I was discussing with my coach today all the differences between the deadlift and the olympic power clean, when he began talking joint mobility.
In our gym, we have a bench press, so I asked if we ever used the bench press for remedial purposes, as far as balancing our back work with front work.
He pretty much said, (not quoted) "No, we never use the bench press. We used to have powerlifters in this gym before they transferred, and they left that bench press there.
"I don’t want you ever doing bench press whilst you are a weightlifter because the way powerlifters bench destroys the natural mobility you use when snatching.
"The way they draw their scapula together for stability creates a static pressure between the lats and the scapula bone, and after a while the scapula starts to calcify into the lats. Eventually powerlifters have bits of bone in their back where muscle once was which prevents them from a perfect overhead lockout at the bottom of a snatch.
"You are much better doing pushups, weighted pushups, if you like, because they allow the scapula to move in and out of its position. They are just as benificial for pec development anyways, you can do pushups with your hands in this position, [this] position… etc, with your feet up etc…
When I asked whether rowing in equal volume would reduce or negate the calcifying effect by moving the scapula through it’s natural movement, he responded:
"No amount of rowing will prevent the damage of the bench crushing the scapula into the muscle, it is like asking whether punching a wall every day, thus calcifying your knuckles, would be reversed by doing hand extensions.
What do you think about this? Does this mean no one can effectively be pro weightlifter and pro powerlifter in the same era?
There are a number of videos of Olympic (medalists) weightlifters benching. They may just be benching for the fun of it, but it doesn’t seem like it has affected them. Check Mikhail Koklyaev, Russian weightlifting champion, elite powerlifter, top strongman.
I’m always wary when someone says ‘You must NEVER do…’. There’s a time and place for just about everything.
“Never” is silly. The bench press is a great upper body strength and mass builder. It sounds like he is at one extreme of the spectrum, just like people who say you should never press over your head at the other. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.
I would guess that many weightlifters don’t spend as much benching because they spend their time working on technique (a neverending process) and strength exercises that can directly benefit their lifts (ie squats). Benching does neither, but doesn’t necessarily mean weightlifters should never bench.
The shoulder mobility argument makes sense, but this probably isn’t as much of an issue as people make it out to be for experienced weightlifters unless they’re benching heavy very frequently.
I can understand why OLers would want to avoid the bench - little direct carryover, and personally at least, I feel tighter in my pec/shoulder girdle after a bench sessions - but I dont buy the calcification thing. It just doesnt make sense to me.
As far as whether someone could be an accomplished powerlifter and OLer in the same era - shane hamman, mark henry, and I’m willing to bet many others. Someone mentioned koklyaev - he may not compete in OL anymore, but there are plenty of his training videos of him muscle snatching adn C&Jing; additionally, he needs to be able to lockout overhead for strongman, so i doubt his mobility has been hindered.
[quote]forevernade wrote:
"The way they draw their scapula together for stability creates a static pressure between the lats and the scapula bone, and after a while the scapula starts to calcify into the lats. Eventually powerlifters have bits of bone in their back where muscle once was which prevents them from a perfect overhead lockout at the bottom of a snatch.
Forevernade[/quote]
Your “coach” needs to have his ass kicked for saying that.
[quote]drdgmuro wrote:
forevernade wrote:
"The way they draw their scapula together for stability creates a static pressure between the lats and the scapula bone, and after a while the scapula starts to calcify into the lats. Eventually powerlifters have bits of bone in their back where muscle once was which prevents them from a perfect overhead lockout at the bottom of a snatch.
Forevernade
Your “coach” needs to have his ass kicked for saying that.
There is some points that need to be said. IF you are doing mobility work, bench, and snatch there should be little problem.
Problems only arise when folks have a tendency towards inflexibility.
There are power lifters at our gym who will probably never be able to overhead squat, because of the years of benching have near permanently internally rotated their humeri.
