Best Exercise for Knockout Power

Training
21

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
From a standpoint of technique…
A cursory knowledge of physiology will tell you that the human body (while resilient) is actually in a fragile state of balance that can be upset by slight external forces. You don’t need THAT much force to knock someone out. You don’t need that much force to even break a bone. It just requires that you do it properly.

From the standpoint of physical capability…
General Physical Preparation: Squats, deadlifts, overhead press, weighted chins, Hang Clean/Snatch
Special Physical Preparation: Heavy Bag, Focus Mitts, Sparring

The problem with asking this type of question…

  • Asking how to punch harder (in any form) preludes that you intend to fight. And punching hard is a small fragment of being a fighter. And (as beautifully illustrated earlier) there is no olympic one hard ass punch event.

  • The kinematics and biomechanics of punching are more akin to a pirouette or throwing a baseball than they are to the bench press or even a thrower. And that’s just assuming you mean a straight right not a lead hook or an uppercut.

  • Because this preludes that you intend to fight there are too many other variables to consider. If the shotputter had to also hit a midair moving target whilst not being hit himself then we can discuss the similarities in preparation. Again baseball is more similar in kinematics.

  • You quickly hit a point of diminishing returns when attempting to glean more power for your punch from other exercises. If your bodyweight is 200, and you can press your bodyweight overhead (a considerably strong guy) will overhead pressing 250 really increase your punching power? At what point is enough enough? A LOT lower than most presume.

  • Striking requires a ridiculous amount of coordination. Everyone assumes they can punch because they’ve hit something before. Just like everyone assumes that they’re an excellent driver because they commute everyday. Just because you drive everyday does not make you qualified to drive in NASCAR or Formula 1. Just because you’re strong and can hit a heavy bag does not mean you punch hard or even know how to punch properly. There is too much nuance involved. So more than likely you will need to refine your technique And I’m still talking about throwing ONE lone punch here not all the other variables involved in fighting.

The difference here is COORDINATION…or Skill… Or Technique… however you want to define it… It requires punching a lot
[/quote]

Great post.

Also, a bit ‘bout this here practicin’ stuff:

FightinIrish mentioned how important relaxation is to hitting, and that weights really don’t help that. Relaxation is half of it. It helps you develop your momentum. The other half is being tense/tight when you need to so that all your body weight slams into the target. Muscular strength absolutely helps with this. Of course it is isometric strength because you are trying ot resist joint motion(in your wrist for example). Research has shown that concentric and ecentric contraction strength(lifting and lowering the weights) stop conferring a huge benefit to isometric strength relatively early. Additionally, isometric strength is highly joint/body position specific.

So, the best way to work this would be to practice/train resisting the motion/forces of impact in the actual motor pattern. In dumb guy normal speak, that means we should hit pads, the heavy bag, and each other with proper technique. Which is what boxers and kickboxers do. Cause it works. In reality. It is also what fighters do. Which makes sense, because losing a fight sucks way worse than misinterpreting a study, or mis-reading Super Training.

Regards,

Robert A

22

To all who have posted: Thank you

This topic comes up at least once a week, when we are all able to train together and exchange ideas. This is an eclectic group, made up of instructors from the SF, Private Security Contractors, LEO’s, and Dipolmatic Security Teams. I have worked with guys (pads, light sparring) the size or Brontosauruses, who couldn’t knock a sick kitten off a litter box, to lightweights who could put you on another planet. All train and work out, all are “strong” for their jobs. All want to hit harder, all want a one shot punch that will crack steel. I am going to pass along each of your comments during tomorrow’s scheduled meeting.

My own humble opinion: I onced was privileged to train under a instructor who was world class and had the unique ability to pass his knowledge on to his students. He was constantly pointing out that “fighting is a game of inches” move in an inch on a straight punch to create more power, slide to the left half- inch for more power, etc… so to echo his thoughts, timing and coordination, coupled with the mental ability to process your opponents movements will serve you well. Thanks again, great topic.

