Best CT Program for a Skinny Guy?

And I do mean skinny.

Currently, I’m 6’2" (long limbed and narrow) and about 175-180, around 9-11% bf if I had to guess. I’ve been running 531 BBB for 4 cycles now, and while I’m making some decent strength gains, I’ve not put on any tangible size. I’ve actually lost weight…

Jim has some great training philosophies and tenets, and I 100% respect his program and the results it gets folks, but I feel more in tune with CT’s training methods and goals. While being strong is great, I want to at least LOOK like I put in half of the work that I’m putting in. I don’t want to start messing around with and bastardizing Jim’s program, but I really feel like I could/should be doing more volume and more frequency. I also really value the dynamic nature of lifts like cleans, C+J, and SGHP more than the “big 3”.

I started looking over CT’s old articles, and am super anxious to get started with a new program once I finish this last cycle. The problem is, I have no idea which one to start with!

Current info:
Been lifting for ~3 years, with a prolonged hiatus due to shoulder injury that just resolved this fall.
Deadlift - 315x1, 275x5
Bench - 215x1, 185x5
Squat - 225x1, 185x5 (TERRIBLE!)
OHP - 155x1, 125x5
Pullup - +25lb x 5, BW x 18-20
Power Clean - 135x5

Clearly I really need to work on squatting, as I have tried to re-learn my form for proper depth and been humbled by the weights. Other than that, I’d just like to up my overall mass. I can train pretty much 7 days a week, afternoon/evening M-F and anytime on weekends, albeit at a commercial gym (no platform).

I was looking at 6 Weeks to Superhero, perhaps with a Friend or Foe (Squats) thrown in after? Is there a better place to start? I know CT has a TON of programs, and I am dying to get some structured assistance, but just need to be pointed in the right direction. Kick my ass!

Thanks!

By the sound of things nutrition is your main problem -If you’re losing weight on the BBB template you should be eating waaay more

anyway…

[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
By the sound of things nutrition is your main problem -If you’re losing weight on the BBB template you should be eating waaay more

anyway…

[/quote]

Thanks Badger. Nutrition is one of the things I’m really trying to dial in, but you’re right that I’m probably setting my macro’s too low. I was aiming for ~3800 kcal per day, which should amount to a ~350cal surplus, but perhaps I should ramp it up. I’m just a bit afraid of carbs outside peri-workout or breakfast, so that’s probably part of it. As a former skinny-fat guy, remaining lean is a great source of pride for me, but it’s probably stunting my progress. Just trying to avoid a “dirty bulk”, even though I’m quite strict.

The program you listed looks interesting. Do you know offhand what the weight used is supposed to be in terms of 1RM? I get that it’s mostly autoregulating and at your own pace/intensity, just trying to see what the linear progression would look like over those weeks.

Thanks!

At one point I was 6’3" & 163lbs soaking wet. I know what it’s like to start at skinny. Here’s some things I think will really help.

  1. Master form & proper technique over everything. Muscles don’t have eyes they respond to tension.

  2. Master peri-workout nutrition & do not fear post workout carbs. The carbs in Plazma & MAG-10 will not make you fat, they will raise your insulin to protect & help build muscle.

  3. Master sleep & recovery. If you can’t improve every workout either sleep more or eat more. Keep a workout journal. There’s a lot of conflicting information. This will help determine what you respond to.

  4. Squat, bench, Deadlift, chins, push-press, Olympic lifts, loaded carries, prowler, jumps, these will get you jacked.

  5. Lift around people stronger than you.

  6. Focus on getting stronger in your big basic lifts, you will grow.

Whatever program you use these principles will help. I’ve had a lot of success with practicing a lift often & focusing on the speed of movement so I don’t over train my nervous system. Good luck!

At one point I was 6’3" & 163lbs soaking wet. I know what it’s like to start at skinny. Here’s some things I think will really help.

  1. Master form & proper technique over everything. Muscles don’t have eyes they respond to tension.

  2. Master peri-workout nutrition & do not fear post workout carbs. The carbs in Plazma & MAG-10 will not make you fat, they will raise your insulin to protect & help build muscle.

