[quote]Professor X wrote:
If that bias is mostly coming from one side of the aisle, I surely can.
The picture above is some random pic I found off the net but I chose it because this is typically how most of my frat brothers dress most of the time unless they are going to work. There are some here who would be “cautious” of these men for no reason other than that they are clueless about an entire culture in this country.
Maybe it is time for THAT to change and not us.[/quote]
No, you still can’t. Because it’s not “bias.” It’s interpretation of signals. And if the signals are coming from mostly one side of the aisle, what do you expect? I stand by my assertion that it is more incumbent on those giving signals to be aware of the message they may be communicating. If a woman dresses in a short, skin-tight skirt and a teeny tube top, she really doesn’t have much of a complaint if men think she looks like a slut - even if it’s all men making that judgment.
I agree that it would help for people to learn about other cultures. And to do that, there needs to be more interaction, and less “community”. And by “community,” I mean racially and culturally distinct subgroups that don’t interact with each other on a social level. Identity politics interferes with that necessary interaction.
This link is interesting:
http://www.law.upenn.edu/blogs/dskeel/archives/2008/03/race_and_crimestuntz.html#
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
“But she is a typical white person who, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know, there’s a reaction that’s been bred into our experiences that don’t go away, and that sometimes come out in the wrong way, and that’s just the nature of race in our society.”
Apparently, white culture has taught us to fear black men. I never knew…
[/quote]
There’s NOTHING wrong or unnatural about a white woman being afraid of a black man on the street.
PERIOD.
End the guilt trip right now. Snap out of it.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If that bias is mostly coming from one side of the aisle, I surely can.
The picture above is some random pic I found off the net but I chose it because this is typically how most of my frat brothers dress most of the time unless they are going to work. There are some here who would be “cautious” of these men for no reason other than that they are clueless about an entire culture in this country.
Maybe it is time for THAT to change and not us.
No, you still can’t. Because it’s not “bias.” It’s interpretation of signals. And if the signals are coming from mostly one side of the aisle, what do you expect? I stand by my assertion that it is more incumbent on those giving signals to be aware of the message they may be communicating. If a woman dresses in a short, skin-tight skirt and a teeny tube top, she really doesn’t have much of a complaint if men think she looks like a slut - even if it’s all men making that judgment.
I agree that it would help for people to learn about other cultures. And to do that, there needs to be more interaction, and less “community”. And by “community,” I mean racially and culturally distinct subgroups that don’t interact with each other on a social level. Identity politics interferes with that necessary interaction.[/quote]
Who sets these “social norms” so that someone wearing a certain style of clothes is seen as “sending signals”? Who in the general population? Guys wearing a style of clothing that has been around for decades slowly evolving is now “sending signals”?
Short of fitness women posing for ads in magazines, it is pretty universal that a woman wearing so little could be seen as a little “loose”. Someone wearing clothing with a more hip hop style is NOT universally seen as “clothes worn by thugs”. In fact, I would bet there is a very specific segment of the population who even thinks something like that.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
It’s not a matter of what he said, but that he said it at all.
Sorry to say it, but he does not get carte blanche just because he is black and running for POTUS.
He is going to be held to the same PC bullshit standard that whitey is held to. I think it is stupid that the First Amendment is not applicable to the highest office in the world.
I don’t think he said anything wrong - it’s the unwritten “don’t piss anyone off” rules that is wrong.
Hell, Trent Lott was forced to resign as Majority Leader for less offensive speech than what Sadaam is spewing.
[/quote]
Exactly, but should conservatives be enforcing this ridiculous standard by attacking Obama on this crap? Turnabout is fair play, sure, but isn’t the bigger problem political correctness, speech codes, and the like, not some meaningless comment by a politician? Conservatives should be loathe to attack Obama because the entire principle under which they would be doing so is a left-wing, Sixties legacy, that of political correctness. I’d like to think, despite all the evidence of the last seven years, that principle trumps politics on the right sometimes.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
It’s not a matter of what he said, but that he said it at all.
Sorry to say it, but he does not get carte blanche just because he is black and running for POTUS.
He is going to be held to the same PC bullshit standard that whitey is held to. I think it is stupid that the First Amendment is not applicable to the highest office in the world.
I don’t think he said anything wrong - it’s the unwritten “don’t piss anyone off” rules that is wrong.
Hell, Trent Lott was forced to resign as Majority Leader for less offensive speech than what Sadaam is spewing.
