Artem, Were'd He Go?

Training Bodybuilding
61

Does what make? getting fat or are we talking about arterm’s pic of a borderline obese dude with little to no muscle on him.

I don’t think getting fat is beneficial at all, if you get a little fat but it’s allowing for optimal growth than ok but I think the goal should be to stay as lean as possible while growing. Meaning once the point comes where you’re just gaining fat at it’s excessive you should lean up.

I almost remember reading Priest did that for a commercial or some shit. Plus he’s muscular under that fat and lastly probably upping the amount of juice he’s taking while leaning down.

62

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Does what make? getting fat or are we talking about arterm’s pic of a borderline obese dude with little to no muscle on him.

I don’t think getting fat is beneficial at all, if you get a little fat but it’s allowing for optimal growth than ok but I think the goal should be to stay as lean as possible while growing. Meaning once the point comes where you’re just gaining fat at it’s excessive you should lean up.

I almost remember reading Priest did that for a commercial or some shit. Plus he’s muscular under that fat and lastly probably upping the amount of juice he’s taking while leaning down. [/quote]

Your exact quote was:

So, what I’m asking is that had he (Artem) been equally ‘fat’ and had significantly higher lifts (indicating he’d produced some muscle under there) would you say the same?

I’m not defending Artem’s “bulk” per se-- at that one pic, he could have done some adjustments, especially given his low weights, but at the same time I say, if you’re gaining size and the lifts are increasing to match, then you’d be somewhat foolish to back off totally at that point (ie switch to ‘cut’ mode).

63

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
… and lastly probably upping the amount of juice he’s taking while leaning down. [/quote]

Awww, C’mon Man!

64

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Does what make? getting fat or are we talking about arterm’s pic of a borderline obese dude with little to no muscle on him.

I don’t think getting fat is beneficial at all, if you get a little fat but it’s allowing for optimal growth than ok but I think the goal should be to stay as lean as possible while growing. Meaning once the point comes where you’re just gaining fat at it’s excessive you should lean up.

I almost remember reading Priest did that for a commercial or some shit. Plus he’s muscular under that fat and lastly probably upping the amount of juice he’s taking while leaning down. [/quote]

Your exact quote was:

So, what I’m asking is that had he (Artem) been equally ‘fat’ and had significantly higher lifts (indicating he’d produced some muscle under there) would you say the same?

I’m not defending Artem’s “bulk” per se-- at that one pic, he could have done some adjustments, especially given his low weights, but at the same time I say, if you’re gaining size and the lifts are increasing to match, then you’d be somewhat foolish to back off totally at that point (ie switch to ‘cut’ mode).
[/quote]

Come on Steely, haven’t you learned the T-Nation definition of “bodybuilding” changes depending on which point the poster wants to make???

If you claim that getting a 15 year old kid strong and big by way of Starting Strength will eventually be good for his physique, some keyboard expert will define bodybuilding as staying lean and looking good nekkid for the entire course of their bodybuilding career (conveniently ignoring the fact that bodybuilders that actually compete get a little, lets say, husky, in the offseason)…personally, I call this “working out” and not “bodybuilding”, but hey, its not like I’m an exclusive Alpha Cell member!

But if ateenage kid gets on here looking to put on some muscle and look better, and wants advice on a “lean bulk”, that poster will get his work ethic and desire to really excel at this “sport” questioned…then he will be killed and eaten…

Some of these advice givers may even be the same person in both instances!!!

We have some real mental giants contributing here at T-Nation…thats for sure

65

I am saying he’s fat, and that nobody should get that fat, he’s not gaining optimally, if he wasn’t drinking a gallon of whole milk a day and eating shit he’d be leaner and have more muscle.I would never cut either if I felt I was getting fat, but I would make some adjustements to recomp.

People cannot be ignorant (not directed specifically at you Steely) about the the steroids in pro-bodybuilding, these guys are saucing a lot before contests and to think Lee wouldn’t be on some serious juice while he was cutting and apparently put on some size is foolish. Hence, that is a horrible example to compare to Arterm or even a lot of us nattys.

66

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Come on Steely, haven’t you learned the T-Nation definition of “bodybuilding” changes depending on which point the poster wants to make???