  3. Master sleep & recovery. If you can’t improve every workout either sleep more or eat more. Keep a workout journal. There’s a lot of conflicting information. This will help determine what you respond to.

  4. Squat, bench, Deadlift, chins, push-press, Olympic lifts, loaded carries, prowler, jumps, these will get you jacked.

  5. Lift around people stronger than you.

  6. Focus on getting stronger in your big basic lifts, you will grow.

Whatever program you use these principles will help. I’ve had a lot of success with practicing a lift often & focusing on the speed of movement so I don’t over train my nervous system. Good luck!

[quote]sput79 wrote:
At one point I was 6’3" & 163lbs soaking wet. I know what it’s like to start at skinny. Here’s some things I think will really help.

  1. Master form & proper technique over everything. Muscles don’t have eyes they respond to tension.

  2. Master peri-workout nutrition & do not fear post workout carbs. The carbs in Plazma & MAG-10 will not make you fat, they will raise your insulin to protect & help build muscle.

  3. Master sleep & recovery. If you can’t improve every workout either sleep more or eat more. Keep a workout journal. There’s a lot of conflicting information. This will help determine what you respond to.

  4. Squat, bench, Deadlift, chins, push-press, Olympic lifts, loaded carries, prowler, jumps, these will get you jacked.

  5. Lift around people stronger than you.

  6. Focus on getting stronger in your big basic lifts, you will grow.

Whatever program you use these principles will help. I’ve had a lot of success with practicing a lift often & focusing on the speed of movement so I don’t over train my nervous system. Good luck![/quote]

I’m in the same position at 6’ 166 lbs.

What if you can’t sleep? The harder I train the worse I sleep until eventual burnout. It is one thing to say one should dial in sleep but ability to sleep once you are in bed is not a voluntary thing.

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]sput79 wrote:
At one point I was 6’3" & 163lbs soaking wet. I know what it’s like to start at skinny. Here’s some things I think will really help.

  1. Master form & proper technique over everything. Muscles don’t have eyes they respond to tension.

  2. Master peri-workout nutrition & do not fear post workout carbs. The carbs in Plazma & MAG-10 will not make you fat, they will raise your insulin to protect & help build muscle.

  3. Master sleep & recovery. If you can’t improve every workout either sleep more or eat more. Keep a workout journal. There’s a lot of conflicting information. This will help determine what you respond to.

  4. Squat, bench, Deadlift, chins, push-press, Olympic lifts, loaded carries, prowler, jumps, these will get you jacked.

  5. Lift around people stronger than you.

  6. Focus on getting stronger in your big basic lifts, you will grow.

Whatever program you use these principles will help. I’ve had a lot of success with practicing a lift often & focusing on the speed of movement so I don’t over train my nervous system. Good luck![/quote]

I’m in the same position at 6’ 166 lbs.

What if you can’t sleep? The harder I train the worse I sleep until eventual burnout. It is one thing to say one should dial in sleep but ability to sleep once you are in bed is not a voluntary thing.
[/quote]

I would try Z-12 from Biotest. It works great for me and allows me to sleep well and feel rested when I wake up.

If you’re not sleeping it could be a lot of things. You could be not recovering well enough too.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_thibaudeau/easyhard_gainer

This was CTs reply for me (fairly similar).

[quote]Apothecary wrote:

[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
By the sound of things nutrition is your main problem -If you’re losing weight on the BBB template you should be eating waaay more

anyway…

[/quote]

Thanks Badger. Nutrition is one of the things I’m really trying to dial in, but you’re right that I’m probably setting my macro’s too low. I was aiming for ~3800 kcal per day, which should amount to a ~350cal surplus, but perhaps I should ramp it up. I’m just a bit afraid of carbs outside peri-workout or breakfast, so that’s probably part of it. As a former skinny-fat guy, remaining lean is a great source of pride for me, but it’s probably stunting my progress. Just trying to avoid a “dirty bulk”, even though I’m quite strict.

The program you listed looks interesting. Do you know offhand what the weight used is supposed to be in terms of 1RM? I get that it’s mostly autoregulating and at your own pace/intensity, just trying to see what the linear progression would look like over those weeks.

