ATG Squat?

Training
81

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Pavel Tsatouline is also a proponent of squatting above parallel from what I remember (At least from a ROM progression stand point anyway). [/quote]

That is extremely hard to believe.
I’ve seen many, many workshops by him… I didn’t really feel that he would advocate such a thing.

EDIT

Ah, perhaps I read it wrong.
He does incorporate shallow squats for seniors or for those who are beginners.
But in the end, the eventual goal is the third world (asian) squat depth.[/quote]

No, I don’t think so, but I could be misrepresenting. I’ll look through Beyond Bodybuilding when I get home. I’m pretty sure that’s where I’m getting it from.

82

[quote]mattd534 wrote:
Do you guys go ATG on squats when training for strength or slightly below parallel?[/quote]
There have been a ton of articles discussing the pros and cons of various squat depths. Might be worth reading up on for even more input.
http://www.T-Nation.com/searchResults.jsp?cx=016420786931182441572%3Akswwmllusns&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=squat+depth&siteurl=www.T-Nation.com%2Ffree_online_article%2Fmost_recent%2Fdo_you_need_to_squat_deeply&ref=www.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D4%26ved%3D0CDQQFjAD%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.T-Nation.com%252Ffree_online_article%252Fmost_recent%252Fdo_you_need_to_squat_deeply%26ei%3DGPztVNb6FcOnNqaFgcAD%26usg%3DAFQjCNEzZF_aCrcLu00YR2rVH83c087vOQ%26cad%3Drja&ss=1145j145675j11

Like the consensus here has been, it basically depends on your goals and your build. For what it’s worth, I’d suggest you (being 6’2" and almost 150 pounds) stick with plain old parallel-or-just-below-parallel squats, keep building your strength/size base, and consider higher squats to almost be a “technique” you can break out sometime down the line if/when it becomes goal-appropriate.

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I currently take all my squats to where my butt is literally only a couple inches off the ground. That allows me to challenge myself while using a weight small enough that it doesn?t hurt my back.[/quote]
that’s the exact same reason I squat deep as well. My lower body sessions are always designed to keep spinal loading as minimal as possible. Front squatting deep with pre-exhausted quad and hams every time for me.[/quote]
Alwyn Cosgrove once paraphrased advice from Gray Cook when talking about striking a balance between improving performance, building strength, and minimizing joint stress: “Train the deadlift for strength and the squat for mobility.” That’s really sunk in lately and is something I’ve been trying to stick with; training deads heavier/lower rep and keeping squats deeper and relatively-lighter/moderate to higher rep. It definitely feels more natural and seems to be working. So yep, x3 on that idea.

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Pavel Tsatouline is also a proponent of squatting above parallel from what I remember (At least from a ROM progression stand point anyway). [/quote]

That is extremely hard to believe.
I’ve seen many, many workshops by him… I didn’t really feel that he would advocate such a thing.

EDIT

Ah, perhaps I read it wrong.
He does incorporate shallow squats for seniors or for those who are beginners.
But in the end, the eventual goal is the third world (asian) squat depth.[/quote]

No, I don’t think so, but I could be misrepresenting. I’ll look through Beyond Bodybuilding when I get home. I’m pretty sure that’s where I’m getting it from. [/quote]

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Pavel Tsatouline is also a proponent of squatting above parallel from what I remember (At least from a ROM progression stand point anyway). [/quote]

That is extremely hard to believe.
I’ve seen many, many workshops by him… I didn’t really feel that he would advocate such a thing.

EDIT

Ah, perhaps I read it wrong.
He does incorporate shallow squats for seniors or for those who are beginners.
But in the end, the eventual goal is the third world (asian) squat depth.[/quote]

No, I don’t think so, but I could be misrepresenting. I’ll look through Beyond Bodybuilding when I get home. I’m pretty sure that’s where I’m getting it from. [/quote]

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Pavel Tsatouline is also a proponent of squatting above parallel from what I remember (At least from a ROM progression stand point anyway). [/quote]

That is extremely hard to believe.
I’ve seen many, many workshops by him… I didn’t really feel that he would advocate such a thing.

EDIT

Ah, perhaps I read it wrong.
He does incorporate shallow squats for seniors or for those who are beginners.
But in the end, the eventual goal is the third world (asian) squat depth.[/quote]

No, I don’t think so, but I could be misrepresenting. I’ll look through Beyond Bodybuilding when I get home. I’m pretty sure that’s where I’m getting it from. [/quote]

There’s that Paul Anderson name.

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He also talks about bottom up squats.

87

How about that ring to index finger ratio.

88

[quote]LoRez wrote:
How about that ring to index finger ratio.[/quote]

Lol, I knew someone was gonna bring that up…

Both my ring fingers are longer than my pointer finger, for the record.

89

Great posts USMC. Beyond Bodybuilding is still one of my absolute favorite reads on training. Changed my life the first time I read it.