23

Everything comes second to experience. My brother and I fight often enough for me to say a few things for sure…

  1. I’m stronger.
  2. I’m faster.
  3. I’m smarter.
  4. I can’t grapple to save my own life.

He’s spent more time wrestling with other people than me and because of this I need to keep him slightly farther than arms reach or I’m screwed. Experience.

24

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
From a standpoint of technique…
A cursory knowledge of physiology will tell you that the human body (while resilient) is actually in a fragile state of balance that can be upset by slight external forces. You don’t need THAT much force to knock someone out. You don’t need that much force to even break a bone. It just requires that you do it properly.

From the standpoint of physical capability…
General Physical Preparation: Squats, deadlifts, overhead press, weighted chins, Hang Clean/Snatch
Special Physical Preparation: Heavy Bag, Focus Mitts, Sparring

The problem with asking this type of question…

  • Asking how to punch harder (in any form) preludes that you intend to fight. And punching hard is a small fragment of being a fighter. And (as beautifully illustrated earlier) there is no olympic one hard ass punch event.

  • The kinematics and biomechanics of punching are more akin to a pirouette or throwing a baseball than they are to the bench press or even a thrower. And that’s just assuming you mean a straight right not a lead hook or an uppercut.

  • Because this preludes that you intend to fight there are too many other variables to consider. If the shotputter had to also hit a midair moving target whilst not being hit himself then we can discuss the similarities in preparation. Again baseball is more similar in kinematics.

  • You quickly hit a point of diminishing returns when attempting to glean more power for your punch from other exercises. If your bodyweight is 200, and you can press your bodyweight overhead (a considerably strong guy) will overhead pressing 250 really increase your punching power? At what point is enough enough? A LOT lower than most presume.

  • Striking requires a ridiculous amount of coordination. Everyone assumes they can punch because they’ve hit something before. Just like everyone assumes that they’re an excellent driver because they commute everyday. Just because you drive everyday does not make you qualified to drive in NASCAR or Formula 1. Just because you’re strong and can hit a heavy bag does not mean you punch hard or even know how to punch properly. There is too much nuance involved. So more than likely you will need to refine your technique And I’m still talking about throwing ONE lone punch here not all the other variables involved in fighting.

The difference here is COORDINATION…or Skill… Or Technique… however you want to define it… It requires punching a lot
[/quote]

Great post.

Also, a bit ‘bout this here practicin’ stuff:

FightinIrish mentioned how important relaxation is to hitting, and that weights really don’t help that. Relaxation is half of it. It helps you develop your momentum. The other half is being tense/tight when you need to so that all your body weight slams into the target. Muscular strength absolutely helps with this. Of course it is isometric strength because you are trying ot resist joint motion(in your wrist for example). Research has shown that concentric and ecentric contraction strength(lifting and lowering the weights) stop conferring a huge benefit to isometric strength relatively early. Additionally, isometric strength is highly joint/body position specific.

So, the best way to work this would be to practice/train resisting the motion/forces of impact in the actual motor pattern. In dumb guy normal speak, that means we should hit pads, the heavy bag, and each other with proper technique. Which is what boxers and kickboxers do. Cause it works. In reality. It is also what fighters do. Which makes sense, because losing a fight sucks way worse than misinterpreting a study, or mis-reading Super Training.

Regards,

Robert A

[/quote]

This is an interesting idea, that hadn’t occurred to me before. Now that I think about it, I have actually seen some noticeable correlation between an increase in my punching power (straight punches only), through increased stability at the point of contact, and the introduction of handstand work, and later weighted handstand work, in to my training regime. This was done primarily to rehab a dislocated shoulder, but two years on, there is no doubt I am hitting harder. Handstand work, and partial holds through the range of motion, do correlate exactly with a noticeable improvement in the concussive power of my punches.

This would make sense, as I was always told punching (to the head (body punching you have to ‘dig’ more, obviously)) was like striking a cue ball in pool, in that you want it to hit the coloured ball and stop dead, transferring all its momentum to the coloured ball. Any weakness in the chain of your body, from toe to knuckle, is a point at which energy can escape.

25

Lots of good advice/ideas in this thread.