But, there are some power lifters who are hell of a lot more mobile than I am. One guy is brutally strong (pulling over 700+ at 230ish without any gear) with squat depth so low it is quite literally ATG.
This is hilarious. I’ve been benching for the past 5 years, had a complete shoulder reconstruction prior to that and one side of my body sits at a different angle as a result.
i’m a 110kg fat powerlifter and I can STILL do a clean grip sots press without any trouble.
This is the type of stuff you get when a coach doesn’t have enough conviction in his knowledge. He resorts to making stuff up. What is so bad about telling his lifter that there are other exercises that will give him more bang for the buck for the given sport?
[quote]drdgmuro wrote:
Invictica wrote:
wait…so are you saying
if I bench enough, I will have LAT BONES?!?!?!!?
why am i NOT benching?!?!
This is the type of stuff you get when a coach doesn’t have enough conviction in his knowledge. He resorts to making stuff up. What is so bad about telling his lifter that there are other exercises that will give him more bang for the buck for the given sport?
…shit…[/quote]
You can get ossification in the muscle, but it is usually a genetic malformity or from trauma, and you would eventually know about it, because it would become pronounced and painful. I think this is a result of a little bit of info being a dangerous thing, and someone trying to relate two subjects of which they have no idea. Keep benching, and if your mobility becomes too restricted, its not the benching, its the rest of your programming thats the problem!
Honestly, if you are a seriously Olympic lifter, why would you bench and risk putting extra muscle on in your pecs. It is a weight class sport, and thus you want to maximize the muscles that help, not put on meaningless muscle. That is why most Olympic lifters don’t bench. Pectoral strength has little, if anything to do with the Snatch or Clean and Jerk.
At our national throwers conference we were given a presentation by an exercise physiologist on the shoulder (employed by our institute of sport).
We all have a specific range of motion built into our shoulders but can change the angles we apply it.
A Javelin thrower will be able to apply further force when their shoulder is stretched back at the start of the pull but loses their range of motion when the arm rotates at the other end of the range.
One would think that the areas where force is required in benching and snatching are quite different. If you wished to excel at one you are not going to excel at either. And no-one ever has, at the same time. Closest would be Cole, who was an animal and a thrower who trained over a wide medium of work.
I remember George Frenn always saying he did not bench too much (500+ plus with only small elbow wraps and two sec pause at 110kgs) because it tightened his shoulders for hammer.
Hammer throwers have extraordinary shoulder strength but never bench and seldom press.
Benching didn’t used to be a no-no in weightlifting back in the days when the Olympic Press was still a part of the sport (I think 1972 was the last year the OL Press was part of weightlifting). It, and the incline press, were seen as important accessory exercises.
It’s an interesting comment. On one hand, I would defer to somebody knowledgable about training O-lifts in determining how or whether benching should fit in the program. That said, there’s a reason the benchpress is such a ubiquitous exercise. That’s because it is probably the most effective exercise for laying on lots of upper body strength and mass.
Does this translate into results for O-lifts? I don’t know. However, all things being equal, who will have an easier time catching and holding a big weight overhead: a guy with thick, strong arms and shoulders or Mr Eddy Spaghetti-arms?
I think this ties back into an issue that we discuss in some form or another frequently on T-Nation. How does power-training fit into a competitive weightlifter’s training? Surely, specific skills and speed trained in the full classical lifts and partials (hang-cleans, jerks, etc.) are the most important part of the training. But what about the base musculature that comes from powerlifts-especially for the many less-than-gifted lifters that simply need more strength to move to the next level?
I dont think there’s any doubt that strong pressing strength is great for OL, just not bench press/horizontal press strength.
the sport is pretty specific and if you have time to do enough bench pressing to hurt your overhead lockout mobility then you need to reevaluate your program. How much BP can an OL fit into a competitive OL program? Not too much i imagine.
Even then you wouldn’t be going for ME effort ah la PLers on bench anyhow. You would be saving your CNS for ME and SME work on the classics.