If you claim that getting a 15 year old kid strong and big by way of Starting Strength will eventually be good for his physique, some keyboard expert will define bodybuilding as staying lean and looking good nekkid for the entire course of their bodybuilding career (conveniently ignoring the fact that bodybuilders that actually compete get a little, lets say, husky, in the offseason)…personally, I call this “working out” and not “bodybuilding”, but hey, its not like I’m an exclusive Alpha Cell member!

But if ateenage kid gets on here looking to put on some muscle and look better, and wants advice on a “lean bulk”, that poster will get his work ethic and desire to really excel at this “sport” questioned…then he will be killed and eaten…

Some of these advice givers may even be the same person in both instances!!!

We have some real mental giants contributing here at T-Nation…thats for sure
[/quote]

And for the record, I was not calling out austin_bicep…I think he is one of the guys here making awesome progress and actually contributing to the site…just may be a bit misguided in this thread here…

My post was much more indicative of the overall state of T-Nation affairs.

67

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Does what make? getting fat or are we talking about arterm’s pic of a borderline obese dude with little to no muscle on him.

I don’t think getting fat is beneficial at all, if you get a little fat but it’s allowing for optimal growth than ok but I think the goal should be to stay as lean as possible while growing. Meaning once the point comes where you’re just gaining fat at it’s excessive you should lean up.

I almost remember reading Priest did that for a commercial or some shit. Plus he’s muscular under that fat and lastly probably upping the amount of juice he’s taking while leaning down. [/quote]

Your exact quote was:

So, what I’m asking is that had he (Artem) been equally ‘fat’ and had significantly higher lifts (indicating he’d produced some muscle under there) would you say the same?

I’m not defending Artem’s “bulk” per se-- at that one pic, he could have done some adjustments, especially given his low weights, but at the same time I say, if you’re gaining size and the lifts are increasing to match, then you’d be somewhat foolish to back off totally at that point (ie switch to ‘cut’ mode).
[/quote]

Come on Steely, haven’t you learned the T-Nation definition of “bodybuilding” changes depending on which point the poster wants to make???

If you claim that getting a 15 year old kid strong and big by way of Starting Strength will eventually be good for his physique, some keyboard expert will define bodybuilding as staying lean and looking good nekkid for the entire course of their bodybuilding career (conveniently ignoring the fact that bodybuilders that actually compete get a little, lets say, husky, in the offseason)…personally, I call this “working out” and not “bodybuilding”, but hey, its not like I’m an exclusive Alpha Cell member!

But if ateenage kid gets on here looking to put on some muscle and look better, and wants advice on a “lean bulk”, that poster will get his work ethic and desire to really excel at this “sport” questioned…then he will be killed and eaten…

Some of these advice givers may even be the same person in both instances!!!

We have some real mental giants contributing here at T-Nation…thats for sure
[/quote]

Husky is fine my friend, fat is not. that’s my point, he went way over board.

I don’t even like to give advice becuase I’ll get ripped for it, so I kind of do my own thing per say and let the results speak for me.

68

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
I am saying he’s fat, and that nobody should get that fat, he’s not gaining optimally, if he wasn’t drinking a gallon of whole milk a day and eating shit he’d be leaner and have more muscle.I would never cut either if I felt I was getting fat, but I would make some adjustements to recomp.
[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t think he was training hard enough. Kid that age with the propensity to gain weight should be able to ‘grow into’ that fat (and clean up his diet), but I don’t think cutting was the answer. Manning up on some serious weightlifting maybe.

I just think this whole fat phobia and giving a goddamm what anyone thinks is placing a limit on growth-- and this comes from someone who was fatty fat fat and leaned up. This is also the reason I’m ever reluctant to post pics. I’m not a teenager and if I were paralyzed by worrying about gaining fat, my lifts and growth would be stagnant. I’m probably considered obese on these boards, but I also don’t really give a flying fuck either.