I find that the idea of throwing loose, relaxed punches is easy to understand but hard for most people to do. People tend to have a lot more tension in their bodies than they think.

Also, going from completely relaxed/loose to tensing on impact is more complicated than people think. I’ve had good experience having people tense AS they connect, vs tensing right before they connect. It’s a very slight difference but one that will makes your hands feel much “heavier”.

I sometimes have people just raise their arm over their head and drop their fist on to my chest. Once they figure out how to relax/tense properly to drop the most weight into me and make their hands feel the “heaviest”, then we work on translating that same feeling to punching.

26

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Schwarz makes an interesting post, and makes a lot of sense, particularly about correcting weak links in the chain.

That said, I know countless little guys who are big, big hitters, despite a lack of any appreciable muscle mass. For example, I am regarded as heavy handed in my gym, on a pound for pound basis, and I’ve been fighting competitively for 14 years or so. However, there is a kid of 15 in my gym, who fights nearly 20lbs lighter than me, and this kid straight up hits harder than me. No kidding, we spar a lot of the same guys, and everyone thinks he hits harder. He does no weights, no plyo stuff really, and yet he is a devastating puncher, and a top amatuer. So whilst weights may improve him a little, there is no doubt in my mind that timing, and technique (technique in the sense of the body working as one, rather than picture perfect shots) are the most important aspects of being a big puncher. [/quote]

I would completely agree with this! And I would put all of what you just said into the category of “technical/sport knowledge”. Some guys are just naturals. But, based on my experience with mma guys, I firmly believe that attention to the proper muscle groups and kinetic chains can really amp up your power and fill some gaps. This transfer to punching is I believe very much accentuated by becoming more technical and more finely coordinated in your sport (I say “finely” because there is a lot of finesse and detail in learning how to throw a beautifully powerful punch–some guys can do it naturally and some have to learn/work)

Schwarz’s post is definitely gold.

I would also put relaxation/looseness into the category of technical sport knowledge. And as Robert A excellently pointed out it is a LOT harder for people to do than to talk about. You can understand it easily, but you have to really focus on practicing perfectly to wire it in. Gold as usual Robert.

I will tell you flat out, I’ve seen guys hit harder by getting good at olympic lift variations and explosive work. It will never, ever cover for bad technique though. Or tension filled punches. Not in a million years. The reason the olympic lifts have worked for people is their explicit focus on hip explosion and extension…which of course is part and parcel of a good punch. But you have to do them technically correctly. A butchered oly lift won’t develop any hip explosion. The hip needs to fire like a gunshot. On time (not early), and explosively.

27

Honestly the only way weight training increase my power as far I could perceive - was getting bigger, which was simply physics.

I moved up in weight, was still as fast or faster (more experienced too etc) but with more mass on my frame, so naturally a right hand from a 190lb version of me is going to be more than it was from a 150lb version of me.

Of course the catch is weight classes, moving up in weight means you are also up against guys who punch harder.

I’d like to think weight training benefited me more than that, and perhaps it did, but if I stop to think about it I’ve always been an explosive/fast fighter, I picked up how to turn/rotate my hip violently into a punch very early on, so I’ve always had a nice straight right.

Interestingly, so many coaches have tried to get me to throw the left hook with the elbow pointing out horizontally, but I have far more power when shooting it with the elbow angled down, and more from the hip so to speak. I don’t know what the mechanics are behind it, but I know i can fire a short lead hook must faster and more violently than with my elbow pointed out on a flat plane, so I’ll keep doing what I’m doing I guess…

28

@ Aussie Davo - I agree completely. I haven’t thrown a hook the way it is supposed to be thrown for 7 or 8 years now. I never felt strong in that position, and I could never get the mechanics of it quite right. I think it might be a function of individual shoulder sockets, as mine always felt vulnerable. My shovel hook, and my hook off the jab/lead hook (ie more looping/long range punches) are both strong shots for me.

By contrast, look at a guy like Henry Cooper, with perhaps the greatest left hook ever, and his was absolutely textbook. Elbow up, and probably only travelled 6 inches, but put many great fighters down and out. You only have to look at ‘Henry’s Hammer’ and what it did to Ali, to see that size, weight, and strength, are less significant impacting factors on concussive power than sheer technique is.