Thanks![/quote]

Re nutrition first port of call is to really push protein and periworkout nutrition, if you’re still not gaining then add a some good fats and then clean carbs.

Re training yes you autoregulate. I don’t want to speak for thib but for 6s your top weight would be around 80%Rm,3s 85% and 321 prob 90%. Progression is really down to how much you put into the program but as long as you stop a rep short of failure/stay fresh I presume you will make PRs on the big lifts by the end of the program.

A big clue is in your statement “The harder I train the worse I sleep until eventual burnout”. This is CNS fatigue/burnout. In my experience what you just described in that sentence is a 100% certain clue that you are either programing your training incorrectly, or your diet is inadequate for your training. The inability to sleep soundly is likely due to low neurotransmitter levels from excessive stress. Now, this stress can be coming from “incorrect” training (too much volume relative to intensity, for example), or poor diet (insufficient overall calories, poor quality, bad timing, etc.) or a combination of the two.

I would do some research on CNS recovery. In fact, learn all you can about the role of the CNS in training/recovery–the information will serve you well for the rest of your training life. Hope that gives you some things to think about.

Crowbar

[quote]sput79 wrote:
At one point I was 6’3" & 163lbs soaking wet. I know what it’s like to start at skinny. Here’s some things I think will really help.

  1. Master form & proper technique over everything. Muscles don’t have eyes they respond to tension.

  2. Master peri-workout nutrition & do not fear post workout carbs. The carbs in Plazma & MAG-10 will not make you fat, they will raise your insulin to protect & help build muscle.

  3. Master sleep & recovery. If you can’t improve every workout either sleep more or eat more. Keep a workout journal. There’s a lot of conflicting information. This will help determine what you respond to.

  4. Squat, bench, Deadlift, chins, push-press, Olympic lifts, loaded carries, prowler, jumps, these will get you jacked.

  5. Lift around people stronger than you.

  6. Focus on getting stronger in your big basic lifts, you will grow.

Whatever program you use these principles will help. I’ve had a lot of success with practicing a lift often & focusing on the speed of movement so I don’t over train my nervous system. Good luck![/quote]

Thanks for the input man.

I definitely feel the importance of #1. I realized how shitty my squat form was (Bro-squatting about 1/3-1/2 ROM), and have been focusing on it a lot…even if it means humbling weights. Same with my deadlift, as I tend to get into a fishing rod style as the weights creep above 315.

I should have clarified a bit, but yes, the times that I DO apply carbs liberally are breakfast (whey+oats shake and some eggs usually) and peri-workout, plus the post workout meal.

Sleep has been great, I picked up some ZMA (as someone else mentioned) and found it to be great at helping me STAY asleep. I don’t have issues getting there usually, as I try to exhaust myself as much as possible.

And finally, I love the idea of a big focus on the multi-joint lifts, especially Oly lifts and carries. 531 preaches the value of the “big 3” (+OHP), but just lacks the volume for me to really feel it…perhaps because my weights are so low. Either way, it has led me to add in a ton of assistance work to keep the program “pure” and not mess with the bones of the system, but that’s basically majoring in the minors.

Anyway, thanks a ton for your input. Hopefully can continue to focus on all of these points.

[quote]ns182 wrote:

This was CTs reply for me (fairly similar).
[/quote]

Wow, that IS pretty similar.

So, did you end up sticking with a 531? I ask since, like you noted in the thread, I had concerns that the low volume would yield results I was looking for. Since then, I’ve added in multiple Joker sets and FSLs after the main movement, plus BBB, PLUS a ton of assistance work. This nets me a good pump, but ends up with me spending ~80-90 mins in the gym.

I love my time in the gym, but it sounds like that may be counterproductive to my goals. Although if I could program a 6 day split, the shorter workouts would make more sense.

I love the feeling of the pump, or the wobblies after a good, long set, but that amount of volume also sounds counterproductive.

I do worry about the feasibility of loaded carries or highly compact workouts in January in a commercial gym… Ugh.

