Arms Growing, Not Back and Chest

[quote]004 wrote:
my apologies for being unclear with my original post, and for wasting everyone’s time posting such a ridiculous question. it serves as an unpleasant reminder why i don’t waste time on bodybuilding forums. i’m a newb to bodybuilding, and believe it or not, there’s other ways to train. ‘getting big’ isn’t everyone’s holy grail, and it sits way down on my list of priorities.

for me, functional strength, cardio conditioning, speed and flexibility far outweigh anything else, and as a competitive grappler, getting big would be a detriment to my lifestyle.

so overall, bodybuilding has very little value to me. however, i do have a small amount of interest in appearance, being a physically fit 30 something male, so i thought a question concerning hypertrophy would be best fitted for this forum. i was obviously mistaken, as my physical specs aren’t up to par, but i’ll give this another go.

despite burning a ton of calories via 1 conditioning or strength workout per day and 2 hours of brazilian jiu jitsu, i eat close to 5000 cal per day, and believe there’s still a slight surplus, which i measure only by appearance. as of recently (the past year or so) my weight has stayed roughly the same as i’ve gotten leaner, so for my sport, i believe i’m on the right track. i’ve followed John Berardi’s nutritional advice through the years very closely, so i also believe my macronutrients to be somewhat in order.

the only experience i had with bodybuilding was when i first started lifting, fresh out of high school, for 5 or 6 years on and off. mostly on. without much internet, i didn’t really have a source of information, and not many people i knew who were experienced / big enough to answer my questions. needless to say, there was a whole lot of wasted time.

@Cephalic_Carnage: being a personal trainer means i passed the ace exam. now how is that relevant to my post? thank you for the small bit of constructive advice, though. i’m currently trying to refine my pressing technique. today on flat i hit 255 for 5 reps, 3rd set, no spot. please keep in mind this is just a hobby, somewhat contradictory to my main goals.

and speaking of rows, i’m actually doing more pull-ups than anything else. do you think i should institute more rows? i often do a 2-3 sets of db rows @ 110, sometimes on a plate loaded machine at my gym.
[/quote] Some rows or rack pulls/floor deads or some such would probably do your back some good.
No need for crazy volume or anything, just get very strong on them for 5+ reps…
When rowing, keep your biceps out as much as you can. Initiate the movement with the back.

As for pressing… Chest high, scapulae retracted… Stay tight! I prefer to keep my elbows at 45 degrees or whatever from the body, all the way out is just terrible on the shoulders in my case…
In any event your rear-delts never leave the bench. Some arching is perfectly fine and helps to keep the shoulders down properly…
If you still have trouble, avoid lockout and just do the bottom half of ROM… Some like to not touch their chest, you could try that, too.
Someone bumped an old thread with branch warren training vids recently… Go have a look at some of his chest training vids.

Also, many who have trouble with free-weight movements for chest like the HammerStrength range of machines… The lying isolateral flat press or whatever it’s called is nice, may need to put plates under the lever arms though so you can start a tad higher.

Well, posting this in the beginners section may have been a little smarter, just saying.

[quote]Dave_ wrote:

LOL.

OP - why would size hurt your grappling ability? E.g. Who would you put your money on, a 200lb grappler or a 300lb grappler?

[/quote]

I assumed there was a weight class he was trying to make. Although if it’s not full MMA and there’s no face punching to worry about, I would just trust that I could gain enough size/strength to go up to the next one if I had to. It could only help at open weight too.

Stop brothers, he could kick our ass.

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
Stop brothers, he could kick our ass.[/quote]

Damn it…I forgot. Mortal enemies.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
MEYMZ wrote:
Stop brothers, he could kick our ass.

Damn it…I forgot. Mortal enemies.[/quote]

We better get on MMA training, these days can be risky for bodybuilders.

warning: wall.

[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
You provided very little information in your initial post about what you’re lifting, how long you’ve actually been focussing on trying to add mass, and what improvements you may have made. You’re original post came across as a very half-assed person, more than likely just a troll.

Why are you surprised at the response?

Read some of Christian Thib’s articles on weight training for beginners, they tend to be recommended by most because they work. Your line about functional strength etc makes me think you’re just a troll and a wind-up. If you’re not serious, why should anyone here be?
[/quote]

i read and reread the post and still don’t see how it appears half-assed. i thought it to be a pretty straight forward question. again, haven’t really posted on this forum before, and wasn’t aware of the format. didn’t know you needed my training background or logged progress before answering a question.

i’m familiar with thibaudeau, and i’ll check it out. thanks.
and i meant functional to my sport. ‘skinny-strong’ is what some of us non-bodybuilding grappling wussies tend to strive for. size is normally undesirable. and you can be helpful without calling names, but glad to see you discovered a new word.