Exactly, but should conservatives be enforcing this ridiculous standard by attacking Obama on this crap? Turnabout is fair play, sure, but isn’t the bigger problem political correctness, speech codes, and the like, not some meaningless comment by a politician? Conservatives should be loathe to attack Obama because the entire principle under which they would be doing so is a left-wing, Sixties legacy, that of political correctness. I’d like to think, despite all the evidence of the last seven years, that principle trumps politics on the right sometimes.[/quote]
The left and the right are both groups of hypocritical jackasses. If conservative America even believed its own bullshit, they would be using instances like this to champion free speech and the termination of “political correctness”. Instead, they do exactly what they have accused the other side of doing. In fact, they seem to be jumping on any and every chance they can get to do so yet don’t even see their own fault.
Obama is clearly not the problem in America.
[quote]triple-10sets wrote:
Professor X, IF I dressed up in a polo shirt, and khaki’s and went to Compton California how do you think I would be treated ? Ok then… Its a two-way street buddy.[/quote]
You can’t be serious.
No matter what you might have heard from Cube and Ren, you’re not going to get jumped just for what you wear. If you do it has nothing to do with Compton and has to do more with being in a high crime neighborhood and looking like a target, which could happen in any city.
Besides, Compton is more Latin/Hispanic than Black, which kind of strays aways from your point, and this thread.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
This link is interesting:
http://www.law.upenn.edu/blogs/dskeel/archives/2008/03/race_and_crimestuntz.html#
[/quote]
So, should we drive burdened with fear and caution when we’re around a teenager in their car? Maybe I just don’t understand. I’ve always been cautious of people based on their actions, not their clothes or race.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
This link is interesting:
http://www.law.upenn.edu/blogs/dskeel/archives/2008/03/race_and_crimestuntz.html#
So, should we drive burdened with fear and caution when we’re around a teenager in their car? Maybe I just don’t understand. I’ve always been cautious of people based on their actions, not their clothes or race.[/quote]
By the looks of things, a lot of people in this thread were pretty damned “cautious” already of people for anything that strayed from their definition of “normal”.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
“But she is a typical white person who, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know, there’s a reaction that’s been bred into our experiences that don’t go away, and that sometimes come out in the wrong way, and that’s just the nature of race in our society.”
Apparently, white culture has taught us to fear black men. I never knew…
[/quote]
At one point in time,white culture DID teach to fear black men. Can’t believe that has to be pointed out…which,by the way…is far from what Obama was saying. Thats another topic.
What Obama says is true…when people come across somebody they do not know…they will have reactions or thoughts based on stereotypes that are engrained from their own experiences. Its the nature of race in our society…in this country. Anybody that disagrees must live in a cave on the highest mountain. Hell,its proven every time a thread is made about race on this forum.
Hell,this comment is an example itself:
[quote]HeadHunter wrote:
Sidenote: it doesn’t help either if black parents give weird names to their kids. I’m sorry but I KNOW that Shaniqua is black. It makes me think of someone who trumpets their race with a name, and I think that’s dumb. Guess I’m a typical white person redneck racist…
[/quote]
And you’re trying to make a point with Obama’s comments?? Please…get real. You’re just trying to stir up shit…you have no argument. I can’t believe you teach on college level.
Anyways,It is proven when my wife’s best friend’s (white)mother-in-law in Arizona refers to Brazilian nuts as “nigger toes.”…and uses the term “nigger-rig.” Why is that?..is she truly racist?..I don’t think she is. On the outside it looks cleary racist…but is it so ingrained in her that she doesn’t realize…or is SENSITIVE to what she is saying or how it offends.
This is being blown out of proportion…only because Obama used his “typical white” grandmother as an example. A valid example…from HIS OWN experiences with issues of race.
People claim to be SENSITIVE to issues of race,but are always desperate in playing the race card. And before anybody makes a fool of themselves,I’m not just talking about white people. We all see it from people in our lives…black or white…or whatever.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
It’s not a matter of what he said, but that he said it at all.
Sorry to say it, but he does not get carte blanche just because he is black and running for POTUS.
He is going to be held to the same PC bullshit standard that whitey is held to. I think it is stupid that the First Amendment is not applicable to the highest office in the world.
I don’t think he said anything wrong - it’s the unwritten “don’t piss anyone off” rules that is wrong.
Hell, Trent Lott was forced to resign as Majority Leader for less offensive speech than what Sadaam is spewing.
Exactly, but should conservatives be enforcing this ridiculous standard by attacking Obama on this crap? Turnabout is fair play, sure, but isn’t the bigger problem political correctness, speech codes, and the like, not some meaningless comment by a politician? Conservatives should be loathe to attack Obama because the entire principle under which they would be doing so is a left-wing, Sixties legacy, that of political correctness. I’d like to think, despite all the evidence of the last seven years, that principle trumps politics on the right sometimes.[/quote]
Is it just the conservatives doing this? This is all coming out in the heat of the dem primary - and I would love for someone to find a quote from McCain supporting your contention.
