One of the worst things that can happen in a fight, especially if weapons are involved, is broken fingers, very hard to manipulate a weapon: rifle, handgun, knife or flint tip spear with broken hands or fingers. You need to smash something during a fight and lack some type of impact weapon, I agree, use an elbow.
FYI - Robert - one of my good friends is a very prominent barenuckle boxer. He throws the hook turned over, palm down, and KOs guys brutally with it in bareknuckle bouts.
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
That said, with completely unwrapped hands, I think hooks are to be avoided as far as is possible. If you can’t, the simple answer is pick which of your thumb or pinky you would rather have out of action should a fight continue. For me, I would always opt for a broken pinky before a broken thumb. Clearly, I have ignored my own wise internet advice on a number of occasions, idiot that I am. I have found (through bare knuckle light sparring with mates) that using your middle finger to aim, rather than your ring finger, does a little to reduce the risk of over connecting with the pinky. Generally at that range though I would be inclined to dirty box, and use the elbow as the main point of contact.
The hook is the most technical punch in boxing. Most boxers go a life time without ever truly nailing down a fantastic hook, that goes for amateurs AND pros. There is so much timing involved, so much that is dependent on perfect body position, that I think it is a very poor choice of punch where handwrapping and gloves are not available. I am sure there are many reasons that I fail to appreciate why a hook might be favorable to an elbow in a ‘live’ situation, but personally I would only use a hook as a last resort.[/quote]
I slightly disagree with this. I understand the problems of broken fingers, of course, but at the same time, the hook is going to be an excellent option barenuckle precisely because it’s hitting from the side, most likely to the jaw, which is a good target. Aiming further back and hitting where the jaw meets the skull in order to pop it out (as opposed to the front of the jaw) is also a good move, as is hooking to the cluster of nerves that sits in the neck right below the ear and behind the jaw.
You’re going to be at heavy risk of breaking your hand using straight punches, because although eye sockets and noses are great targets, if you hit the jaw or forehead straight on, you’re guaranteed to break some shit.
Good bareknucklers will actually headbutt your fist with their forehead when it comes in in an attempt to break your hand with their forehead.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
That said, with completely unwrapped hands, I think hooks are to be avoided as far as is possible. If you can’t, the simple answer is pick which of your thumb or pinky you would rather have out of action should a fight continue. For me, I would always opt for a broken pinky before a broken thumb. Clearly, I have ignored my own wise internet advice on a number of occasions, idiot that I am. I have found (through bare knuckle light sparring with mates) that using your middle finger to aim, rather than your ring finger, does a little to reduce the risk of over connecting with the pinky. Generally at that range though I would be inclined to dirty box, and use the elbow as the main point of contact.
The hook is the most technical punch in boxing. Most boxers go a life time without ever truly nailing down a fantastic hook, that goes for amateurs AND pros. There is so much timing involved, so much that is dependent on perfect body position, that I think it is a very poor choice of punch where handwrapping and gloves are not available. I am sure there are many reasons that I fail to appreciate why a hook might be favorable to an elbow in a ‘live’ situation, but personally I would only use a hook as a last resort.[/quote]
I slightly disagree with this. I understand the problems of broken fingers, of course, but at the same time, the hook is going to be an excellent option barenuckle precisely because it’s hitting from the side, most likely to the jaw, which is a good target. Aiming further back and hitting where the jaw meets the skull in order to pop it out (as opposed to the front of the jaw) is also a good move, as is hooking to the cluster of nerves that sits in the neck right below the ear and behind the jaw.
You’re going to be at heavy risk of breaking your hand using straight punches, because although eye sockets and noses are great targets, if you hit the jaw or forehead straight on, you’re guaranteed to break some shit.
Good bareknucklers will actually headbutt your fist with their forehead when it comes in in an attempt to break your hand with their forehead.
[/quote]
Again, I agree in principle. In reality, I can count the number of ams and pros I know who can reliably put a hook exactly where they want it under extreme pressure on the fingers of my hands. Very roughly, I would say less than 1/10 BOXERS I know can consistently, accurately, place a hook under pressure.