69

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
His strength gains sucked if I recall correctly. He wasn’t squatting above 225 or something stupid like that.[/quote]

Yeah and his bench was under 250. When you can’t bench or squat your own body weight you know something went wrong.[/quote]

So, curious-- if he was benching 315, squatting 400, etc etc then would he have been OK?[/quote]

Yea, I think he would’ve been a lot better off. But he also most likely would’ve looked different. From his pic alone, I couldn’t judge exactly how much muscle he is carrying under all that fat. But his lifts give a much better idea. No one with a decent amount of muscle on them is squatting 225 or benching 80 lbs dumbells if they’re healthy. Especially with 30" legs and 18" arms. When you include the fact that he gained 100 lbs of body weight in that one year, it all points to mostly fat gain. He’s just fortunate that his body spreads his fat out evenly around his body. I admit I am envious of that.

70

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
I am saying he’s fat, and that nobody should get that fat, he’s not gaining optimally, if he wasn’t drinking a gallon of whole milk a day and eating shit he’d be leaner and have more muscle.I would never cut either if I felt I was getting fat, but I would make some adjustements to recomp.
[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t think he was training hard enough. Kid that age with the propensity to gain weight should be able to ‘grow into’ that fat (and clean up his diet), but I don’t think cutting was the answer. Manning up on some serious weightlifting maybe.

I just think this whole fat phobia and giving a goddamm what anyone thinks is placing a limit on growth-- and this comes from someone who was fatty fat fat and leaned up. This is also the reason I’m ever reluctant to post pics. I’m not a teenager and if I were paralyzed by worrying about gaining fat, my lifts and growth would be stagnant. I’m probably considered obese on these boards, but I also don’t really give a flying fuck either.[/quote]

I agree with the above mayne.

I just speak from being a newb at one point myself, and I think a lot of people here bulk and think let’s eat everything in site, it’s ok to get fat, yadda yadda. Yeah you’ll put on some excess fat when bulking up, no big deal but when the fat starts to outshine the muscle you have a problem.

I look at it this way, if you are gaining a lot of excess fat you are eating too much. You have already used the calories you would need to use to repair your muscles, now everything else is extra and adding chunk. Why would someone want that is beyond me I don’t think it’s that hard to remain relatively lean and gain muscle. Relatively lean defined by me, is still looking like you lift weights, being able to see muscle groups clearly even if they aren’t striated and all veiny and defined…

Whatever though

71

[quote]forbes wrote:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/blog_sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_alpha/lets_clear_some_stuff_up[/quote]

Just read this cover to cover, excellent thread, lots of antics but some really good discussion in between. Had a personal breakthrough reading it. Thanks for posting it.

72

I agree with both Steely D and Austin_bicep on some levels.

You have to bulk within your own “genetic range”.

If you have a tendency to hold fat easy (and it’s not because of very poor diet/training), then you should bulk with a higher level of bodyfat. In other words, if you really have to push your body to the limits in order to keep at say 13-15%, then to try and bulk within the 8-12% bodyfat range (i.e. cut down to 8% every time you reach 12%) wouldn’t be effective IMO.

Whereas, if you have a tendency to stay lean, then you should bulk with less bodyfat (e.g. 8-12%…or whatever the point of diminishing returns is).

I believe what Austin_bicep says is very true about the natty thing; natties can’t afford to bulk excessively. The hormone profile gets far too screwed up when fat levels get out of hand. If you continue bulking at a certain level of fat (which for me is around 15-18%), your fat to muscle gaining ratios switch over (you gain more fat compared to muscle despite calories/training staying constant). There’s a point where the fatter you get, the more fat you gain. It can even get to the point where you’re gaining nothing but fat each week if your training isn’t 100% (likely what happened with Artem).

The thing with Artem is, he definitely would have done better with a higher focus on intensity. And when he realised that he was adding an inch to his waist almost every month, that should have raised alarm bells in his head to lower the calories a little (and/or lower carbs + increase protein).

73

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I agree with both Steely D and Austin_bicep on some levels.

You have to bulk within your own “genetic range”.

If you have a tendency to hold fat easy (and it’s not because of very poor diet/training), then you should bulk with a higher level of bodyfat. In other words, if you really have to push your body to the limits in order to keep at say 13-15%, then to try and bulk within the 8-12% bodyfat range (i.e. cut down to 8% every time you reach 12%) wouldn’t be effective IMO.

Whereas, if you have a tendency to stay lean, then you should bulk with less bodyfat (e.g. 8-12%…or whatever the point of diminishing returns is).

