Decided to start another thread rather than redirect the thread with a similar (opposite) title.
For someone getting lean for the first time, how lean should they get before trying to add muscle again? I’ve read a number of trainers/coaches say not to diet for hypertrophy until you are lean (10-12%), because too much of the weight gain will be fat.
My sitrep: I was a fat powerlifter, and have dropped 58lbs since I quit competing (232 to 174), including 35 lbs over the last 18 months, and 12 over the last 16 weeks. What sucks for me is that I am way down in weight, maintained most of my arm size and quad size (by tape), just hit a couple all-time PR’s (Standing Press, Deadlift). Yet I still do not have visible abs (probably 20-30mm of fat on my lower abdomen). I also have very little definition in my upper arms (a solitary bicep vein.)
My suspicion is that I should keep cutting until my abs show (at 10-12%) before thinking about a calorie surplus, but I thought I would get some feedback. An 18 month run of calorie deficits is manageable, with slow, steady progress, but wondering where the bottom is.
Also, is the answer different for someone whose genetics would tend toward being strong and fat versus thin and lean? Does the “endomorph,” for lack of a better term, have to be leaner before going to surplus calories?
I’d say if your lifts are staying up there and you’re still feeling good there’s no real reason to stop dieting. Once your lifts start dropping significantly and you start feeling crappy all the time, probably a good idea to bump up the calories. It also depends a lot on your goals. Do you want to be leaner than you are now? Is the goal of getting in better shape more important to you than the negatives that can come with dieting? If so, keep going.
When you do decide to go into a surplus though, approach it with the same mindset as you approached your diet. This “reverse dieting” ie slowly adding calories over time (and/or removing some cardio if you’re doing a lot of it) to get your metabolism revved up again like it was before the diet, can be way harder than the diet itself. Once your mindset changes from “losing weight” to “gaining weight” it becomes so much harder to say no to all the snacks and drinks that you’d like to have.
I do want to be a little leaner than I am. I have never seen my abs. That is the main goal. But I’d rather be able to do that with some muscle left on my frame than look like Pitt in Fight Club. I’ve been feeling crappy the last few weeks (low carb days). I took last weekend off, while on a camping/fishing trip, didn’t plan meals or track anything. Hopefully the break helps me buckle down for a little while longer.
My sense reading through this BB forum is most of the regular posters were “always fairly lean” and have struggled to gain weight. The fat guys trying to lean out are over at the Velocity and Conditioning forums. If there are any other recovering fat guys on here, I’d love to hear about how you turned the corner once you hit your leanness goal.
[quote]orcrist wrote:
My sense reading through this BB forum is most of the regular posters were “always fairly lean” and have struggled to gain weight. [/quote]
That is only because they are speaking the loudest lately and shouting down alternate opinions.
Those lethargic feelings you have are a sign that carbs may be too low and that you need to spend some time MAINTAINING your body weight without the dieting (with the mindset of muscle gain).
Beware of thinking that everyone here shares the same mindset.
X, your advice is literally going against what he has stated his goals are. His primary goal is to see his abs. Why would you recommend that he stop dieting? OP, I would definitely do what has been advised in the first few responses.
Keep doing what you are doing until your lifts start to suffer. Then add a bit more calories and see where that takes you. CT himself said that there is bound to be some drop in your lifts while dieting, but anything around 10-20lbs is normal. Now, if you start seeing huge drops, then you need to eat a bit more.
Also, OP, realize that too long in a caloric deficit, especially when this is a new phase for you, will often lead to more muscle loss the longer you keep doing it.
Periods of maintaining carbs and cals are utilized.
Mind you, I was given advice just like this from CT himself in person…but as you can see, any alternate opinions to the current “always stay lean” crowd and they shout that down even if it comes from him.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, OP, realize that too long in a caloric deficit, especially when this is a new phase for you, will often lead to more muscle loss the longer you keep doing it.
Periods of maintaining carbs and cals are utilized.
Mind you, I was given advice just like this from CT himself in person…but as you can see, any alternate opinions to the current “always stay lean” crowd and they shout that down even if it comes from him.[/quote]
I’m sorry X but just as you rag on ppl that haven’t “bulked” giving advice about it I feel you have no place giving advice on cutting
The strategic use of diet breaks, especially with extended periods of Calorie restriction, are probably a good idea in the long run. Physiologically it will help some of the hormones affected by aggressive weight loss to recover somewhat, such as thyroid hormones and leptin, but taking a little time off from dieting helps some people with the mental aspects of long-term weight control. Having a couple of weeks where you do not obsess about scale weight or feel too run down helps some people maintain greater compliance over the long term. In addition, this may also help to break up the diet into more manageable pieces. Guys like Lyle McDonald have written about this.
The problem some people will have though, is that “maintenance” is actually hard. Adding in Kcals , food volume and carbohydrates will immediately increase scale weight, which will freak some people out and they will think that they are getting fatter and adjusting from a mind-set of where you are working towards a goal to just maintaining yourself is hard for some.
With the mindset of long-term success is it often beneficial to use a model of two steps forward and one step back from time to time. Lots of people see no issue with deloading training when they feel beat up, or using non-linear approaches to their training program. I see no reason why a diet should be any different.
[quote]Dave Rogerson wrote:
The strategic use of diet breaks, especially with extended periods of Calorie restriction, are probably a good idea in the long run. Physiologically it will help some of the hormones affected by aggressive weight loss to recover somewhat, such as thyroid hormones and leptin, but taking a little time off from dieting helps some people with the mental aspects of long-term weight control. Having a couple of weeks where you do not obsess about scale weight or feel too run down helps some people maintain greater compliance over the long term. In addition, this may also help to break up the diet into more manageable pieces. Guys like Lyle McDonald have written about this.