I don’t doubt the effectiveness of hooks. As you say, they are a peach of a punch that can put more or less anyone, even someone MUCH bigger, on their arse when thrown right. For the vast majority of trained fighters though, I think they will likely do themselves as much damage as their opponent. Once things are at hooking range, I would always advise an elbow, and never, if it can be avoided, a hook.
Edit - Very good point about the headbutting. Incredibly powerful block to a head shot, and a fight changer. When I was much younger I punched someone in the forehead. Luckily, he turned out to be a little bitch. My hand was fucked for 3 weeks, and I would have been murdered by the guy I hit if he had any fight about him and wasn’t all talk.
Sentoguy,
Thank you for the explanation. That helps a lot.
I also can’t see the videos you tried to post, but I think I am tracking.
Your link-fu may be lacking, but your martial knowledge is way gooder.
Regards,
Robert A
London,
Essentially you are right about the head strikes vs body strikes (though many people also teach ice pick punching to the head, precisely what Irish mentioned).
You can still do plenty of damage to the body with sticky punching too, you just have to expand that 6 inch target to 12-18 inches. My instructors’ father used to tell them to imagine their fist actually coming out their opponents’ back, displacing the spine on the way out. Obviously that’s not physically possible, but the attempt to do so makes for some tremendous concussive forces to the internal organs. This will put someone down and keep them there if you land on the liver, solar plexus or heart.
In regards to elbows and headbutts, yes both great close range targets and both very durable (though technically elbows are generally cutting tools, while forearm smashes are impact weapons, but many people use elbows to describe both). Knees are also very durable weapons and probably the least likely weapons to get damaged when throwing to the body or head. But of course this thread is about punching power, so probably not really relevant.
The disadvantage to elbows though is range. At elbow range you’re pretty much already in grappling range and not only are you possibly gonna get grabbed, but you have so little time to react from that range. Obviously if you find yourself there, use whatever tools you are comfortable with to end things or bring it to a range that better suits you. But I’d personally rather use longer range tools like punching to keep someone from getting that close to me if I can. You can also always apply the hook mechanics to a palm strike, which is more durable than a closed fist if you’re worried about injuring your hand.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Sentoguy,
Thank you for the explanation. That helps a lot.
I also can’t see the videos you tried to post, but I think I am tracking.
Your link-fu may be lacking, but your martial knowledge is way gooder.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Huh, they both showed up on my computer when I went back to proofread my post, but I’m on my phone ATM, which doesn’t display any pictures or videos, so maybe I’ll have to check back later and see if I can’t get them to show up
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I have found (through bare knuckle light sparring with mates) that using your middle finger to aim, rather than your ring finger, does a little to reduce the risk of over connecting with the pinky.[/quote]
I do this as well. In theory I am in the “first two knuckles”, a.k.a. seiken, side of the argument. When actually working hard I have noticed with hooks that as long as I land my middle finger knuckle on the target that the shot seems to work out better for me than whomever I land it on.
This gets me looked at like a barbarian in some more traditional circles, but I noticed that there are plenty of guys who have done more throwing punches that advocate landing with the last three knuckles(a la Dempsey, or the Late Joe Lewis) and plenty others who advocate first two (Fedor, Mas Oyama) so I grabbed the commonality and noticed my hands stopped getting fucked up.
I basically “aim” with the middle knuckle and while I prefer it lands with the index knuckle with straight punches I notice that wether it has company from the index or the last two it tends to work out ok. Especially with hooks.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]idaho wrote:
One of the worst things that can happen in a fight, especially if weapons are involved, is broken fingers, very hard to manipulate a weapon: rifle, handgun, knife or flint tip spear with broken hands or fingers. You need to smash something during a fight and lack some type of impact weapon, I agree, use an elbow. [/quote]
Quoted for truth.
This is also a reason I think everyone should learn how to execute finger “locks” properly and effectively.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
FYI - Robert - one of my good friends is a very prominent barenuckle boxer. He throws the hook turned over, palm down, and KOs guys brutally with it in bareknuckle bouts.[/quote]
If this is the fella from the video, than you are understating his abilities.
Personally I split the difference. Most of the time my hand is “turned over” about half way(so my palm is about halfway between parallel and perpendicular to the floor). This “feels” natural to me, loose enough while still feeling stable in the shoulder, but it is really all about making sure I land the middle finger knuckle.