[quote]LUEshi wrote:
I’m confused.

Are you focused on bodybuilding or are you just training with weights in addition to competitive BJJ?

If it’s the former, then there’s a host of valuable information at your fingertips via articles and forum members (Prof X, GB and C_C in particular). IMO weight gain will be necessary in addition to focusing on increasing strength in the 4-8 rep range on the bench press and other major lifts if you want real mass gains. At your height, weight and bodyfat % 165-175 lean would be a worthy goal. Start with a light enough weight so that you can feel your chest and back working. Experiment with bar position, tempo, whether or not to use rest-pause or a conventional rep scheme and other variables to see what hits your chest and back best. Most of all, eat your food and lift. Progress will come.

If it’s the latter, then a simple 5x5 will do fine, I should think. Particularly if you don’t want to move up in weight classes. Members in the Combat Sports forum should be able to offer additional guidance if you need more sport-specific training.[/quote]

i’m training with weights quite a bit and have been for a while. barbells, dumbells, sandbags, x-vest, and most often, kettlebells. to be honest, just scratching the surface of bodybuilding, because most of my body has developed nicely over the years (in my own humble opinion), and i’m looking to touch up parts that have lagged because they’ve been partially ignored.

i’ve been doing 5x5 on and off for a little while now to stay as strong as possible (not just for bjj), but i’ll take the rest into consideration, thank you for the help.

[quote]DON D1ESEL wrote:
OP: Might have saved yourself some grief by mentioning these things sooner.

What does a grappling athlete need with a large/strong chest (specifically) anyway? If you’re not lifting for aesthetics as you asserted, then all that matters is being strong or well conditioned in movements. If, then, you’re weak of the bottom of horizontal pressing movements, that’s an entirely different question (belonging in a different section of the board) than ‘how do I bring my chest up when my arms dominate the movement?’ [/quote]

it doesn’t. that’s my point. i haven’t trained it much in the past, as i hadn’t been interested in growing a specific muscle group. i have recently, however, been trying to ‘wake-up’ my chest, because when i press a heavy weight, my arms and shoulders (which have developed pretty well comparatively) get fatigued and my chest doesn’t feel touched. i made the half serious comment about being 30 and wanting to look good on the beach.

[quote]DON D1ESEL wrote:
As for your need: easiest solution is to give your chest some frequency. Throw in a few high(er) rep sets of an accessory chest movement (dips/pushups/flyes) at the end of your other workouts a few times a week. Lean forward and descend further on dips. Widen your hand placement on pressing lifts and try keeping palms facing each other on dumbbell lifts (and you may even consider variations in which you lower the bar to a higher spot on your chest…just be cognizant of your shoulders and elbows).

Consider paused reps. Consider decline pressing (and in that vein, low pulley cable crosses). You could also choose to pre-exhaust the triceps prior to doing your primary chest lift e.g. a few sets of heavy close grip or military press would take the starch out of your tri’s before going to a heavy pyramid (or whatever) on incline. Lots of options; somewhere in there is something that will help you.

If this is helpful, we can go through similar options for back lifts.[/quote]

this is extremely helpful. i worked chest last the day i posted this. i started the workout with fairly light db presses straight from the chest as an activation exercise of sorts. finished with fast tempo push-ups. first time my chest has been sore since i can remember. i’ll give some of the above a try. thanks.

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
OP - why would size hurt your grappling ability? E.g. Who would you put your money on, a 200lb grappler or a 300lb grappler?

To give you a serious answer; you need to add overall mass. Sorry, but I feel silly giving anyone advice on how to fine-tune certain bodyparts whilst they still weigh as little as you do.

Pics would help a lot. IF you post some we can see what you are really talking about. There are some very effective options for back/chest training which don’t particularly involve the arms. I know because I’ve had to use them.[/quote]

because if i want to add a decent amount of size, i’d have to be a little lenient with bodyfat, and if i’m not very lean for competition, there’s wasted weight, and i’m not as strong as i can be. does that make sense at all? i’ll try to get some pics up during the week. warning: chest is even smaller than the rest of me, and i have no lower lats to speak of.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Some rows or rack pulls/floor deads or some such would probably do your back some good.
No need for crazy volume or anything, just get very strong on them for 5+ reps…
When rowing, keep your biceps out as much as you can. Initiate the movement with the back.