Good fighting technique is finding what works for you, and allows you to throw effective, accurate, fast punches. It’s not a diagram in a book.

29

Two good posts before. After two years of trying to learn to throw the “traditional” palm-down, 90-degree-angle elbow hook, I’ve given up and moved towards what my new coach is telling me to do - throw it with the fist vertical, like I’m “holding a cup of coffee.” For some reason, that little adjustment is allowing me to turn my body into the hook way more than I ever have before.

Like you said London - it may be shoulder mechanics (and mine are worrisome by nature) - or whatever, but I’m going to throw what works, not what the textbook says.

30

I train a variety of combat athletes and agree that technique is #1. A close second is being coordinated as you move and throw strikes…meaning, how well do the chain of muscles contract and transfer energy. I believe that traditional lifts are important, but it will probably be different for each person. Everyone has different imbalances, old injuries, ability levels, etc that will affect how well they move and transfer power.

In order to give the right answer, you’d have to assess the individual, see where they are deficient and address their weak link. I typically start my athletes out with a variety og stability exercises and progress into strength and power movements once they develop a good foundation. Not always the most exciting, but it develops a good foundation that we can build on over time and avoids training related injuries.

31

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Two good posts before. After two years of trying to learn to throw the “traditional” palm-down, 90-degree-angle elbow hook, I’ve given up and moved towards what my new coach is telling me to do - throw it with the fist vertical, like I’m “holding a cup of coffee.” For some reason, that little adjustment is allowing me to turn my body into the hook way more than I ever have before.

Like you said London - it may be shoulder mechanics (and mine are worrisome by nature) - or whatever, but I’m going to throw what works, not what the textbook says.[/quote]

They are two totally different punches IME and depending on how close you are to your opponent one might be more appropriate than the other.

The palm-down 90 degree hook is mechanically more like a straight punch thrown at a sharp angle. When the punch makes contact the elbow, shoulder and hand should all line up on the same plane and your body must be rotated so that you actually have leverage to push through the target (very similar to throwing a power lead hand but just from very close proximity). I am also not a fan of “ice pick punching” with this type of punch, but instead prefer to “stick” it (probably largely because I am used to sparring with people who are not only striking with me but can also grapple me and take me down and that’s a lot harder to do if you “stick” your punches). This style of hook is also a very close range weapon. If you are further than elbow distance from your opponent then you will find this very awkward, especially if you are trying to “ice pick” it. In close it is somewhat safer in terms of protecting your thumb from being broken if you are wearing small or no gloves though.

The thumb up hook is more of an elliptical motion (more of a true “hook”) and a better option for distance hooking IME. At impact you still need to have the leverage to push/punch through the target, but it’s more like swinging through something on the end of an arc (like a baseball bat swing), than hitting straight through something. The forearm/elbow and fist still need to be lined up with the “line of force” though for maximal leverage and mechanical advantage.

I find that most people pick up on the thumb up/circular hook faster and more easily than the thumb down 90 degree “tight” hook. Just as most people pick up on circular punching quicker than linear punching. I’ve read that circular movements are more “primal” (“reptilian brain” if you believe in that type of thing) while linear movements are more “fine motor skills” (“mammalian brain”). It is definitely true that you won’t find many untrained people throwing linear strikes in fights, and even trained ones will favor circular strikes once fatigue or stress come into play.

32

I see where you are coming from on this Sento, but I would have to disagree a little, from a purely boxing perspective at least. In my experience, some people are good at both and find a way to make them work, some are only good at one, but find a way to make it effective at any range. It also depends on the height, build and style of the boxer. For me, I am usually taller than my opponents, and I like to use a lot of angles. If I came up from a crouch to my full extension, and threw a 90 degree thumb down hook, then I would glance off the tops of most of my opponents heads. The 90 degree hook has been a redundant punch for much of my amateur career. It is also the natural trajectory for my shoulder. After more than a decade drilling the 90 degree hook, I am confident that for me personally it is not a natural or effective punch.