I have embarrassingly small hands so this could be sub optimal for anyone not so afflicted. When I say small, I mean my hands are about average size for a 5’4"-5’8" woman. I generally have room in a pair of men’s small gloves and don’t find medium nitrile gloves restrictive at all.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
That said, with completely unwrapped hands, I think hooks are to be avoided as far as is possible. If you can’t, the simple answer is pick which of your thumb or pinky you would rather have out of action should a fight continue. For me, I would always opt for a broken pinky before a broken thumb. Clearly, I have ignored my own wise internet advice on a number of occasions, idiot that I am. I have found (through bare knuckle light sparring with mates) that using your middle finger to aim, rather than your ring finger, does a little to reduce the risk of over connecting with the pinky. Generally at that range though I would be inclined to dirty box, and use the elbow as the main point of contact.
The hook is the most technical punch in boxing. Most boxers go a life time without ever truly nailing down a fantastic hook, that goes for amateurs AND pros. There is so much timing involved, so much that is dependent on perfect body position, that I think it is a very poor choice of punch where handwrapping and gloves are not available. I am sure there are many reasons that I fail to appreciate why a hook might be favorable to an elbow in a ‘live’ situation, but personally I would only use a hook as a last resort.[/quote]
I slightly disagree with this. I understand the problems of broken fingers, of course, but at the same time, the hook is going to be an excellent option barenuckle precisely because it’s hitting from the side, most likely to the jaw, which is a good target. Aiming further back and hitting where the jaw meets the skull in order to pop it out (as opposed to the front of the jaw) is also a good move, as is hooking to the cluster of nerves that sits in the neck right below the ear and behind the jaw.
You’re going to be at heavy risk of breaking your hand using straight punches, because although eye sockets and noses are great targets, if you hit the jaw or forehead straight on, you’re guaranteed to break some shit.
Good bareknucklers will actually headbutt your fist with their forehead when it comes in in an attempt to break your hand with their forehead.
[/quote]
Again, I agree in principle. In reality, I can count the number of ams and pros I know who can reliably put a hook exactly where they want it under extreme pressure on the fingers of my hands. Very roughly, I would say less than 1/10 BOXERS I know can consistently, accurately, place a hook under pressure.
I don’t doubt the effectiveness of hooks. As you say, they are a peach of a punch that can put more or less anyone, even someone MUCH bigger, on their arse when thrown right. For the vast majority of trained fighters though, I think they will likely do themselves as much damage as their opponent. Once things are at hooking range, I would always advise an elbow, and never, if it can be avoided, a hook.
Edit - Very good point about the headbutting. Incredibly powerful block to a head shot, and a fight changer. When I was much younger I punched someone in the forehead. Luckily, he turned out to be a little bitch. My hand was fucked for 3 weeks, and I would have been murdered by the guy I hit if he had any fight about him and wasn’t all talk. [/quote]
I see both points, but I would really suggest any boxer find a way to hook with bare hands. Elbows and/or “forearm smashes”, as Sento wrote, are more durable and I submit easier to use with power but for me they are much harder to land. I know that I have success landing a hook to the side of the jaw or to the carotid sinus around someone’s guard, but I have ended up beating on plenty of forearms with my “elbows”.
Honestly, a good hook and a properly used jab are things that the better boxer tends to bring to the table against anyone else. Watching MMA will make this clear. If wouldn’t want to give up either.
NERD/TECHNICAL note:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
cluster of nerves that sits in the neck right below the ear and behind the jaw.
[/quote]
I am pretty sure you are talking about the carotid sinus here.
Wiki:
Anatomically it is seen as a “bulge” in the internal carotid artery, major blood supply to the brain. Functionally it monitors blood pressure and this information is used so your body can decide if you need to increase or decrease heart rate, in order to increase or decrease BP.