Politics is a dirty game - to think otherwise is just flat wrong.
Obama wants 2 sets of rules. It’s not going to happen. He is going to be held to the same stupid standards as the white guy. There is no reason to change the rules because some half-black guy is a leading contender for the job. There is no affirmative action in Presidential politics.
I find it hilarious that not one of the pro-Obama folks has mentioned that the Clintons are the ones that started the whole race thing - not conservatives.
Your last statement seems to be holding more true than any on the left care to admit. The true racists are, and always have been, on the left side of the aisle.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
An American writes, “I owe my freedom to white men” on this forum and no one bats an eye. Let someone claim that the typical white person is afraid of blacks and all hell breaks loose.
[/quote]
With all due respect, one is just some random guy on a sub-forum within a bodybuilding website. The other is trying to become president of the most powerful country in the world.
[quote]pat wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The loud and clear message I get from all of this is that it is too soon to elect a black man to the presidency, no matter how eloquent or intelligent he is. White people (well, I am) are shocked by how much anger still lurks in the black community. Sure bigotry exists but it won’t go away by having Liberation Theology all over TV and the WEB, and it won’t go away if leaders like Obama say stuff like what he did.
Sidenote: it doesn’t help either if black parents give wierd names to their kids. I’m sorry but I KNOW that Shaniqua is black. It makes me think of someone who trumpets their race with a name, and I think that’s dumb. Guess I’m a typical white person redneck racist…
I disagree. If there is electable president who shares my beliefs, is a decent person, and a proven track record, then he/she is getting my vote. I don’t give a shit what he or she is, period.
I think a lot of people share my sentiment.
The reason I am not voting for Obama is that I pretty much disagree with everything he says and stands for. Definately got nothing to do with race.
[/quote]
Pat, I agree. My point was that there is still too much antipathy between the races for this to happen.
I liken the black community to a person who had a horrendous childhood, but everything is much better now. Trouble is that the childhood taints the present.
Kind of like a hangover…like now…
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Fine, let’s pose the underlying question. Who here thinks a white woman is a racist for being more cautious around black men?
If we’re talking black men dressed like thugs? I think not. And, I’ll support that argument by saying the same woman would be alert to a white man sporting tats, a budweiser t-shirt, and a scraggly beard. You know, the crystal meth/trailer park thug type you see on ‘Cops.’
As a man, if you carry yourself like a thug, talk like a thug, and dress like a thug, I will suspect you are a thug. And, I will pay you some extra attention as we pass each other by on the sidewalk. But if you’re wearing clothes that fit, as oppossed to falling down past your ass, I probably won’t. And, if you don’t have facial piercings and visible tattoos of skulls on your forearms, I probably won’t pay any extra attention. Etc.
Long story short. I have never been suspicious of a black or white man wearing clothes, and sporting grooming habits, as if his mamma had raised him well.
And one last difficult question. One that surprisinly hasn’t been asked, what with all the white woman vs. black man talk. Do you think black women are more alert of black men around them, than they would be of white men? [/quote]
As an aside, the well-mannered, soft spoken, well-dressed ones are often the worst criminals of all. Look at the guys who run the Federal Reserve. ;D
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
We’ve already discussed how out of date your personal concept of what a “thug” looks like is. You also claim that race has nothing to do with who you are more cautious of even though you misunderstand the culture and see it as a negative.
Whether you can comprehend it or not, I don’t go around judging “baggy pants” as being “thuggish” and then assume I need to pay more attention to that person.
And if you were a 110.lb woman college gal, you honestly don’t think you’d have an extra amount of alertness/unease to certain types of dress, grooming, percieved attitude, and even physical size?
Are you incapable of understanding this? Someone who grew up around the culture would not be afraid of the culture. My cousin weighs about 120lbs, if that and NO, she would not be afraid, uneasy or anything else around people dressed like that. In fact, she goes to a historically black college.
Are some of you really this culturally retarded?
How fucking sad.[/quote]
Would your cousin, if alone, be more alert/cautious if she were walking down the street and some big ass redneck with a confederate flag t-shirt and black combat boots etc. passed by?
If so, is it a racial thing or a cultural thing? The bottom line is, most people make initial judgements based on clothes and personal appearances.
[quote]new2training wrote:
Professor X wrote:
An American writes, “I owe my freedom to white men” on this forum and no one bats an eye. Let someone claim that the typical white person is afraid of blacks and all hell breaks loose.
With all due respect, one is just some random guy on a sub-forum within a bodybuilding website. The other is trying to become president of the most powerful country in the world. [/quote]
If any of you assholes were actually worried about the principal of what was said, it wouldn’t matter when it comes to the feelings produced. Clearly it does not really matter to any of you and you are just bringing up any instance you can so you can yell out, “See, that was racist and he’s black!”.