90

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Great posts USMC. Beyond Bodybuilding is still one of my absolute favorite reads on training. Changed my life the first time I read it.[/quote]

I really like it too. Have you tried the bottom up squat program Pavel talks about? IIRC it’s squatting bottom up 3 days a week. He seems to be pretty confident it’ll make your squat strong as hell. I’ve never talked with anyone that’s done it though.

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Never followed it. The only actual program I ran out lf it was the 3-5, which was awesome. I am sure it would work well though.

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[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Never followed it. The only actual program I ran out lf it was the 3-5, which was awesome. I am sure it would work well though. [/quote]

Nice. I might give it a try one of these days.

93

Took some video of my training today to show what I’m talking about. This is the start of a cycle, about the highest I’ll squat with heavy weight.

From here, I will lower the bar 1 chain link each week for the next 6 weeks while keeping the weight the same.

94

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
Based on what you’ve said, what makes you feel that squatting ‘above depth’ is superior for you to that of squatting below?
And wouldn’t knee pain, during any style of knee flexion, be a sign of something otherwise?[/quote]

Results. Again though, I am saying it is superior for me, not a universalism.

And I am sure knee pain during any style of flexion is a sign of something, as opposed to a sign of nothing. [/quote]

Agreed, and your results speak for them self.
What I’m asking is how could you be so sure that the half squats are superior when you haven’t given full squats a go?
[/quote]

I’ve never needed to do a full squat to reach my goals before. If the need every arises, I will give them a go, but to me it seems foolish to abandon a working approach in order to try out a different one.

I find it odd that you feel that I think of half squats as superior. I believe you are the only one that has used this word choice actually. I simply use what works, and what I have found to work for me is squats in a variety of ranges above powerlifting legal (from slightly above to substantially, and not just the half squat exclusively).

Allow me to posit my own question: if my method is working, why would I want to squat lower? [/quote]

I’m asking based upon what you’ve stated. Namely, the fact that you have yet to try squatting below parallel.
It’s not that I believe that you admonish breaking parallel, I’m just curious as to why you would choose one method over another without ever trying the other.
With that said, I am also a proponent for using what works for the specific individual and his/her goals. I wouldn’t have told Mike Tyson to put in extra sessions on the speed bag (because he sucked balls on them), just because that is ‘protocol’. Nor would I tell Ronnie Coleman to lock out on every bench press and squat for the same reason. And god knows Branch Warren probably has never done a full squat. It was my attempt to brain pick, hoping you’d share some insights from your own personal experience. Again, not discrediting your method.

And judging from your video, I wouldn’t consider those quarter squats or even half squats. I’d say it’s heavy training.

95

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Pavel Tsatouline is also a proponent of squatting above parallel from what I remember (At least from a ROM progression stand point anyway). [/quote]

That is extremely hard to believe.
I’ve seen many, many workshops by him… I didn’t really feel that he would advocate such a thing.

EDIT

Ah, perhaps I read it wrong.
He does incorporate shallow squats for seniors or for those who are beginners.
But in the end, the eventual goal is the third world (asian) squat depth.[/quote]

No, I don’t think so, but I could be misrepresenting. I’ll look through Beyond Bodybuilding when I get home. I’m pretty sure that’s where I’m getting it from. [/quote]

Thanks for the material. Reminded me of a post on T-Nation article (I believe it was Thibs or Waterbury) from a couple years ago. From what I understand, Pavel is all about efficiency and correct firing patterns. Hence, he’s got extensive material on MMS, mobility/flexibility and ROM strength. I was more so implicating that side of his teachings.

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To clarify, I said I squatted below parallel for years. I have never done an ATG squat before.

97

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
To clarify, I said I squatted below parallel for years. I have never done an ATG squat before. [/quote]

touche

98

Just an added thought on the ATG squat and knee pains is that when you go low enough that your calves are compressing against your hamstrings, you then create a lever that is trying to pull your knee apart. That’s not what the knee is designed for, especially loaded with hundreds of lbs.

99

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Just an added thought on the ATG squat and knee pains is that when you go low enough that your calves are compressing against your hamstrings, you then create a lever that is trying to pull your knee apart. That’s not what the knee is designed for, especially loaded with hundreds of lbs. [/quote]

But the forces pulling the knee apart are counteracted by the weight and muscle tension. It’s possible the compression between your calves and your hams gets high enough to actually cause net tension at the knee, but I doubt it. I’d need to see some measurements.

100

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Just an added thought on the ATG squat and knee pains is that when you go low enough that your calves are compressing against your hamstrings, you then create a lever that is trying to pull your knee apart. That’s not what the knee is designed for, especially loaded with hundreds of lbs. [/quote]

But the forces pulling the knee apart are counteracted by the weight and muscle tension. It’s possible the compression between your calves and your hams gets high enough to actually cause net tension at the knee, but I doubt it. I’d need to see some measurements.[/quote]

Just anecdotal but my knees feel better now that I squat ATG with a narrow stance. They would be sore for a few days when I used a sumo stance.