For example, watch this David Lemieux highlight. - YouTube

Lemiuex is a hugely exciting fighter, with a devastating hook, and a lot of KOs(in case anyone hadn’t heard of him). He shows how effective the thumb up hook is as a short range punch (see particularly the clip of him against Delray Raines), and how the elbow parallel to the floor, thumb down hook can be used at range with terrifying effect.

33

Striking is all about kinetic linking. I disagree with the sentiment that no amount of physical training can make you hit harder or be capable of knockout power. I truly believe that in accordance with technique, if one includes exercises that are based on full body driving power, your kinetic linking can be improved thusly, improving technique and adding muscle which increase body mass which puts more weight behind a strike.

A great example of exercises than can help improve your kinetic linking ability whilst at the same time building muscle would be sledgehammer drills on a tire, or medicine ball throws. Exericsies that help you with kinetic linking movement. Now a well placed heavy laden strike could smoke anyone, but it doesn’t mean you have to be absent technique to achieve the same.

34

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I see where you are coming from on this Sento, but I would have to disagree a little, from a purely boxing perspective at least. In my experience, some people are good at both and find a way to make them work, some are only good at one, but find a way to make it effective at any range. It also depends on the height, build and style of the boxer. For me, I am usually taller than my opponents, and I like to use a lot of angles. If I came up from a crouch to my full extension, and threw a 90 degree thumb down hook, then I would glance off the tops of most of my opponents heads. The 90 degree hook has been a redundant punch for much of my amateur career. It is also the natural trajectory for my shoulder. After more than a decade drilling the 90 degree hook, I am confident that for me personally it is not a natural or effective punch.

For example, watch this David Lemieux highlight.

Lemiuex is a hugely exciting fighter, with a devastating hook, and a lot of KOs(in case anyone hadn’t heard of him). He shows how effective the thumb up hook is as a short range punch (see particularly the clip of him against Delray Raines), and how the elbow parallel to the floor, thumb down hook can be used at range with terrifying effect.

[/quote]

Well, first I wasn’t trying to suggest that a thumb up hook couldn’t be effective in close, just that the thumb down position places the thumb in a position where it is less likely to get broken should the opponent duck forward and you catch your thumb on the back/top of his head. That little tip comes from Sugar Ray Robinson himself who taught it to Joe Lewis who taught it to me. There used to be a video of Joe teaching it on youtube, but it appears they must have taken it down.

The thumb down hook can also be effective at a distance, but it turns into more of an angled straight punch than a true hook. Gloves and wrapping your hands as you do in boxing will also protect your hands better and make it a little safer at that range.

You are of course right that height, build, and style will make some punches more or less practical for certain fighters.

In the end it’s whatever works for the individual.

35

Yep, didn’t quite get that from your earlier post. Probably read it too quickly.

I certainly take the point, and would be fairly stupid to argue with the likes of SRR and Joe Lewis. However, he says, stupidly, in those days, gloves and hand wrapping were very different things. These days, the risk of breaking your thumb is dramatically reduced by the well padded gloves, hand wrapping inside the glove, and the fact that the thumb is often physically attached to the glove. Amateur boxing now would be laughed out of town by the old time fighters. My uncle, now 75 and a former champion boxer in his day, reminds me of that fact every time he watches me fight.

36

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
the thumb down position places the thumb in a position where it is less likely to get broken
[/quote]
First, I hope you are appropriately embarrassed by your “riches” with regards to teachers.

Second, I would like to derail this a bit for selfish reasons.

Does this advice go for bare knuckle punching as well?

I have always been more concerned with accidently landing with my last, i.e. pinkie/small finger knuckle, when throwing hooks in tight than having someone duck into my thumb. I have had the latter happen, but if I don’t mind the former it happens consistently. Keeping in mind I have never trained with the intention of having properly wrapped and gloved hands on when I need to throw a hook.

Also, if I may not be tracking what you mean by “stick” versus “ice pick”. Does “stick” imply a little longer fist to target contact?