The problem some people will have though, is that “maintenance” is actually hard. Adding in Kcals , food volume and carbohydrates will immediately increase scale weight, which will freak some people out and they will think that they are getting fatter and adjusting from a mind-set of where you are working towards a goal to just maintaining yourself is hard for some.
With the mindset of long-term success is it often beneficial to use a model of two steps forward and one step back from time to time. Lots of people see no issue with deloading training when they feel beat up, or using non-linear approaches to their training program. I see no reason why a diet should be any different. [/quote]
Well said. This is how you make long term progress.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, OP, realize that too long in a caloric deficit, especially when this is a new phase for you, will often lead to more muscle loss the longer you keep doing it.
Periods of maintaining carbs and cals are utilized.
Mind you, I was given advice just like this from CT himself in person…but as you can see, any alternate opinions to the current “always stay lean” crowd and they shout that down even if it comes from him.[/quote]
I’m sorry X but just as you rag on ppl that haven’t “bulked” giving advice about it I feel you have no place giving advice on cutting [/quote]
Illogical considering how many times in my life I have dropped weight.
That avatar is recent. Not sure what you mean other than your own personal bias…again.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, OP, realize that too long in a caloric deficit, especially when this is a new phase for you, will often lead to more muscle loss the longer you keep doing it.
Periods of maintaining carbs and cals are utilized.
Mind you, I was given advice just like this from CT himself in person…but as you can see, any alternate opinions to the current “always stay lean” crowd and they shout that down even if it comes from him.[/quote]
I’m sorry X but just as you rag on ppl that haven’t “bulked” giving advice about it I feel you have no place giving advice on cutting [/quote]
Illogical considering how many times in my life I have dropped weight.
That avatar is recent. Not sure what you mean other than your own personal bias…again.
[/quote]
Yeah you dropped weight, you got your BF in high teens.Kudos!
This thread, op has been a good example of what I stated before. You are not dieting for a contest. You have received good advice. You be the judge of who you listen to.
Don’t let others decide for you.
If you’re long term cutting I think most people can agree diet breaks can be helpful but not 100% essential. But reverse dieting out of your cut is very important OP (slowly adding in 100-200 calories a week after the end of your diet) this will help you find your new maintenance level
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, OP, realize that too long in a caloric deficit, especially when this is a new phase for you, will often lead to more muscle loss the longer you keep doing it.
Periods of maintaining carbs and cals are utilized.
Mind you, I was given advice just like this from CT himself in person…but as you can see, any alternate opinions to the current “always stay lean” crowd and they shout that down even if it comes from him.[/quote]
I’m sorry X but just as you rag on ppl that haven’t “bulked” giving advice about it I feel you have no place giving advice on cutting [/quote]
Illogical considering how many times in my life I have dropped weight.
That avatar is recent. Not sure what you mean other than your own personal bias…again.
[/quote]
Dropped weight lol? We are talking about cutting. Ie losing bf and when to stop. X you stop because you feel a little small becuse you lose a bit of water bloat I’m sensing quite the double standard here. You don’t cut ever but can give ppl advice. Others don’t bulk the way you do and attempt to give alternate gaining advice and you make sure yell at them for that.
The first reply in this thread was perfect. Gmoore hit it on the head.
Obviously dieting for a long stretch can wear people down mentally as well as physically if they’re not used to it. CT was smart with his general suggestion that after a certain amount of time you should take a break, BUT on the other hand you can see a good number of top natural pros who will diet for 4 to 6 months for a contest, and continually come in top shape, even making improvements year after year.
What I take from this: If I were to make a general statement that other people would read, especially if they had never experienced a drastic cut, or gotten down to seriously lean levels before, I would tell them not to diet for such long periods either. BUT if I were chatting with another very experienced individual who understood various approaches to maximizing muscle retention, preventing drops in hormone levels, and mentally understood what such an experience entailed, then I would have no problem planning a very lengthy cut.
Just a note to the op, as you can see, that advice given is meant to help avoid lengthy periods of dieting.
Your body adapts over time to drastic caloric restriction. Your mental state and feelings of well being are more important to long term success in what you are trying to do than trying to hold out the longest on a restricted caloric diet.
Part of this is listening to your own body. The rest is not letting it get comfortable.
I will also add that I think 4 months is about the most someone should diet unless they are extremely aware of the changes in their own body and have much experience doing the same with good results.
If someone is new to training, 2 months of straight dieting with some limited time of maintenance is possibly a good idea.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Obviously dieting for a long stretch can wear people down mentally as well as physically if they’re not used to it. CT was smart with his general suggestion that after a certain amount of time you should take a break, BUT on the other hand you can see a good number of top natural pros who will diet for 4 to 6 months for a contest, and continually come in top shape, even making improvements year after year.
S[/quote]
This man is not a top pro.
This man is not dieting for a contest.
This man has never been that lean before.
The audience you speak to is often more important than the message.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Obviously dieting for a long stretch can wear people down mentally as well as physically if they’re not used to it. CT was smart with his general suggestion that after a certain amount of time you should take a break, BUT on the other hand you can see a good number of top natural pros who will diet for 4 to 6 months for a contest, and continually come in top shape, even making improvements year after year.
S[/quote]
This man is not a top pro.
This man is not dieting for a contest.
This man has never been that lean before.
The audience you speak to is often more important than the message.[/quote]
I think we all know that, but thanks for repeating it. I’m simply commenting on the topic of lengthy cuts or not. And in discussing Thibs, who I think we all respect, he has said many times that he understands that what he writes is read by many people of all levels, and as such as he to tailor, and even alter what he truly believes lest he give the wrong impression to people. In this thread, the OP has already receives some good advice, so I’m certainly not going to complicate matters, simply elaborate on where the discussion was heading.