When you crack some asshole here there is a temporary spike in pressure, because you are essentially striking the outside of an already high pressure system(think squeezing a balloon or a seeled plastic bottle). Said jag off’s body interprets this as “HOLY SHIT! We are running too high a pressure and are about to start blowing vessels. Tell the heart to SLOW THE FUCK DOWN!” Of course since the pressure is temporary, the sudden decrease in heart rate results in TOO LITTLE blood getting to the brain. This can bring mild to moderate vertigo/dizziness(feels like a “head rush” from standing up to fast), blacking out while still standing(i.e. “out on his feet”), all the way to actually passing out/losing consciousness.
This target is often used for martial arts “Dim Mak” or “Pressure Point” demo’s because for people unfamiliar with the mechanism it seems like a huge result for little effort and it is semi “comfortable” compared to getting dropped by a concussion.
Striking an artery carries with it serious risks and if the carotid(s) or the internal jugular(located adjacently) are damaged than complications can arise such as dissection(thing tears apart) or thrombosis(a clot breaks off and travels to the brain or lungs and fucks things up).
Of course if we are hitting someone in the neck and head then we have adopted a fairly “casual” attitude towards their well being. So fuck’ em. Put 'em on queer street and take every advantage.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I am pretty sure you are talking about the carotid sinus here.
Wiki:
Anatomically it is seen as a “bulge” in the internal carotid artery, major blood supply to the brain. Functionally it monitors blood pressure and this information is used so your body can decide if you need to increase or decrease heart rate, in order to increase or decrease BP.
When you crack some asshole here there is a temporary spike in pressure, because you are essentially striking the outside of an already high pressure system(think squeezing a balloon or a seeled plastic bottle). Said jag off’s body interprets this as “HOLY SHIT! We are running too high a pressure and are about to start blowing vessels. Tell the heart to SLOW THE FUCK DOWN!” Of course since the pressure is temporary, the sudden decrease in heart rate results in TOO LITTLE blood getting to the brain. This can bring mild to moderate vertigo/dizziness(feels like a “head rush” from standing up to fast), blacking out while still standing(i.e. “out on his feet”), all the way to actually passing out/losing consciousness.
This target is often used for martial arts “Dim Mak” or “Pressure Point” demo’s because for people unfamiliar with the mechanism it seems like a huge result for little effort and it is semi “comfortable” compared to getting dropped by a concussion.
Striking an artery carries with it serious risks and if the carotid(s) or the internal jugular(located adjacently) are damaged than complications can arise such as dissection(thing tears apart) or thrombosis(a clot breaks off and travels to the brain or lungs and fucks things up).
Of course if we are hitting someone in the neck and head then we have adopted a fairly “casual” attitude towards their well being. So fuck’ em. Put 'em on queer street and take every advantage.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Hey… I was a dirty streetfightin’ man way before I became a boxer… It’s probably safer than my other tactic of using three fingers to try and tear out the Adam’s apple anytime someone wants to “grapple” with me.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Hey… I was a dirty streetfightin’ man way before I became a boxer… It’s probably safer than my other tactic of using three fingers to try and tear out the Adam’s apple anytime someone wants to “grapple” with me.
;)[/quote]
HA!
I am sure as shit not going to call it “safe”. But I will opine that it could well be safer for the “receiver” than being dogpiled or beaten into compliance/non-threat status. It is certainly safer for the person landing the strike, since the effects are more immediate. And really, isn’t that who we care about.
So please no one interpret my posts as railing against the “brachial stun”/carotid/nerve cluster strike that is so popular in combatives and martial arts.
Regards,
Robert A
“So please no one interpret my posts as railing against the “brachial stun”/carotid/nerve cluster strike that is so popular in combatives and martial arts”
Robert,
You are so correct with this statement. The almost “universal love” for the brachial stun is a foundation in all LEO training, however, unless you have an eceptionally honest instructor with experience, what isnt taught, is its not the “death strike” to end all physical encounters. Yeah, it will work with moderate success on the sober suburban dweller, but, when you are dealing with a violent drunk /drugged/ crazed individual with a Thorazine depletion, its a different ball game. I have found through experience to carry as many arrows in my quiver as possible, if you become too attached to one or two techinques, someone is going come along and stick them up your butt…Sorry . personal bitch of mine. Too many times, I have heard an instrctor tell the newbie “this will work, this is guaranteed to put them on their ass”. Bullshit, there are no gurantees on the street.