Regards,

Robert A

37

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
the thumb down position places the thumb in a position where it is less likely to get broken
[/quote]
First, I hope you are appropriately embarrassed by your “riches” with regards to teachers.
[/quote]

I am. :slight_smile:

Yes, absolutely goes for bare knuckle punching. When punching with no gloves at all it’s even more of a concern.

Both are concerns of course.

“Ice pick” punching is where you are essentially hitting the opponent with the intention of kind of “ripping”/grazing/digging your punches. A lot of boxing coaches teach this type of punching, especially to the body as it tends to hinder breathing as the rounds progress.

“Sticky” punching is where you seek to bisect the target directly through the center of gravity. This causes a “poling/wedging” effect and makes it much harder for people to enter on you. Not as much of a concern for boxers, but very helpful for MMA fighters, RMA, or really anyone who has to worry about grappling.

In example, the fighter demonstrating the hooks in this video is throwing them “ice pick” style:

Conversely watch Joe Lewis hooking the bag in this video and notice that he is attempting to punch straight through the bag. He also shows a great example of an “inside hook”.

Both types of punching are technically correct, but “sticky punching” is more effective for MMA/RMA IME.

38

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Yep, didn’t quite get that from your earlier post. Probably read it too quickly.

I certainly take the point, and would be fairly stupid to argue with the likes of SRR and Joe Lewis. However, he says, stupidly, in those days, gloves and hand wrapping were very different things. These days, the risk of breaking your thumb is dramatically reduced by the well padded gloves, hand wrapping inside the glove, and the fact that the thumb is often physically attached to the glove. Amateur boxing now would be laughed out of town by the old time fighters. My uncle, now 75 and a former champion boxer in his day, reminds me of that fact every time he watches me fight. [/quote]

Absolutely, fully wrapped/taped hands, and gloves with attached thumbs will go a log way to protecting the thumbs while hooking.

39

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
the thumb down position places the thumb in a position where it is less likely to get broken
[/quote]
First, I hope you are appropriately embarrassed by your “riches” with regards to teachers.

Second, I would like to derail this a bit for selfish reasons.

Does this advice go for bare knuckle punching as well?

I have always been more concerned with accidently landing with my last, i.e. pinkie/small finger knuckle, when throwing hooks in tight than having someone duck into my thumb. I have had the latter happen, but if I don’t mind the former it happens consistently. Keeping in mind I have never trained with the intention of having properly wrapped and gloved hands on when I need to throw a hook.

Also, if I may not be tracking what you mean by “stick” versus “ice pick”. Does “stick” imply a little longer fist to target contact?

Regards,

Robert A

[/quote]

Also, if you throw a vertical fist/thumb up hook then landing with only the pinky knuckle isn’t as much of a concern. With horizontal hooking on the other hand it becomes much more of a concern (especially if you are ice pick punching).

40

I can’t see the links you embedded Sento, but from what I can glean of it, it sounds like how fighters should punch to the head, whilst ice pick punching is how fighters punch to the body. In boxing, the best fighters strike very differently to the body than they do to the head - digging to the body, punching through the target to the head (ie mike tyson being interviewed when he said that he always aims for a spot 6 inches behind his opponents head.

That said, with completely unwrapped hands, I think hooks are to be avoided as far as is possible. If you can’t, the simple answer is pick which of your thumb or pinky you would rather have out of action should a fight continue. For me, I would always opt for a broken pinky before a broken thumb. Clearly, I have ignored my own wise internet advice on a number of occasions, idiot that I am. I have found (through bare knuckle light sparring with mates) that using your middle finger to aim, rather than your ring finger, does a little to reduce the risk of over connecting with the pinky. Generally at that range though I would be inclined to dirty box, and use the elbow as the main point of contact.

The hook is the most technical punch in boxing. Most boxers go a life time without ever truly nailing down a fantastic hook, that goes for amateurs AND pros. There is so much timing involved, so much that is dependent on perfect body position, that I think it is a very poor choice of punch where handwrapping and gloves are not available. I am sure there are many reasons that I fail to appreciate why a hook might be favorable to an elbow in a ‘live’ situation, but personally I would only use a hook as a last resort.