hehe indeed, im unsure whether its serious or not, given the OP.
[quote]chutec wrote:
hehe indeed, im unsure whether its serious or not, given the OP.[/quote]
He’s probably kidding. And you’ll get calf work from cleans, step-ups, and squats.
[quote]chutec wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
Do you honestly beleive that less than 50 reps per muscle group in the entire workout is a good hypertropthy program? What kind of bench press should he be doing? Elbows out bodybuilding style or elbows in powerlifting style? What about shoulder work? You think one set of dips and one set of curls is going to build his arms up? What about his traps and calfs?
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instead of pointing out flaws, offer solutions
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read what I asked for in my post, and then see if scott delivered. (the clue is in my request for the basics, dont give a crap about what my elbow bench style should be, these are details that I can work in later)
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the idea was to add in the simpler elements of bodybuilding to a predominantly strength based program, in order to see a little more size gain.[/quote]
I was going to give him a chance to think about his program a bit, but the workout he gave you has much too low a volume to be a good hypertrophy program and is missing some areas. It is a good idea to build on your current 5x5 program, but you need to add some volume. A good plan is strive for somewhere around 100 reps per bodypart per workout. In order to do that you need to add in some lower weight higher rep exercises. For example chest.
If you are doing 5x5 on bench, assuming all 5 sets are reasonable working sets and not super ligth warm up sets, the you’ve got 25 reps there. If you did 3 sets of 12 on Incline dumbell press and 3 sets of 12 on cable cross overs, that brings you up to 97 total and you’ve hit your chest at 3 angles. You can use this same principle for every bodypart.
Some key points:
- Shoot for around 100 reps per bodypart per workout.
- Do your heavy exercises first and each each exercise after should be lighter and more isolated than the last.
- Avoid redundant movements. Example don’t do flat bench and dumbell flat bench in the same workout.
- Don’t neglect any bodypart.
Chutec, here is a good article that you might want to read. It is similar to what I suggested, but uses a lot of supersets, so expect to be exhausted if you try this one.
http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=257ovt2
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
chutec wrote:
hehe indeed, im unsure whether its serious or not, given the OP.
He’s probably kidding. And you’ll get calf work from cleans, step-ups, and squats. [/quote]
I was half-way kidding but I still think you are still too inexperienced to have all the training philosophies you have. I know you like to give advice but you haven’t perfected your own program yet.
I did starting strength and then went to the “Shut Up” Program:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1460447
I’m considering going back to SS or Bill Starr’s 5x5 to get my strength up a bit higher though. A good combo is what FightingScott recommended.
jstreet0204 - the volume is spread out throughout the week, not just on a specific day
[quote]bulldogtor wrote:
I did starting strength and then went to the “Shut Up” Program:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1460447
I’m considering going back to SS or Bill Starr’s 5x5 to get my strength up a bit higher though. A good combo is what FightingScott recommended.
jstreet0204 - the volume is spread out throughout the week, not just on a specific day
[/quote]
DC Training doesn’t have 100 reps per bodypart in a single session. In fact, it’s barely got over 100 reps per session.
Say what you will about my amount of experience: it’s a valid argument. I haven’t figured out everything yet and I’ve made the mistake of over-complicating things more than once.
But DC Training, a hypertrophy training program for experienced bodybuilders, doesn’t have 100 reps per bodypart in each session. I’ve never head the 100 rep guideline before. It sounds pretty legit to me. It’s probably a good idea to follow that 90% of the time. But it shouldn’t be a hard and fast rule. I don’t get the impression you’re saying it’s a hard and fast rule. I’m just backing up my own suggestion by saying the suggestion of using 100 reps per bodypart in one session isn’t a law.
And would you really do 100 reps for your rear delts anyway?
You’d be in the gym forever.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
bulldogtor wrote:
I did starting strength and then went to the “Shut Up” Program:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1460447
I’m considering going back to SS or Bill Starr’s 5x5 to get my strength up a bit higher though. A good combo is what FightingScott recommended.
jstreet0204 - the volume is spread out throughout the week, not just on a specific day
DC Training doesn’t have 100 reps per bodypart in a single session. In fact, it’s barely got over 100 reps per session.