I believe what Austin_bicep says is very true about the natty thing; natties can’t afford to bulk excessively. The hormone profile gets far too screwed up when fat levels get out of hand. If you continue bulking at a certain level of fat (which for me is around 15-18%), your fat to muscle gaining ratios switch over (you gain more fat compared to muscle despite calories/training staying constant). There’s a point where the fatter you get, the more fat you gain. It can even get to the point where you’re gaining nothing but fat each week if your training isn’t 100% (likely what happened with Artem).

The thing with Artem is, he definitely would have done better with a higher focus on intensity. And when he realised that he was adding an inch to his waist almost every month, that should have raised alarm bells in his head to lower the calories a little (and/or lower carbs + increase protein).[/quote]

I can’t say I can definitely explain it but sometimes it almost seems as if I gain better with less fat as I get fatter. As if my body initially when lean focuses on putting back fat to get into it’s “comfort zone” and then once there can put on muscle a little better. I wouldn’t say I know this for sure but around last year at the end of my bulk I was my fattest but
gained ~6lb with minuscule amounts of fat gain…yet now being leaner I’ve gained over an inch on my waist for ~7lb gain in weight :confused:

74

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
I am saying he’s fat, and that nobody should get that fat, he’s not gaining optimally, if he wasn’t drinking a gallon of whole milk a day and eating shit he’d be leaner and have more muscle.I would never cut either if I felt I was getting fat, but I would make some adjustements to recomp.
[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t think he was training hard enough. Kid that age with the propensity to gain weight should be able to ‘grow into’ that fat (and clean up his diet), but I don’t think cutting was the answer. Manning up on some serious weightlifting maybe.

I just think this whole fat phobia and giving a goddamm what anyone thinks is placing a limit on growth-- and this comes from someone who was fatty fat fat and leaned up. This is also the reason I’m ever reluctant to post pics. I’m not a teenager and if I were paralyzed by worrying about gaining fat, my lifts and growth would be stagnant. I’m probably considered obese on these boards, but I also don’t really give a flying fuck either.[/quote]

I agree with the above mayne.

I just speak from being a newb at one point myself, and I think a lot of people here bulk and think let’s eat everything in site, it’s ok to get fat, yadda yadda. Yeah you’ll put on some excess fat when bulking up, no big deal but when the fat starts to outshine the muscle you have a problem.

I look at it this way, if you are gaining a lot of excess fat you are eating too much. You have already used the calories you would need to use to repair your muscles, now everything else is extra and adding chunk. Why would someone want that is beyond me I don’t think it’s that hard to remain relatively lean and gain muscle. Relatively lean defined by me, is still looking like you lift weights, being able to see muscle groups clearly even if they aren’t striated and all veiny and defined…

Whatever though[/quote]

Definately not saying you were fat. But there was a point where you were (Austin)a little heavier (in terms of fat) but those were definately necessary to be where you were at. Like most who have gotten big (not myself currently), have gained more than their fair share of fat to get to a certain level.

If, for example, artem had not injured himself, had trained a little harder, and cleaned his diet up whilst being at that weight, and NOT dieted whilst not training, i think things may have been a little different. Im hoping he’s learnt and he’s training harder.

Im not defending his whole approach but anyone who has the balls to gain 100lbs in a year at so young, whilst also successfully cutting all of the fat, although not maintaining much (if any) muscle, has to be commended (sorta…) just for doing it and sticking to it either way. His thread was interesting to say the least.

75

[quote]pro-a-ggression wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
I am saying he’s fat, and that nobody should get that fat, he’s not gaining optimally, if he wasn’t drinking a gallon of whole milk a day and eating shit he’d be leaner and have more muscle.I would never cut either if I felt I was getting fat, but I would make some adjustements to recomp.
[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t think he was training hard enough. Kid that age with the propensity to gain weight should be able to ‘grow into’ that fat (and clean up his diet), but I don’t think cutting was the answer. Manning up on some serious weightlifting maybe.

I just think this whole fat phobia and giving a goddamm what anyone thinks is placing a limit on growth-- and this comes from someone who was fatty fat fat and leaned up. This is also the reason I’m ever reluctant to post pics. I’m not a teenager and if I were paralyzed by worrying about gaining fat, my lifts and growth would be stagnant. I’m probably considered obese on these boards, but I also don’t really give a flying fuck either.[/quote]

I agree with the above mayne.

