How do you think those causes can be ameliorated? I have some ideas. What are yours?
I actually think if there was the current amount of adrift men in the US but none of the vices and addictions (plenty of cheap, easily accessible fattening food, video games, social media, cheap entertainment like Netflix, porn, drugs and alcohol, etc.) to deal with their lots, there would’ve already been a revolt.
The author F. Roger Devlin, who wrote Sexual Utopia in Power: The Feminist Revolt Against Civilization, and the first or second to popularize the term hypergamy for dating, said porn is an epiphenomenon, like you have implied. I agree with you both.
actually think if there was the current amount of adrift men in the US but none of the vices and addictions (plenty of cheap, easily accessible fattening food, video games, social media, cheap entertainment like Netflix, porn, drugs and alcohol, etc.) to deal with their lots, there would’ve already been a revolt.
So a literal incel uprising? I highly doubt that. The vast majority of guys will just find another form of escapism. Humans are very good at escapism, especially when problems seem unfixable.
How do you think those causes can be ameliorated? I have some ideas. What are yours?
First I just want to say that these issues aren’t unique to the West. Japan, South Korea and China are having similar issues. Even Punjab has an epidemic of guys who don’t work and do drugs all day. And Punjab is a very patriarchal society devoid of the feminism, dating issues, and dating apps of the West. The opposite of “hypergamy” exists there with STEM working women being full-time housewives while the man just does drugs all day.
The common unifying aspects seem to be: Men who feel like their chance at social mobility/a better lifestyle is gone, and men who feel that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze even if they work super hard. IME, it seems to cause a downward spiral where they stop caring about their life, which makes meaningful dating/marriage very hard even if society is patriarchal. Women in India will marry these types, but Western women won’t. Either way, the men are still adrift.
As for how to fix it? Truthfully, I don’t know. But here are some problem areas IME.
College has replaced high school as the minimum barrier to entry. Honestly, unless a field truly needs a degree such as medicine or pharmacy, college should not be needed for most jobs. Such a waste of time and money that delays adulthood until age 30 for most men. And even for jobs that need degrees, they should not be that long and expensive. The common way for social mobility should not be extreme debt and the loss of your 20s. And worse, men who didn’t go to college or have useless degrees often feel that they forever missed the chance for social mobility.
Most careers offer little room for real progression. The days of moving up the ladder are dead for most. This means unless a guy is extremely hard working, highly networked, or entrepreneurial, they’re capped very young earning-wise. At an individual level you can tell a guy to work harder and/or start a business, but you can’t tell that to millions. Adding to this, HR and modern workplace culture effectively turns the office into a humiliation ritual for most men. Even my wife agrees that the modern workplace is very emasculating for most men. I feel that you’ll agree.
Rising cost of living. Everyone feels this.
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I have no idea what the solution is for points 2 and 3. IME, these economic conditions are what cause many men to essentially give up in life, which then leads to dating issues, which then leads to things like obsessive porn watching. You cannot have a generation of men who feel that the only way forward financially is with debt, the loss of their 20s, no real benefit to working hard, no chance of home ownership, and an emasculating work experience. They will rightfully leave the economy and society.
Only saw about 2/3 of it, but damn that’s a good video, even though I don’t agree with some of the conclusions.
Edit: Finished it while doing PT haha. I also fear a right-wing backlash since my experience has been that most men are liberal in public, but when you talk to them in-private, they’re a lot more conservative than they let on. The hate many men feel towards the current economy, where the economy is headed, and the outright bizarre focus on identity in politics has left a lot of guys angry, and that’s a scary thing.
Many of my relatives lived through the 1947 partition of India/Pakistan, and some may have (probably did) take part in the massacres. I obviously wasn’t alive then, but from talking with them, I know what genuine balkanization and violent backlash looks like.
The young men being raised now (and for awhile) have been constantly told many innate things about their psychology and behavior are bad and “toxic”. It’s been one giant bullying shit-storm since the moment they could understand speech (we have had topics on here covering this stuff)… Not surprised many are getting angrier and angrier with nothing concrete to latch onto.
Tyler Durden said it 25 years ago, and now a whole nother generation has the same fate:
Most people job hop to progress their careers. It is a bummer that it is very tough to climb the ladder at one company if you like it there.
It would have taken me 3-5 years to get the salary jump that I got by switching had I stayed where I was.
It makes more sense early on. There is a limit to how much certain careers pay, so after a few hops, one could settle down at a place that fits them pretty well. Then I suppose if they want more, the most common move is trying to get into management. I have a few friends that are in this boat. Just not satisfied with the income level that being a worker in their career of choice can produce. Some of that is unrealistic expectations. One of my buddies that is a Mechanical Engineer was thinking $125-150K (closer to the latter) by mid 30s was realistic, or even average. Maybe in Cali, but not so much in the mid-West.
You will never make as much money working for someone as you will working for yourself - usually.
Now, if you have very desired established skills that can be an exception.
I do agree with connections and networking are what separate you. At a certain level everyone is smart and competent for the most part - you need something to set you apart from the pack.
Related video that came out today related to
your observations and analyses. I’ve been subbed to this guy for a long time. He has some interesting content. I think he is a good guy but is too gloomy for my liking. He’s one of the original manospherians and was around before the PUA/hustle/grind/big-man buffoons took over.
Taken as a whole, they seem to be the least capable generation in many generations. This is not their fault, but the fault of the adults who allowed academic and behavioral standards to erode, mostly under the pretense of “self-esteem” and “social justice”. The voting population has been asleep at the wheel for some time, happy to delegate too many important tasks to unelected bureaucrats and administrators in government/education.
That said, the best of Gen Z will be the best we’ve ever had in their chosen pursuits. The kids who can navigate all of the traps we’ve left laying around for them to step in and go on to take advantage of all of the advantages present in 2023 will go on to be some of the bests adults ever created.
For the rest, it will be a race to see who can get their phone out of their face, stop feeling sorry for themselves and develop a skillset they can make a living off of. As of right now my neighborhood Chipotle is not up to the task of assembling burritos. I’m not quite sure how they are still in business.
I’ve given them a few chances since they opened, but taking orders, preparing ingredients and assembling burritos reliably and repeatedly remains out-of-reach for that particular staff of Gen Z workers.
I’m not disagreeing but as a 23 y.o., every guy I know who watches a lot of porn/has a porn addiction, started at like 13 years old. Even today, way too many kids and young teens have way too few restrictions on their internet activity, and it’s a big part of them developing addictions and depression/anxiety. One of my buddies from high school was watching porn online by the 5th grade. Seeing the most extreme porn ever before one even hits puberty is so unhealthy. My cousin is 11 y.o., and recently had some scandal in his school when kids in his class (other ELEVEN year olds!) were sending dick pics and videos of them “blowing” cucumbers and pop bottles. And these were just normal, every day kids in a small Midwest town.
Most of these people are developing porn addictions and unhealthy attitudes towards sex LONG before they have a clue what today’s “dating culture” is like or what the odds of them owning a house is.
The burrito bowl is a much safer bet. It’s not a guarantee, sadly, but there’s way more room for error when the end goal is slop. IME I’ve always gotten a slightly larger portion out of the bowl too. Two points in the bowls favor, which somewhat makes up for the lackluster eating experience compares to a finely crafted burrito.
This is not unique to your chipotle. The one near me has the same issues and the worst experience I ever had at one was when traveling through Gainesville, FL. Staffed by what I presumed were UF students. Ordered for mobile pickup - all the burritos (4) were wrong and the chicken I think came straight out of the freezer (must come precooked). And they wouldn’t give me my money back. I had to call the corporate office.