Say what you will about my amount of experience: it’s a valid argument. I haven’t figured out everything yet and I’ve made the mistake of over-complicating things more than once.
But DC Training, a hypertrophy training program for experienced bodybuilders, doesn’t have 100 reps per bodypart in each session. I’ve never head the 100 rep guideline before. It sounds pretty legit to me. It’s probably a good idea to follow that 90% of the time. But it shouldn’t be a hard and fast rule. I don’t get the impression you’re saying it’s a hard and fast rule. I’m just backing up my own suggestion by saying the suggestion of using 100 reps per bodypart in one session isn’t a law.
And would you really do 100 reps for your rear delts anyway?
You’d be in the gym forever.
[/quote]
I have no problem with DC training and I beleive the principles are sound, but I don’t think it is good for novice lifters. If you are going to reccomend DC Style training then your are still leaving out a lot of information in the program you listed. No it doesn’t use a high volume of reps per body part, but you have to remember that DC focuses on controled negatives so the time under tension increases by 2 or 3 times what a normal 1-0-1 tempo would be.
That would mean if you did the rest pause set the equaled up to 15 reps total with slow negatives, then the time under tension could easily be equal to 45 regular reps. See what I’m getting at. Also the reason I wouldn’t reccomend DC to novice lifters is that it depends on going to failure. Most people will not go to their true failure point. They will go to mental failure which is not the same. Point being I beleive DC training works, but there are a lot of things that make it work beyond the rep/set schema.
And no the 100 rep range is not a hard fast rule, just a basic guidline. You ought to know by know I don’t like to see thing over complicated. The 100 rep guidline is a simple way to make sure you are getting a good amount of volume. That is per bodypart, not muscle so I would not do 100 reps for my rear delts. I would do 100 reps for my shoulders. Again this is just a simple guidline sometimes it may come up to 85 or sometimes it might be 115.
[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
bulldogtor wrote:
I did starting strength and then went to the “Shut Up” Program:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1460447
I’m considering going back to SS or Bill Starr’s 5x5 to get my strength up a bit higher though. A good combo is what FightingScott recommended.
jstreet0204 - the volume is spread out throughout the week, not just on a specific day
DC Training doesn’t have 100 reps per bodypart in a single session. In fact, it’s barely got over 100 reps per session.
Say what you will about my amount of experience: it’s a valid argument. I haven’t figured out everything yet and I’ve made the mistake of over-complicating things more than once.
But DC Training, a hypertrophy training program for experienced bodybuilders, doesn’t have 100 reps per bodypart in each session. I’ve never head the 100 rep guideline before. It sounds pretty legit to me. It’s probably a good idea to follow that 90% of the time. But it shouldn’t be a hard and fast rule. I don’t get the impression you’re saying it’s a hard and fast rule. I’m just backing up my own suggestion by saying the suggestion of using 100 reps per bodypart in one session isn’t a law.
And would you really do 100 reps for your rear delts anyway?
You’d be in the gym forever.
I have no problem with DC training and I beleive the principles are sound, but I don’t think it is good for novice lifters. If you are going to reccomend DC Style training then your are still leaving out a lot of information in the program you listed. No it doesn’t use a high volume of reps per body part, but you have to remember that DC focuses on controled negatives so the time under tension increases by 2 or 3 times what a normal 1-0-1 tempo would be.
That would mean if you did the rest pause set the equaled up to 15 reps total with slow negatives, then the time under tension could easily be equal to 45 regular reps. See what I’m getting at. Also the reason I wouldn’t reccomend DC to novice lifters is that it depends on going to failure. Most people will not go to their true failure point. They will go to mental failure which is not the same. Point being I beleive DC training works, but there are a lot of things that make it work beyond the rep/set schema.
And no the 100 rep range is not a hard fast rule, just a basic guidline. You ought to know by know I don’t like to see thing over complicated. The 100 rep guidline is a simple way to make sure you are getting a good amount of volume. That is per bodypart, not muscle so I would not do 100 reps for my rear delts. I would do 100 reps for my shoulders. Again this is just a simple guidline sometimes it may come up to 85 or sometimes it might be 115.
