown station, and make sure you’re sitting upright (none of that leaning back nonsense), using a close grip attachment where your hands are in a neutral position (facing each other), and as you do each rep, focus on keeping your elbows in front of your torso (don’t try to contract your scaps like most people do,… not this time).
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Yes, you could start bodybuilding.
Seriously.[/quote]
I have. Seriously.
I WAS like that (when I started here) but I’m not like that anymore. Please do not assume things that are not true anymore.
My execution isn’t that bad. I still feel it i my back, just not the lats. Its mainly the middle back.
I have for the mean time. Its just that I also want to feel it when I do vertical pulling movements as well, not just rowing movements.
My biceps never take over. I never even feel them much. I always feel it in the back, just not the lats. Again, its mainly the middle back.
[quote]5. With an arched back/chest high, starting the motion with a scapular downward movement (youtube toney Freeman’s advice on back training) and puffed out and try to get the bar somewhere in the chest region your lats will be the prime movers, like it or not.
The peak contraction here is more of lower traps, rhomboids and other stuff so if youre training back width don’t sweat it too much. Finally if you’re not able to finish the movement with peak contraction, don’t stick with low reps.[/quote]
I do this and still feel it in the mid back.
I have started doing this.
The family is out for now. When they get back this evening, I will ask for one of them to film me.
[quote]forbes wrote:
Any suggestions on targeting the lats better or improving their connection?[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
OKay, 1stly, wide grip back movements will always target your mid back, this has been discussed to death.
2nd- a nice little combo I always liked which helped me focus more on my lats (I think I have decent back thickness, but could certainly use more width as well) is to do straight arm pressdowns with a rope (great stretch, great contraction without involving the biceps), and then afterward, go to a pulldown station, and make sure you’re sitting upright (none of that leaning back nonsense), using a close grip attachment where your hands are in a neutral position (facing each other), and as you do each rep, focus on keeping your elbows in front of your torso (don’t try to contract your scaps like most people do,… not this time).
Should feel that in your lats quite nicely
S[/quote]
Interesting. Never thought of that. I’ll give that a try thanks stu!
Some people feel it more in their mid back with a wide grip, while others feel it more in their midback with a closer grip. You will need to play a bit to figure this out, HOWEVER, if your vertical movement is initiated by a DEPRESSION from the full stretch (vertical movement of scapulae - see toney feeman’s video. please) your lats have to play a role in the pulling.
One final thing is – grip the bar at the STRAIGHT edge whether wide/close although at least shoulder width is probably better (like Ronnie C demonstrates), since for many people gripping the end thats bent downwards minimizes lat involvement, and shifts the focus to mid back. If you have access to a bar thats turned UPWARDS at the ends, use it.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
OKay, 1stly, wide grip back movements will always target your mid back, this has been discussed to death.
2nd- a nice little combo I always liked which helped me focus more on my lats (I think I have decent back thickness, but could certainly use more width as well) is to do straight arm pressdowns with a rope (great stretch, great contraction without involving the biceps), and then afterward, go to a pulldown station, and make sure you’re sitting upright (none of that leaning back nonsense), using a close grip attachment where your hands are in a neutral position (facing each other), and as you do each rep, focus on keeping your elbows in front of your torso (don’t try to contract your scaps like most people do,… not this time).
Should feel that in your lats quite nicely
S[/quote]
Interesting. Never thought of that. I’ll give that a try thanks stu![/quote]
I was going to mention pre-exhaust, but Stu beat me to it. I strongly suggest you do stiff-arm pulldowns or machine pullovers before your compound back exercises. You can also try static holds at the midpoint or end of a lift. If you don’t feel that in your lats, I don’t know what exercise or method you’ll be left with. And again, thinking of the lats working while you train.
I am actually kind of impressed tribunaldude managed to put that all into words. I don’t think I could have successfully gone into more depth than “you want to work lats… pull with your lats.”
I used to have pretty shitty back “mind-muscle” connection and I started really focusing on it more (for other exercises and muscles as well of course). Aside from reading and practicing all the things C_C’s ever written on the subject, and tribdude has posted up pretty much everything you’d need to know, I started posting up lat spreads. A lot. Whenever I was at my house and bored, or generally alone so people wouldn’t see me I’d just try to spread my lats as wide and as “hard” as I could, generally 20-30 times a day for a few weeks. If it’s hard to really feel it starting out, do some spreads when your back is pumped I find it to be much easier.
Vasodilators work well too, in my experience, to help “feel” the mind-muscle connection, there’s a certain “herbal supplement” in particular that I worked a lot with that i feel has been instrumental to helping me develop a strong mind-muscle connection even when I’m not on it while I workout.
Oh and there’s a particular exercise Stu wrote bout once, I think in his contest thread that I felt was pretty good. It’s the one where you stand in the middle of a cable station, put the grip handles on and set it high, like if you were to do chest cable flyes, except you are going to do like a vertical pulling exercise. Grab both handles, kneel a little bit, and pull with your lats while keeping your elbows straight. You’re essentially just retracting your scapula, idk I’m not very good at describing exercises, I’m sure Stu could offer a much better explanation or you could try and sift through his countdown thread for the post where he explained it in depth.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
… is to do straight arm pressdowns with a rope (great stretch, great contraction without involving the biceps) …
[/quote]
Stu-- is this it (but with rope)?