As for pressing… Chest high, scapulae retracted… Stay tight! I prefer to keep my elbows at 45 degrees or whatever from the body, all the way out is just terrible on the shoulders in my case…
In any event your rear-delts never leave the bench. Some arching is perfectly fine and helps to keep the shoulders down properly…
If you still have trouble, avoid lockout and just do the bottom half of ROM… Some like to not touch their chest, you could try that, too.
Someone bumped an old thread with branch warren training vids recently… Go have a look at some of his chest training vids.[/quote]

thanks for the tips and i’ll check out that vid. the recent dave tate vid posted reinforced a little what i’ve been trying to do with my form. i’ve been working on deadlifts a-lot lately. my legs were much weaker than my upper body a year or so ago, so i’ve added an extra lower body day. with the rows, do you mean leave elbows out of the equation (mentally), or keep them away from my body? i’m assuming you mean the former.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Well, posting this in the beginners section may have been a little smarter, just saying.
[/quote]

you know, i didn’t even realize there was one until you posted that. guess i deserve the heat i’m getting for posting here.

[quote]MODOK wrote:
All joking aside, CT wrote an entire training article of training for “arm dominant and torso dominant” developers. Try to find it.[/quote]

might be the best advice so far. thanks again.

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
Stop brothers, he could kick our ass.[/quote]

Wait. Bodybuilder types have one collective ass? No wonder they always kick it so badly, if you all had your own individual asses, it would be easier to hide from them!

[quote]004 wrote:
warning: wall.
i read and reread the post and still don’t see how it appears half-assed. i thought it to be a pretty straight forward question. again, haven’t really posted on this forum before, and wasn’t aware of the format. didn’t know you needed my training background or logged progress before answering a question.

i’m familiar with thibaudeau, and i’ll check it out. thanks.
and i meant functional to my sport. ‘skinny-strong’ is what some of us non-bodybuilding grappling wussies tend to strive for. size is normally undesirable. and you can be helpful without calling names, but glad to see you discovered a new word.
[/quote]

Half-assed post = stupid, nothing question that doesn’t mesh with someone with as much experience training as you state + obvious lack of searching anything on this site for your answer first.

‘skinny-strong’ = why the fuck are you posting on a bodybuilding forum?

I’ve discovered another word too, really like it and sums things up nicely. FAIL. This means you. You do realize there is a whole forum on combat sports with other grappling wussies that can help you out?

If you are actually serious about building mass in the chest, like I said before, cut all the other training out and focus on the tin for a while. See if you make progress, if not look for technique corrections and exercise variations such as the other really helpful guys here have posted for you.

And since we’re on this topic, there is nothing fucking wrong with adding mass in a combat sport context!! Several guys I’ve helped out are extremely happy with the bulk they’ve added, even if they’ve jumped a weight class.

Why? (and I’ll number this to help you out)

  1. They like they way they look with a bit more muscle on the shoulders/arms/chest

  2. They knock people the fuck out!!!

If you are actually doing your sport specific training and doing that right, and properly incorporate weight lifting in, you’ll be…doing whatever the hell grappling wussies do to each other on the mat alot more efficiently.

[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
And since we’re on this topic, there is nothing fucking wrong with adding mass in a combat sport context!! Several guys I’ve helped out are extremely happy with the bulk they’ve added, even if they’ve jumped a weight class.

Why? (and I’ll number this to help you out)

  1. They like they way they look with a bit more muscle on the shoulders/arms/chest

  2. They knock people the fuck out!!!

If you are actually doing your sport specific training and doing that right, and properly incorporate weight lifting in, you’ll be…doing whatever the hell grappling wussies do to each other on the mat alot more efficiently.[/quote]

so more size = more knockout power? people like anderson silva and lyoto machida must have it all wrong. if they only knew how not to be wussies. thanks for the numbers, though, and the exclamation points. i wasn’t asking for help with my knockout power, i was asking how to hit my chest and back more on lifts rather than my arms. which i believed to be bodybuilding-related question. i’m currently doing a ton of ‘weight lifting’ for stregth, and i’m larger and stronger than every single one of my opponents in tournament so far. if i want to take it to that next level, though, i’ll come directly to you.

[quote]DON D1ESEL wrote:

I assumed there was a weight class he was trying to make. Although if it’s not full MMA and there’s no face punching to worry about, I would just trust that I could gain enough size/strength to go up to the next one if I had to. It could only help at open weight too.[/quote]

hijack

Holy Shit

Welcome Back DON nice to see you posting again

carry on.