I dont think ive been doing it long enough to say for certain (had to wait until after a crossfit competition w my wife in oct) but i have put on a few solid pounds since then (doesnt sound like much but w no fat and my history, that is a lifetime high…). I havent decided between the easy hardgainer program and the simplicity and convenience of 531. Going to try a consistent stretch of cts program, adding a quick max pump layer and of course carries. I am sold on the carries. Make it happen.

[quote]ns182 wrote:

This was CTs reply for me (fairly similar).
[/quote]

There is some very good information in this thread.

– How old are you?
– I know you said you do 5/3/1 BBB… what was your template/split specifically?
– Have you had blood work/T-levels checked?
– How much conditioning do you do on top of this (if any)?

My situation is kind of similar, but I’m 5’10-11 started at a lean 155/160 with long limbs. My squat was embarrassing, and it still lags to this day.

With me personally, I made my best gains on a 3 day fullbody or a 4 day upper/lower split. Once I paid as much attention to my diet as my workouts, I made progress. I know that for me, FREQUENCY was the key. Low volume, but frequent workouts. I made zero progress on the 5 day split hitting each body-part 1 day a week.

I progressed a lot in the deadlift, but never saw much gains in size. The 3 exercises that really helped me put on weight were:

  1. weighted pull-ups (my favorite. both for back and arms. put 1" on my arms)
  2. Front Squat (finally saw improvements with the tape measure)
  3. Frequent overhead pressing (standing barbell, seated DB, Smith-Machine high incline)

Every week I would do 1 heavy session (like CT’s ramp style w/ clusters), and another higher day training at 60%-70% keeping short of failure.

I’m now 185. I’m not as lean, but at least my friends and co-workers now approach me for “workout advice”. To me, that’s when I finally occurred to me that I made progress, since I still am critical of myself.

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
There is some very good information in this thread.

– How old are you?
– I know you said you do 5/3/1 BBB… what was your template/split specifically?
– Have you had blood work/T-levels checked?
– How much conditioning do you do on top of this (if any)?
[/quote]

If this is directed at me:

  1. 28

  2. Split currently is 531 BBB with a large bit of Jokers and FSLs.
    M - Flat Bench, with Inc or Dec Bench BBB. Chest/Tri assistance from 1-arm DB bench, CGBP, Pec Deck/Flyes, and some weighted chins and DB rows for antagonist work
    T - Back Squat, wtih Front Squat BBB. Leg ext, leg curl, leg press, and calf assistance, with weighted hyperextensions and ab work.
    W - Off
    Th - Standing Mil press, with seated press BBB. Front, seated side, and incline side raises, rear delt work, shrugs, and some weighted chins.
    F - Deadlift, with SLDL BBB. Leg curl and ext, and lots of row assistance, plus posterior chain and ab work.
    Sa/Su - usually off, but sometimes will do an arms/forearms/calf circuit depending on feel.

  3. Not had any bloodwork done, as I’ve never had any real issues to warrant it and figured I was likely “normal” enough.

  4. When I first got back into the gym after a long break, I had some weight to drop. I tacked on some cycling after weights, and sprints on off days, but I have no trouble shedding weight, so that only lasted for ~6 weeks. As it is now, I do no cardio/conditioning, outside of playing sports on the weekends.

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
My situation is kind of similar, but I’m 5’10-11 started at a lean 155/160 with long limbs. My squat was embarrassing, and it still lags to this day. [/quote]

I’ve been told by many other long-limbed lifters that back squats are just not favorable for us, due to leverage issues. I don’t like to make excuses, but it seems that there is definitely a correlation. I’ve started doing more front squatting, and really feel that far more in the proper muscle groups, and with much better form.

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
With me personally, I made my best gains on a 3 day fullbody or a 4 day upper/lower split. Once I paid as much attention to my diet as my workouts, I made progress. I know that for me, FREQUENCY was the key. Low volume, but frequent workouts. I made zero progress on the 5 day split hitting each body-part 1 day a week.