[/quote]
I wasn’t reccomending DC Training. I was just using it as an example of a good program that didn’t obey the 100 rep guideline.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
bulldogtor wrote:
I did starting strength and then went to the “Shut Up” Program:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1460447
I’m considering going back to SS or Bill Starr’s 5x5 to get my strength up a bit higher though. A good combo is what FightingScott recommended.
jstreet0204 - the volume is spread out throughout the week, not just on a specific day
DC Training doesn’t have 100 reps per bodypart in a single session. In fact, it’s barely got over 100 reps per session.
Say what you will about my amount of experience: it’s a valid argument. I haven’t figured out everything yet and I’ve made the mistake of over-complicating things more than once.
But DC Training, a hypertrophy training program for experienced bodybuilders, doesn’t have 100 reps per bodypart in each session. I’ve never head the 100 rep guideline before. It sounds pretty legit to me. It’s probably a good idea to follow that 90% of the time. But it shouldn’t be a hard and fast rule. I don’t get the impression you’re saying it’s a hard and fast rule. I’m just backing up my own suggestion by saying the suggestion of using 100 reps per bodypart in one session isn’t a law.
And would you really do 100 reps for your rear delts anyway?
You’d be in the gym forever.
I have no problem with DC training and I beleive the principles are sound, but I don’t think it is good for novice lifters. If you are going to reccomend DC Style training then your are still leaving out a lot of information in the program you listed. No it doesn’t use a high volume of reps per body part, but you have to remember that DC focuses on controled negatives so the time under tension increases by 2 or 3 times what a normal 1-0-1 tempo would be.
That would mean if you did the rest pause set the equaled up to 15 reps total with slow negatives, then the time under tension could easily be equal to 45 regular reps. See what I’m getting at. Also the reason I wouldn’t reccomend DC to novice lifters is that it depends on going to failure. Most people will not go to their true failure point. They will go to mental failure which is not the same. Point being I beleive DC training works, but there are a lot of things that make it work beyond the rep/set schema.
And no the 100 rep range is not a hard fast rule, just a basic guidline. You ought to know by know I don’t like to see thing over complicated. The 100 rep guidline is a simple way to make sure you are getting a good amount of volume. That is per bodypart, not muscle so I would not do 100 reps for my rear delts. I would do 100 reps for my shoulders. Again this is just a simple guidline sometimes it may come up to 85 or sometimes it might be 115.
I wasn’t reccomending DC Training. I was just using it as an example of a good program that didn’t obey the 100 rep guideline. [/quote]
And what I was saying is that one of the reasons DC works for hypertrophy is the increased time under tension which can be accomplished by either higher volume or slower tempo. The program you suggested offered neither. See what I’m saying?
[quote]bulldogtor wrote:
I did starting strength and then went to the “Shut Up” Program:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1460447
I’m considering going back to SS or Bill Starr’s 5x5 to get my strength up a bit higher though. A good combo is what FightingScott recommended.
jstreet0204 - the volume is spread out throughout the week, not just on a specific day
[/quote]
Not sure what you are talking about the volume being spread out, but if you look at the Shut-Up workout you posted, just glancing at what the reccomend for a 3-day split and the rep/set schema for the size training, if you do the math it will easily come out to around 100 reps for chest. I didn’t go through the rest of them, but I’d guess they are pretty close.
NSCA recommends 12-20 sets per week per body part for hypertrophy purposes with 8-12 reps/set.
Granted, they’re not the BB mecca or anything, but the principles seem to match up well with typical BB style workouts.
I’m with JStreet on this one.
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
NSCA recommends 12-20 sets per week per body part for hypertrophy purposes with 8-12 reps/set.
Granted, they’re not the BB mecca or anything, but the principles seem to match up well with typical BB style workouts.
I’m with JStreet on this one.[/quote]
Yeah most of the hypertrophy workouts will fall somewhere in that range. There are a lot of different ways to do it.
10x10 on one exercise
2x15 on three exercises
4x12 on two exercises
I intentionally did no lay out specific exercises because I think people need to learn to individualize their own workouts.
