The only reason I’m so persistent about defending Rippetoe’s routine is that I wasted so much time with a bodypart split routine when I started training and didn’t know any better, so in hopes of actually helping some guy around not to do the same mistake as I did, I try to talk beginners for doing something like that. 
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
IronWarrior24 wrote:
I just feel that there are better ways for a beginner to gain muscle that don’t include squatting 3 times a week.
And yet, I haven’t seen you take a break from internet-arguing to actually provide some genuinely helpful advice.[/quote]
Although to you or others on this forum it may not have seemed like good advice, but I did post advice. My advice was not to do that program.
[quote]If you think you’ve got a better suggestion, by all means post it. Otherwise you’re just another armchair trainer who’s never helped a beginner get results, criticizing the folks actually trying to help the guy.
IronWarrior, what, exactly, would a good beginner’s program look like?[/quote]
A good beginner’s program would contain a variety of compound lifts. I believe everyone posting would agree with this. I myself believe that beginners need to do quite a bit of compounding lifting because of before mentioned reasons. However, there are two points on which I’m sure many of you will or already have disagreed. The first one is that the amount of squatting called for in this program is just too much in my opinion.
Don’t get me wrong, I love to squat and would recommend it to any beginner. But, in my opinion it should not be performed more than twice a week due to not only the stress on the muscles but also on the nervous system. Another reason that I don’t think it should be performed more than twice a week is that it often causes DOMS for many days afterward.
Not only will this affect the intensity that the trainee can lift with in the weight room, but is often one of the biggest reasons causing burnout and leading to someone giving up on lifting forever. A second point that I’m sure a lot of you will disagree with is don’t take out all isolation exercises. I believe that isolation exercises have a lot of benefits even in a beginner’s program. Now, I am fully aware that isolation movements may not spur the kind of widespread growth that good compound movements will.
However, they will induce growth, even in beginners. Doing them will also help down the road when the trainee needs to throw them in to grow as the trainee will be used to the movement and know how to perform it correctly. So you ask, what would a good beginners’ program look like? In my opinion it would be a program with a variety of compound movements, but not overloaded with any particular one, also containing different forms of isolation exercises.
Now, I feel that the program could be a full body program or an upper-lower split, but as long as the program contains the aforementioned exercises, I don’t see the harm in splitting up the bodyparts. But, the limit to this is that I don’t feel that the program should exceed 3 days of lifting per week. So, if the trainee could fit a split routine into these 3 days and still have a variety of compound movements along with a few isolation movements, I would have to say that it would be a pretty good beginner’s program.
I don’t feel that it is much better. The things that I see really wrong with the OP’s program is that he’s doing 4 days of lifting per week and that he has too many exercises for his arms. He could also do without the cable-crossovers for back and maybe add in another squat session sometime throughout the week. Also, the reps for many of the movements need to be adjusted. But, other than that the exercises he chose for the program aren’t that bad. At least he has all three of the big lifts in there which is more than I can say for a lot of beginners.
He also has good mornings and military press which are also good movements to do. In my opinion, the cons that go along with Rippetoe’s plan(one of which being too many squat sessions for the trainee’s benefit) outweigh the pros of the program.
Here would be a decent beginner’s program adapted from the exercises the OP had in his program.
Day 1-Monday
Bench Press 5x5
Cable-Crossovers 3x10
Squat 5x5
Leg Press 3x10
Day 2-Wednesday
Deadlifts 5x5
Lat Pulldowns 3x10
Close Grip Bench 4x8
Dips 3x10
Day 3-Friday
Squat 5x5
Good Mornings 4x8
Military Press 4x8
Bicep Standing Curls 3x10
Heh, Ironwarrior, that’s close to what Rippetoe (among others) recommends after a beginner has taken all the juice from that Starting Strength routine (something like 3+ months) when he stops making progress workout by workout and demand for something like that arises.
edit: more spesifically about that weekly pattern I mentioned for monday: heavy, wednesday: light, friday: medium
[quote]jonnosferatu wrote:
The fact that you don’t know what defines a beginner does not qualify you to be able to say that a routine is bad. Rippetoe and Kilgore are among the most respected exercise specialists in the world for a reason - their routines work.
If you have just started lifting, it is virtually impossible for you to be working heavy enough weights that you will reach excessive levels of overload and exceed capacity for adaptation, even training three days a week in the same relatively heavy lift.[/quote]
Main Entry: vir·tu·al·ly
Pronunciation: \�?v�?r-ch�?-w�?-l�?, -ch�?-l�?; �?v�?rch-w�?-l�?\
Function: adverb
Date: 15th century
1 : almost entirely : nearly
So it’s “virtually” impossible for a beginner to overtrain. By posting the word virtually in front of impossible in the sentence, “If you have just started lifting, it is virtually impossible for you to be working heavy enough weights that you will reach excessive levels of overload and exceed capacity for adaptation”, you seem to agree that although small, the possibility is there for a beginner to overtrain.