[quote]new2training wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
We’ve already discussed how out of date your personal concept of what a “thug” looks like is. You also claim that race has nothing to do with who you are more cautious of even though you misunderstand the culture and see it as a negative.
Whether you can comprehend it or not, I don’t go around judging “baggy pants” as being “thuggish” and then assume I need to pay more attention to that person.
And if you were a 110.lb woman college gal, you honestly don’t think you’d have an extra amount of alertness/unease to certain types of dress, grooming, percieved attitude, and even physical size?
Are you incapable of understanding this? Someone who grew up around the culture would not be afraid of the culture. My cousin weighs about 120lbs, if that and NO, she would not be afraid, uneasy or anything else around people dressed like that. In fact, she goes to a historically black college.
Are some of you really this culturally retarded?
How fucking sad.
Would your cousin, if alone, be more alert/cautious if she were walking down the street and some big ass redneck with a confederate flag t-shirt and black combat boots etc. passed by?
If so, is it a racial thing or a cultural thing? The bottom line is, most people make initial judgements based on clothes and personal appearances. [/quote]
How is he a redneck? To my knowledge, that term is applied to the way people ACT. Mind you, I fucking live in Texas.
Sorry to tell you this, but I, and most of the people I know, do NOT share your FEAR of other cultures.
Every single one of you keeps proving his statement correct yet you all had the nerve to act offended.
That’s just plain pathetic.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
new2training wrote:
Professor X wrote:
An American writes, “I owe my freedom to white men” on this forum and no one bats an eye. Let someone claim that the typical white person is afraid of blacks and all hell breaks loose.
With all due respect, one is just some random guy on a sub-forum within a bodybuilding website. The other is trying to become president of the most powerful country in the world.
If any of you assholes were actually worried about the principal of what was said, it wouldn’t matter when it comes to the feelings produced. Clearly it does not really matter to any of you and you are just bringing up any instance you can so you can yell out, “See, that was racist and he’s black!”. [/quote]
No good reason to take it a personal level with the asshole comment. So be it though.
My only points in this thread didn’t have anything to do with thinking that Obama is racist. I don’t think he is. Given that he is usually such a great public speaker, I think the grandmother anecdote was clumsy and his defense of it was worse. Doesn’t make him a racist though.
My initial point was that I think Obama could have addressed the issue better. Another point is that a white politician would not get away with saying how a “typical black person” behaves without similar or more intense scrutiny.
My other point pertained to the side discussion you and Sloth were having. Not much to do with Obama. I believe, as he does, that certain modes of dress and personal appearance do and should raise your awareness and level of caution. It doensn’t have anything to do with race either. That point has already been made several times though.
If you don’t get it by now, I doubt you’re going to.
Peace
[quote]Professor X wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
It’s not a matter of what he said, but that he said it at all.
Sorry to say it, but he does not get carte blanche just because he is black and running for POTUS.
He is going to be held to the same PC bullshit standard that whitey is held to. I think it is stupid that the First Amendment is not applicable to the highest office in the world.
I don’t think he said anything wrong - it’s the unwritten “don’t piss anyone off” rules that is wrong.
Hell, Trent Lott was forced to resign as Majority Leader for less offensive speech than what Sadaam is spewing.
Exactly, but should conservatives be enforcing this ridiculous standard by attacking Obama on this crap? Turnabout is fair play, sure, but isn’t the bigger problem political correctness, speech codes, and the like, not some meaningless comment by a politician? Conservatives should be loathe to attack Obama because the entire principle under which they would be doing so is a left-wing, Sixties legacy, that of political correctness. I’d like to think, despite all the evidence of the last seven years, that principle trumps politics on the right sometimes.
The left and the right are both groups of hypocritical jackasses. If conservative America even believed its own bullshit, they would be using instances like this to champion free speech and the termination of “political correctness”. Instead, they do exactly what they have accused the other side of doing. In fact, they seem to be jumping on any and every chance they can get to do so yet don’t even see their own fault.
Obama is clearly not the problem in America.[/quote]
Over the last decade or so I’ve come to the conclusion that it doesn’t work politically to have two sets of rules. The biggest turning point for me was the courts - nominations of judges and using lawsuits. And just like laws, the best way to get rid of stupid or unfair laws is to make sure they are enforced, strongly, against everyone.
Political correctness is stupid - but it won’t go away if it’s only enforced against Trent Lott. The idea that race is verboten won’t go away if it’s only pushed against white Republicans.
So, a comment about what a “typical black” would like is either OK or not - and if it’s not, then the standard needs to be enforced against Obama’s “typical white” comment as well.
Let’s discuss the standard.