You know, I’ve never done these!
This doesn’t look like something you can go very heavy on without changing stance-- so at some point (like more bent torso), does this become ineffective, or is that never the point with this movement (ie. like facepulls, usually only done relatively lighter for higher reps)?
Adjust hand position on the bar such that your hand (or elbow) moves roughly/somewhat along your extended forearm while doing the pulling and your biceps will be relatively limp whiel your back is forced to pull.
[/quote]
I’m having trouble understanding this description. Does this mean the same thing as keeping your forearms [close to] perpendicular to the bar as much as possible? Thanks.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
ok. Some additional comments:
Some people feel it more in their mid back with a wide grip, while others feel it more in their midback with a closer grip. You will need to play a bit to figure this out, HOWEVER, if your vertical movement is initiated by a DEPRESSION from the full stretch (vertical movement of scapulae - see toney feeman’s video. please) your lats have to play a role in the pulling.
One final thing is – grip the bar at the STRAIGHT edge whether wide/close although at least shoulder width is probably better (like Ronnie C demonstrates), since for many people gripping the end thats bent downwards minimizes lat involvement, and shifts the focus to mid back. If you have access to a bar thats turned UPWARDS at the ends, use it.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[/quote]
[/quote]
Well I depress my scapula when I do pullups (or pulldowns) but I’ll try it with different grip width’s and see how that goes.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
OKay, 1stly, wide grip back movements will always target your mid back, this has been discussed to death.
2nd- a nice little combo I always liked which helped me focus more on my lats (I think I have decent back thickness, but could certainly use more width as well) is to do straight arm pressdowns with a rope (great stretch, great contraction without involving the biceps),
and then afterward, go to a pulldown station, and make sure you’re sitting upright (none of that leaning back nonsense), using a close grip attachment where your hands are in a neutral position (facing each other), and as you do each rep, focus on keeping your elbows in front of your torso (don’t try to contract your scaps like most people do,… not this time).
Should feel that in your lats quite nicely
S[/quote]
Interesting. Never thought of that. I’ll give that a try thanks stu![/quote]
I was going to mention pre-exhaust, but Stu beat me to it. I strongly suggest you do stiff-arm pulldowns or machine pullovers before your compound back exercises. You can also try static holds at the midpoint or end of a lift. If you don’t feel that in your lats, I don’t know what exercise or method you’ll be left with. And again, thinking of the lats working while you train. [/quote]
Pullovers never target my lats, however I’ve never tried straight arm pulldowns so I will give that a shot before I do any vertical pulling movements and see how that fees. If it works, I’ll do that until my mind muscle connection improves.
[quote]That One Guy wrote:
I used to have pretty shitty back “mind-muscle” connection and I started really focusing on it more (for other exercises and muscles as well of course). Aside from reading and practicing all the things C_C’s ever written on the subject, and tribdude has posted up pretty much everything you’d need to know, I started posting up lat spreads. A lot.
Whenever I was at my house and bored, or generally alone so people wouldn’t see me I’d just try to spread my lats as wide and as “hard” as I could, generally 20-30 times a day for a few weeks. If it’s hard to really feel it starting out, do some spreads when your back is pumped I find it to be much easier.
Vasodilators work well too, in my experience, to help “feel” the mind-muscle connection, there’s a certain “herbal supplement” in particular that I worked a lot with that i feel has been instrumental to helping me develop a strong mind-muscle connection even when I’m not on it while I workout.[/quote]
I’ve actually just started doing lat spreads everyday now just recently. The only thing is,I have a hard time doing a lat spread when my arms are overhead, just like the beginning of a vertical pulling movement.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
… is to do straight arm pressdowns with a rope (great stretch, great contraction without involving the biceps) …
[/quote]
Stu-- is this it (but with rope)?
You know, I’ve never done these!
This doesn’t look like something you can go very heavy on without changing stance-- so at some point (like more bent torso), does this become ineffective, or is that never the point with this movement (ie. like facepulls, usually only done relatively lighter for higher reps)?
[/quote]
If you bend forward at the waist, so that you’re not standing upright, and then allow your hands to come together at the top (because of the rope handle), I guarantee that you will feel your lats
(and I work up to some decent weight when I do these)
CT wrote a good article at some point about back exercises for people w/ overpowering arms. though this might not exactly be your issue w/ using your lats, it might help a bit anyway. other than that, Tribunaldude and stu are right on the money - i’ve always had trouble focusing my lats (arms take over and a lack of good mind-muscle connection), but pre-exhaust seems to work well, as well as just arching the hell out of my back on pulldowns and pullups with varying grip widths.
one other idea - if you have access to a pulldown station w/ 2 cables or else a functional trainer, try doing your pulldowns w/ independent handles (like the ones you would use for flyes) and rotate them through the motion. starting w/ your knuckles facing in and thumbs facing forward at the top, and rotate as you pull down so that you end up w/ basically an underhand grip at the bottom. (i tried to find a video of this, but to no avail, sorry) at any rate, my lats are always really sore after these, and i feel them working really well, so give it a try.