I progressed a lot in the deadlift, but never saw much gains in size. The 3 exercises that really helped me put on weight were:

  1. weighted pull-ups (my favorite. both for back and arms. put 1" on my arms)
  2. Front Squat (finally saw improvements with the tape measure)
  3. Frequent overhead pressing (standing barbell, seated DB, Smith-Machine high incline)

Every week I would do 1 heavy session (like CT’s ramp style w/ clusters), and another higher day training at 60%-70% keeping short of failure.

I’m now 185. I’m not as lean, but at least my friends and co-workers now approach me for “workout advice”. To me, that’s when I finally occurred to me that I made progress, since I still am critical of myself.[/quote]

Yep, I love all 3 of those as well. And same thing with the deadlift; I can pull a decent amount of weight, but it doesn’t net me much of anything in size gains. Likely just a body-type thing.

After reading all of the replies, it sounds like a Push/Pull/Legs split works better for us than the more traditional “one part per week” targetting. I really was intrigued by the Dan John style of one lift per day, and could probably draw up something like:
M - Cleans
T - Bench
W - Squats
Th - Rows
F - OHP
Sat - Deadlift
Sun - OFF
And basically, use that template with the Layers/HDL type programming (with carries!) that has been tossed around and laid out by some other posters. This would be high frequency, but lower duration than I’m doing now, as well as focus on intensity and simplicity, rather than trying to hit 15 exercises per workout. I just worry that I’m not nearly as smart/experienced as the coaches that made the programs, and don’t want to assume I know better.

OK, deload week for me this week, planning to start applying all of the advice from this thread/forum next week. In the meantime, I wanted to see if what I had planned looked good/acceptable to the veterans.

Basic outline is a 6 day split (pull, push, legs, pull, push, legs, OFF). 15 mins of warmup/mobility, and ~40-50mins of actual work per day. 1 main lift, 1 assistance exercise, carries, and then a cooldown/small focus. Main lift is a ramp to 1RM, clusters @90%, then HDL and Layers work (vary based on week/how I feel). Areas I really want to focus on bringing up are my tri’s, quad/VMO, and upper chest, so I tried to build around that while paying attention to all other groups.

Pull 1: Cleans
warmup
Chins (weighted) - 3 sets 8-15
Clean (from hang or floor) - Working lift
Carries - Bear Hug - 5 sets of 1 min, 1 min rest
Forearm/grip work as cooldown (Fat Grip iso-holds)

Push 1: Tilt Bench
warmup
Dips (weighted) 3 sets 8-12
Inc/tilt bench - Working lift
Carries - Chest/squeeze KB - 5 sets 1 min, 1 min rest
Triceps work as cooldown (CGBP or rev pressdowns, etc).

Legs 1: Squat
warmup
Ham curls 3 sets 10-15 with holds or 1 1/4 reps
Front Squats - Working lift
Carries - Stairs - 5 sets 1 min, 1 min rest
Calf work as cooldown

Pull 2: High Pull
warmup
Pullups (weighted) 3 sets 8-15
High Pull (from floor or hang) - Working lift
Carries - Farmers Walk - 5 sets 1 min, 1 min rest
Forearms work (wrist curls)

Push 2: Press
warmup
Bench dips (weighted) 3 sets 8-12
Standing/Push press - Working lift
Carries - Overhead - 5 sets 1 min, 1 min rest
Side/rear lateral work

Legs 2: Deadlift
warmup
Leg extensions - 3 sets 10-15 with holds or 1 1/4 reps
TBDL - Working lift
Carries - Yoke - 5 sets 1 min, 1 min off.
Calf work as cooldown

Too much? Not enough? Bad ordering of exercises or days?

Thanks for any feedback.

For bench, Press and deadlift do the working lift first so as to maximise performance, also when doing hamstrings before squats drop the holds/intensity techniques and just do straight sets

Thanks Badger, will make those adjustments.

Should I also move the assistance for my Pull days to after the main lift?

ANY of CT’s (or anyone else’s for that matter) “size programs” would suffice as long as you put the work in. But I will say at your height/weight… you should be hitting a buffet or bbq joint immediately after every other session. At least after every lower body day. If you’re worried about dirty bulking but desperately need to ramp up your cals, do like all the old schoolers used to and eat your damn face off after every intense workout.