That is, assuming that you know the definition of virtually, which, I presume, you do. So, being as how squats are one of the most intense lifts a trainee can perform and are “virtually” the most exhausting lift for the central nervous system and from your post we now know that even though rare, a beginner can overtrain, I don’t see a better way for it to happen than perfoming the squat with maximum intensity 3 times a week.
[quote]Obviously some level of periodization will become apparent in the 3-6 months that this routine will find use, but that periodization will probably appear only at the beginning and at the very end; the beginning as a result of starting the use of the new movements, and the end as a result of the weights you can use reaching a level sufficient to outdo recovery capacity. There is a very good reason that we experience ‘newbie gains’.
The stress caused by the newbie lifter in your example will not the same as with the experienced lifter, because the experienced lifter’s body has a much slower rate of adaptation to the higher weights, as a result of being closer to maximum potential. The beginner, by definition, is still far enough from such a point in his adaptation phase that he or she can feasibly move heavy weights in the same fashion three times a week and not hit overtraining. When the trainee cannot do so, he or she is, by definition, no longer a beginner, and now requires some level of pre-planned workload periodization, generally on the order of variance over the course of a single week, and eventually over longer periods of time, as would be the case with the more experienced lifter cited in your example.[/quote]
Just remember though, muscles are not the only things stressed during lifting. There is also a huge amount of working out that is psychological. Some instances of this being; pushing yourself on sets, being motivated enough to get to the weight room in the first place etc. So, even if it is true that a beginner can more easily adapt to the physical aspect of lifting, this is not true of the psychological aspect.
An experienced trainee will be more accustomed to the mental strain caused by lifting, which, in many cases is harder to handle than the physical strain. So, even if beginners do suffer less stress from the physical aspect of lifting, the larger amount of mental strain they suffer more than makes up the difference.
Actually, it is relevant. In one of your former posts you said, “Most of us start out with good full-body programs”, after I stated that most beginners don’t start out with good programs, in response to a post by HKDOOM that asked, “Have you actually ever trained with this kind of routine?”. I was merely arguing an opinion of mine that you challenged, the same way you are arguing your points right now.
Actually you are contradicting yourself by posting this. I used the comment about the mirror muscles to support my argument that most beginners start out with bad programs. I said, “‘Beach muscles’ are in fact what most beginners’ programs target”, in response to your statement, "Most of us start out with good full-body programs despite what could be taken as an excessive emphasis on one exercise to the detriment of another, though this can easily be compensated later - or extremely bad ones design purely to promote growth in the ‘mirror muscles’.
So by saying that I restated something that you said when I posted “‘Beach muscles’ are in fact what most beginners’ programs target”, you are saying that you agree with me that most beginners’ programs only target beach muscles. And if it is true that most beginners’ programs only target beach muscles, than it cannot be true that, “Most of us start out with good full-body programs,” as you yourself stated in an earlier post.
[quote]HKDOOM wrote:
The only reason I’m so persistent about defending Rippetoe’s routine is that I wasted so much time with a bodypart split routine when I started training and didn’t know any better, so in hopes of actually helping some guy around not to do the same mistake as I did, I try to talk beginners for doing something like that. :)[/quote]
I completely understand where you are coming from with your argument and I know that you are trying to help him. But, don’t think that I’m not trying to help. My initial reason for posting on this thread was to help him by keeping him from performing what I considered to be a bad program.
My reason was basically the same as yours as I started out with a program that called for overdoing certain lifts as I feel this one does. I too feel that I wasted time by performing one that called for too much of certain lifts.
I think you may have shot yourself in the foot with the routine you suggested. You’re suggesting exactly some of the things you’ve been ranting against, specifically, using a “big” exercise many time throughout the week. Only, you actually end up doing more volume with the lifts.
Instead of 3x5 squats and 1x5 deads three times a week (60 reps of weekly volume), you’re recommending 5x5 squats twice a week plus 5x5 deadlifts plus 3x10 leg press…that’s 100 reps of weekly volume for similar movement patterns. (You could add another 32 reps to that total if you want to factor in the additional lower back work from the good mornings).
So, I don’t want to sound like a dick, but your primary arguing point… [quote]IronWarrior24 wrote: Yes, my dislike for the program is on the basis that it calls for lifters to squat 3 times a week.[/quote]… is kinda shot down. You’re having him squat twice a week but with more volume and perform much more work with similar exercises.