[quote]idaho wrote:
“So please no one interpret my posts as railing against the “brachial stun”/carotid/nerve cluster strike that is so popular in combatives and martial arts”
Robert,
You are so correct with this statement. The almost “universal love” for the brachial stun is a foundation in all LEO training, however, unless you have an eceptionally honest instructor with experience, what isnt taught, is its not the “death strike” to end all physical encounters. Yeah, it will work with moderate success on the sober suburban dweller, but, when you are dealing with a violent drunk /drugged/ crazed individual with a Thorazine depletion, its a different ball game. I have found through experience to carry as many arrows in my quiver as possible, if you become too attached to one or two techinques, someone is going come along and stick them up your butt…Sorry . personal bitch of mine. Too many times, I have heard an instrctor tell the newbie “this will work, this is guaranteed to put them on their ass”. Bullshit, there are no gurantees on the street.
[/quote]
Right on. Anyone teaching that any unarmed technique will put someone out of commission 100% of the time is either misinformed, or trying to sell you something. The carotid sinus/line strike will generally at least cause a momentary stun (even if it’s just for a second) though, which should at least give you time to hit them with something else (or switch to a different arsenal if need be). Not all strikes have to be fight enders, you’ve got to have those set-up techniques as well.
Robert,
A couple tips/ things that might help you land elbows/forearms easier:
-
use trapping- if the opponents hands are up guarding their head, use one hand to trap the arm and clear it out of line so you can land with the elbow/forearm with the other arm. This also works well if you throw a linear/spearing elbow right between the arms of someone who is trying to “cover/shield” to the front, and then use that same arm to trap the hands across centerline as you follow through with the other elbow/forearm. Or, you can trap both wrists/arms of your opponent (works very well if they adopt a “peek a boo” or “earmuffs/binoculars” boxing guard), and then pick whichever side you want to strike with.
-
use a Muay Boran type clearing/cutting elbow- here you’ll use the hand on the arm you intend to elbow with to clear the arm and immediately follow through with the tip of the elbow. You can think of this like the classic hook into elbow dirty boxing technique, but use an open hand (thumb tucked to protect it) to avoid potentially damaging the knuckles. This can also be done straight across or down at a variety of angles and can be used either to the head or arm/biceps/shoulder as a destruction. You can also follow it up with some backwards elbows (which are incredibly difficult to defend), a foot sweep/Russian trip, a standing armbar/come along, a snatch single leg, etc…
Keep in mind though that trapping (in any incarnation) can only be effectively used against someone who is being defensive. If they are attempting to hit back or counter punch rather than block or cover, don’t try to use trapping.
Ok, I will not talk here about the importance of technique, timing and accuracy… What I will tell you is that in order to generate a powerful punch with a snap you have to be able to relax your upper body with arms before you start generating a punch movement… this could also belong to a term technique but nevertheless… how to achieve this? of course by practicing and hitting various types of bags and shadow boxing.
What else can help to achieve this relaxation of the shoulder area?? - SAUNA!, simple RUSSIAN SAUNA, and in this heat you have to hit your body with oak tree branches, birch tree branches are also good. But the heat in sauna has to be really high. Steam room doesn’t have exactly the same good effect although it also helps a little bit. Boxers in Soviet Union used to use this method constantly and especially a day before the fight. Massage is also a very good stuff, and American professional boxers use it constantly.
When you are relaxed, you punch fast, when you punch fast, you hit hard, when you hit hard…
Ok, hopefully this works this time.
Ice Pick punching (pay special attention to Justin’s hook):
Sticky punching:
Sentoguy, some nice videos. I especially like the bits on the double hook and keeping the hook in general tight and powered by the hips. Freddie Roach says the left hook is the most dangerous punch in boxing? He might be right!
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
Sentoguy, some nice videos. I especially like the bits on the double hook and keeping the hook in general tight and powered by the hips. Freddie Roach says the left hook is the most dangerous punch in boxing? He might be right![/quote]
That “inside hook” that Lewis is showing is devastatingly powerful. In close it’s extremely difficult to see coming and will sneak right between or around the guard. If you understand the body mechanics you can just about pick even larger opponents up off their feet with that punch. Targeted at the liver, it’s a fight ender.