Wow nice chat about this, was very informative.
ill read those links soon, just dont have much time on the net atm.
To be fair to scott he did give me what i asked for, which was a slight hypertrophy style tilt to a strength program.
From what i just read it seems that there is a general agreement that this is fine but not optimal and that the standard follows the 100 rep rule roughly.
I am currently feeling pretty exhausted with my current workout, and when i hit 25 kg more than i do right now ill be completely wankered.
when I get to the stage when I cant finish a 5x5 work weight set, how much would you recommend I scale this load down by in order to leave some gas in the tank for the further 75 reps.
if i like the strength element and the progressions there, would I significantly slow down hypertrophy by only doing say 60-70 reps / BP / workout?
bear in mind that I would be working my first 5 sets on a major lift with near my maximum load.
thanks alot for all the feedback guys!
[quote]chutec wrote:
Wow nice chat about this, was very informative.
ill read those links soon, just dont have much time on the net atm.
To be fair to scott he did give me what i asked for, which was a slight hypertrophy style tilt to a strength program.
From what i just read it seems that there is a general agreement that this is fine but not optimal and that the standard follows the 100 rep rule roughly.
I am currently feeling pretty exhausted with my current workout, and when i hit 25 kg more than i do right now ill be completely wankered.
when I get to the stage when I cant finish a 5x5 work weight set, how much would you recommend I scale this load down by in order to leave some gas in the tank for the further 75 reps.
if i like the strength element and the progressions there, would I significantly slow down hypertrophy by only doing say 60-70 reps / BP / workout?
bear in mind that I would be working my first 5 sets on a major lift with near my maximum load.
thanks alot for all the feedback guys![/quote]
Can you give me an idea of how you are following the 5x5 there are different schools of thought on it, but the way some people do it, I would not count all 5 sets as working sets. If they are all pretty heavy then I’d count them. I wouldn’t cut back any on the 5x5 sets either way.
Go balls to the wall and keep trying to build your strength, but keep the weight low enough on the remaining hyptertrophy exercises. In other words, let your heavy set dictate your lighter sets, not the other way around.
im doing 3 progressive warm up sets of 5 then 5 x5 at my work weight, which has always been 2.5 kg more than the previous session so far.
so even if i do a relatively measely weight on the hypertrophy sets it will add significantly?
and just out of interest, what is the rational behind the approach? more growth hormone? more blood pumping to the area? etc
thanks
[quote]chutec wrote:
im doing 3 progressive warm up sets of 5 then 5 x5 at my work weight, which has always been 2.5 kg more than the previous session so far.
so even if i do a relatively measely weight on the hypertrophy sets it will add significantly?
and just out of interest, what is the rational behind the approach? more growth hormone? more blood pumping to the area? etc
thanks
[/quote]
Ok, good then I’d count all 5 in that case. It really shouldn’t be a significantly less weight when you go to the other exercises. You just need to make sure you are pushing yourself as hard as possible. Use the same approach of adding sets or reps each week. My thoery as to why it works is more time under the weight causes more more muscle damamge and more growth. Is that true? I have no idea, but it makes as much sense as anything else, I just know it works. And remember, the 100 rep plan is just a guideline. Try to use isolation exercises that allow you to use a heavier weight like skullcrushers instead of dumbell kick backs.
but I would be looking to do say military presses followed by crushers and then maybe finish with kickbacks?
now all i need to do is expand my knowledge of exercises, as ive pretty much kept to the big lifts so far!
sorry to expand a bit, my question was:
if i am doing a compound lift like a military press, would i the do hypertrophy sets for shoulder, chest and triceps afterwards?
[quote]chutec wrote:
but I would be looking to do say military presses followed by crushers and then maybe finish with kickbacks?
now all i need to do is expand my knowledge of exercises, as ive pretty much kept to the big lifts so far![/quote]
Military press would be part of your shoulder work so it would be more like Military press, upright rows with your elbows high, then reverse dumbell flies.
I don’t particularly like kickbacks unless they are done with on the cables because you can’t use much weight, but my tricep work usually goes something like close grip bench press, dumbell skullcrushers, wide grip cable pushdowns.