[quote]IronWarrior24 wrote:
Here would be a decent beginner’s program adapted from the exercises the OP had in his program.
Day 1-Monday
Bench Press 5x5
Cable-Crossovers 3x10
Squat 5x5
Leg Press 3x10[/quote]
There’s just about zero reason to have a beginner doing cable crossovers. I’d rather see a rowing movement here, since there’s none during the week. Dumbbell row, seated row, barbell row… any one of those.
Also, instead of squats, I’d use a single-leg movement. Step-ups or lunges would be great. A unilateral exercise would help to develop stability while pointing out and helping to address any major bilateral differences.
[quote]Day 2-Wednesday
Deadlifts 5x5
Lat Pulldowns 3x10
Close Grip Bench 4x8
Dips 3x10[/quote]
This isn’t too bad a day, as a whole. I’d throw the dips to right after the deadlifts instead, but that’s almost just being nitpicky.
I’d also switch the close-grip bench with Friday’s military press. That way all the “arm work” is on the same day, end of the week. No need giving it that much attention. Also, that’ll help prevent training “triceps” the day before before “shoulders.”
[quote]Day 3-Friday
Squat 5x5
Good Mornings 4x8
Military Press 4x8
Bicep Standing Curls 3x10
[/quote]
As I said, I’d swap the military press and Wednesday’s close grip bench. The good mornings aren’t really necessary. I’d either drop it entirely or swap it out for a bigger “core” exercise like a full contact twist or a finisher like dumbbell swings and do it as the last exercise of the day.
Also, as a whole, I’m not crazy about the set/rep scheme. 3x10 pops up too much for my tastes. 4-6x4-8 is usually fine for the bigger movements (like dips, pulldowns, and leg press), but the smaller stuff (arm stuff) will be fine with 1-2x6-12
One last thing, I think it was slightly overlooked that the OP is 16 years old. With that in mind, I generally start younger beginners with a super-basic calisthenic program for the first week or two, as a semi-assessment/semi-intro to exercise.
Just an “easy” few sets of their age in reps; nothing too crazy at all. It’s a transition from zero workout experience into weight training.
Monday, Wednesday, Friday
Push-up 2x16
Squat 2x16
Pull-up (assisted) 1x16
Lunge 2x16
Plank 2x15 seconds
Burpee with jump 2x16
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
I think you may have shot yourself in the foot with the routine you suggested. You’re suggesting exactly some of the things you’ve been ranting against, specifically, using a “big” exercise many time throughout the week. Only, you actually end up doing more volume with the lifts.
Instead of 3x5 squats and 1x5 deads three times a week (60 reps of weekly volume), you’re recommending 5x5 squats twice a week plus 5x5 deadlifts plus 3x10 leg press…that’s 100 reps of weekly volume for similar movement patterns. (You could add another 32 reps to that total if you want to factor in the additional lower back work from the good mornings).
So, I don’t want to sound like a dick, but your primary arguing point… IronWarrior24 wrote: Yes, my dislike for the program is on the basis that it calls for lifters to squat 3 times a week… is kinda shot down. You’re having him squat twice a week but with more volume and perform much more work with similar exercises.[/quote]
You don’t sound like a dick, you are just arguing your point. Doing so should not, and does not, make you sound like a dick, to me anyway.
You said that I shot myself in the foot by posting the sample beginner’s routine. I don’t feel that I did. While there is still quite a bit of compound lifting in my program and there are more total reps for the week, I still don’t feel that it would be as bad as the program that I have been arguing against. One reason that I feel this way is that while he does do more total volume in one week on the squat, for example, he would not be using as much weight on these exercises as he would if he were doing the prescribed 3x5 set and rep scheme.
So by doing a few more reps on the squat than in the starting strength program, but while using significantly less weight, I don’t feel that it would be near as bad for him. Also, you mentioned that the deadlift and leg press would add stress along with what the squat already causes. Keep in mind though, he would not be doing the deadlifts on the same day as the squats nor would he be doing as much weight as he would be doing in the starting strength program.
So, instead of doing 45 total reps for squats(15 each day) he would be doing 50 total reps for squats(25 each day), only with significantly less weight than the starting strength program calls for. Now, there is no way that the sample workout that I posted would cause as much strain to a beginning lifter as the Starting Strength program would cause in that regard. Also, he would have 3 days in between squat days(2 free from lifting, 1 with no squats).