I just speak from being a newb at one point myself, and I think a lot of people here bulk and think let’s eat everything in site, it’s ok to get fat, yadda yadda. Yeah you’ll put on some excess fat when bulking up, no big deal but when the fat starts to outshine the muscle you have a problem.

I look at it this way, if you are gaining a lot of excess fat you are eating too much. You have already used the calories you would need to use to repair your muscles, now everything else is extra and adding chunk. Why would someone want that is beyond me I don’t think it’s that hard to remain relatively lean and gain muscle. Relatively lean defined by me, is still looking like you lift weights, being able to see muscle groups clearly even if they aren’t striated and all veiny and defined…

Whatever though[/quote]

Definately not saying you were fat. But there was a point where you were (Austin)a little heavier (in terms of fat) but those were definately necessary to be where you were at. Like most who have gotten big (not myself currently), have gained more than their fair share of fat to get to a certain level.

If, for example, artem had not injured himself, had trained a little harder, and cleaned his diet up whilst being at that weight, and NOT dieted whilst not training, i think things may have been a little different. Im hoping he’s learnt and he’s training harder.

Im not defending his whole approach but anyone who has the balls to gain 100lbs in a year at so young, whilst also successfully cutting all of the fat, although not maintaining much (if any) muscle, has to be commended (sorta…) just for doing it and sticking to it either way. His thread was interesting to say the least. [/quote]

That’s the thing, I was fat and it was unecessary, we live and we learn but I don’t want people making my mistakes. I would have been better today if I concentrated more on quality over quantity. I am making the best gains of my life and it was when I left that approach behind. When I was fat it was like a big 6 month plateau on size and strength gains…it was frusturating, I am glad shit clicks now.

76

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
I can’t say I can definitely explain it but sometimes it almost seems as if I gain better with less fat as I get fatter. As if my body initially when lean focuses on putting back fat to get into it’s “comfort zone” and then once there can put on muscle a little better. I wouldn’t say I know this for sure but around last year at the end of my bulk I was my fattest but
gained ~6lb with minuscule amounts of fat gain…yet now being leaner I’ve gained over an inch on my waist for ~7lb gain in weight :confused: [/quote]

That’s kind of what I meant by your own “genetic range”.

Some people need to really restrict calories to stay pretty lean. For these ones, their body will fight to add the fat back on until a certain level has been reached again (like homeostasis, their bodies comfort zone)…so by constantly leaning out every time they get to a low fat level limit (which will happen quickly if they fought to get lean), they’re holding themselves back…rather than simply getting into their bodies “comfort fat level zone” (setting the fat bar higher) and gaining from there.

These ones would be better off staying in the higher % fat range while gaining (e.g. ~15% bodyfat).

77

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

That’s the thing, I was fat and it was unecessary, we live and we learn but I don’t want people making my mistakes. I would have been better today if I concentrated more on quality over quantity. I am making the best gains of my life and it was when I left that approach behind. When I was fat it was like a big 6 month plateau on size and strength gains…it was frusturating, I am glad shit clicks now.[/quote]

And thats what ya wanna hear. Ive always enjoyed watching ur progress, especially when ppl said BK arms and now youve proved theyre not. Nice work. Wat they measuring these days?

78

[quote]pro-a-ggression wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

That’s the thing, I was fat and it was unecessary, we live and we learn but I don’t want people making my mistakes. I would have been better today if I concentrated more on quality over quantity. I am making the best gains of my life and it was when I left that approach behind. When I was fat it was like a big 6 month plateau on size and strength gains…it was frusturating, I am glad shit clicks now.[/quote]

And thats what ya wanna hear. Ive always enjoyed watching ur progress, especially whenU ppl said BK arms and now youve proved theyre not. Nice work. Wat they measuring these days? [/quote]

Like 18 man but at a 34-36 inch waste they’re much larger than my 40+ inch self.

79

[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:
I trained with Josh86, Dirty Gerdy, HolyMacaroni, and DOHCrazy r u jelosu[/quote]

So jelly.