Now for your statement in which you mentioned that the deadlifts and leg press were similar movements to the squat. In the sample program that I posted I called for 1 day of deadlifting with a set and rep scheme of 5x5 on a day with no squats. Keep in mind that the starting strength program called for 2 days of deadlifting with a set and rep scheme of 1x5, not to mention that it is to be performed on the same days as you are required to squat.
So, in the sample program that I posted instead of doing 10 total reps for deadlifts(5 each day), he would be doing 25 total reps for deadlifts(25 reps in one day) with a lot less weight than he would be using for deadlifts in the starting strength program. Also, keep in mind that he would not be performing deadlifts on the same day as squats, he would have one day free from lifting between a squat and deadlift session. Now, that may still seem like a lot for deadlifts, but remember that by not performing squats and deadlifts in the same workout, neurological and psychological stress would be decreased significantly.
You also mentioned that leg presses are similar movements to squats and deadlifts. While they do work the legs, just like squats do, they cause no where near the neurological stress that squats or deadlifts cause. You also stated that the good mornings could be added to the list of lower back stress causing movements in my sample workout. I could probably agree with you there, they probably could and should be taken out of the workout. However, I don’t feel that their addition to one day of my sample plan would be more stressful than performing 3 consecutive workout days of squats with only 1 day of rest in between along with deadlifts on two of those days as called for in the Starting Strength Routine.
[quote]IronWarrior24 wrote:
Here would be a decent beginner’s program adapted from the exercises the OP had in his program.
Day 1-Monday
Bench Press 5x5
Cable-Crossovers 3x10
Squat 5x5
Leg Press 3x10
There’s just about zero reason to have a beginner doing cable crossovers. I’d rather see a rowing movement here, since there’s none during the week. Dumbbell row, seated row, barbell row… any one of those.[/quote]
How is there zero reason? I know that they will not cause the kind of widespread growth that many compound movements cause, but they will cause some strength and mass gains along with getting the trainee used to a movement that he will most likely use frequently down the road.
You are right about the rowing movement though. There does need to be some kind of rowing movement somewhere in the workout. That’s my mistake as it completely slipped my mind.
So, you’d limit squats to only one day. How could you argue for a program that calls for 3 days of squatting when you yourself just stated that you would reduce the number of squat sessions to just one?
[quote]Day 2-Wednesday
Deadlifts 5x5
Lat Pulldowns 3x10
Close Grip Bench 4x8
Dips 3x10
This isn’t too bad a day, as a whole. I’d throw the dips to right after the deadlifts instead, but that’s almost just being nitpicky.
I’d also switch the close-grip bench with Friday’s military press. That way all the “arm work” is on the same day, end of the week. No need giving it that much attention. Also, that’ll help prevent training “triceps” the day before before “shoulders.”
[/quote]
That could be a good idea, but even then you would still have dips on Wednesday which work the triceps a lot. So all the arm work would not be on the last day. But in that sense, I’m just being nitpicky. It would be better to have arms on the last day though to prevent soreness in the triceps from limiting the intensity with which the trainee could work the shoulders.
[quote]Day 3-Friday
Squat 5x5
Good Mornings 4x8
Military Press 4x8
Bicep Standing Curls 3x10
As I said, I’d swap the military press and Wednesday’s close grip bench. The good mornings aren’t really necessary. I’d either drop it entirely or swap it out for a bigger “core” exercise like a full contact twist or a finisher like dumbbell swings and do it as the last exercise of the day.
Also, as a whole, I’m not crazy about the set/rep scheme. 3x10 pops up too much for my tastes. 4-6x4-8 is usually fine for the bigger movements (like dips, pulldowns, and leg press), but the smaller stuff (arm stuff) will be fine with 1-2x6-12
One last thing, I think it was slightly overlooked that the OP is 16 years old. With that in mind, I generally start younger beginners with a super-basic calisthenic program for the first week or two, as a semi-assessment/semi-intro to exercise.
Just an “easy” few sets of their age in reps; nothing too crazy at all. It’s a transition from zero workout experience into weight training.
Monday, Wednesday, Friday
Push-up 2x16
Squat 2x16
Pull-up (assisted) 1x16
Lunge 2x16
Plank 2x15 seconds
Burpee with jump 2x16
[/quote]
As for the rest of your post critiquing the rest of the sample workout, I never said it was perfect. As for the set and rep schemes, the purpose of doing the 3x10 schemes was to build muscle, but also because 3 sets of 10 is a good starting scheme for beginners. It is rare(if ever) that you will find a program completely free of flaws, as I’m sure mine has some too. However, there is no way that the sample program that I posted will cause as much stress, whether it be muscular, neurological or psychological, as the Starting Strength program. This is what makes it a better program for beginners in my opinion.