[quote]004 wrote:
GluteusGigantis wrote:
And since we’re on this topic, there is nothing fucking wrong with adding mass in a combat sport context!! Several guys I’ve helped out are extremely happy with the bulk they’ve added, even if they’ve jumped a weight class.

Why? (and I’ll number this to help you out)

  1. They like they way they look with a bit more muscle on the shoulders/arms/chest

  2. They knock people the fuck out!!!

If you are actually doing your sport specific training and doing that right, and properly incorporate weight lifting in, you’ll be…doing whatever the hell grappling wussies do to each other on the mat alot more efficiently.

so more size = more knockout power? people like anderson silva and lyoto machida must have it all wrong.
[/quote]

Is this a serious question?

So, you’re actually suggesting that HW’s don’t have more KO power than featherweights?

Take C_C’s advice about form in order to better activate the chest.

For back movements, focus on pulling with your elbows, not your hands.

focus more on your form.
ur using ur arms to much in your exercises.

I once heard a mythical story about a machine in a gym far, far away called the Pec-deck…

OP: It’s not ideal for gaining mass/strength quickly, but it will keep you from getting fat if that’s a concern. Raise total calories slowly (as little as 100 per 2 weeks if that’s what feels safe), and shift more calories to your post-workout shake and meal (preferably within 60-90min of finishing). If the rest of your diet is in order, there are a few recovery-focused supps you could consider at that time (I’m not talking about creatine or NO-XPLODE, so don’t). Although if you were really interested in moving up, it makes more sense to take a small sabbatical from competing so that nothing will inhibit (a) putting on lean mass with maximal gains in strength and (b) maintaining your present standards for cardio and flexibility as you do (a). It will be difficult.

For some reason I’m having trouble marshaling my thoughts on back exercises. Maybe it’s because I have short arms and chronically neglect direct bicep work, so I have never had this problem. Sorry, dude. Maybe someone else can step up until I figure out what I need to say about my approach to back day.

004-- You would have saved yourself a lot of trouble by simply telling us you were a competitive grappler and had a weightclass limit for competition in your original post. I took the time to read the whole thread so I know that now, but my first mental reaction to your post was “quit crying and eat some fucking food you lightweight”. Your OP did come off pretty half-assed if you’re just a regular joe with no competitive background.

People here do in fact understand weight class restrictions, needing to carry as much muscle into a class and still make weight, etc.

People in the specifically named “bodybuilding” forum get pretty frustrated with guys such as yourself asking questions like this if they aren’t made aware that the person has specific limitations via competition or handicap or whatever. There are a lot of people who ask similar questions who have no concept of the fundamentals, and besides that this particular forum seems to attract a lot of trolls and antagonists.

As far as the functional strength nonsense, it is self evident that all other things being equal the man with more mass will have more power behind his punch. But there is a “combat sports” forum for people wanting to talk fighting.

As for your problem, in addition to looking up the Thibaudeau “arm dominant” training article, you should look into pre-exhaust and post-exhaust for your chest. Pressing movements are in general much more tricep dominant for those with long arms. These people tend to get less chest stimulation out of benching and need more direct work on the chest IN ADDITION to the regular heavy pressing. Same thing with back–technique comes into play because many people initiate the movements of rowing and chin-ups with their arms. Work on getting a good stretch on your back and then starting the movement from the back, not the elbows.

And yes, you probably want to row more. Definitely more than 2-3 sets. I’ve found that once a certain threshold is reached in terms of chin-up numbers, you really get more from rowing. You could also add external weight to your chins too. But IMHO rows are much better for mid-back thickness and that certain “look”. dumbbell and barbell work is preferable for heavy rowing over plate loaded machines. The machines are useful for overall volume work, and also when your low back is heavily fatigued from deads/squats/grappling practice, but if one is fresh then dumbbell and barbell work is preferable. Or T-bar rows.

And C_C is correct—rack pulls and heavy deads do great things for your back.

Seated Flexed Arm Cable Chest Flyes in which you cross your arms at the end of the movement and hold the contraction for a second. Bend the elbows quite a bit…so that it’s not what you’d call a normal flye. Choose whatever rep/set scheme you wish, I’d say 4 sets of 8-12. If you can’t feel your chest after that exercise then just cut your arms off because they must be 8feet long.

“Feeling the back” is mostly about form. In your rows and pulldowns you should come to full extension so that the scapulas spread apart then start the movement by engaging the scaps and pulling them either back (rows) or down (pulldowns). As you come into the finish of the movement keep your elbows into your ribs. If nothing else, do an isolation like a pullover or straight arm pulldown.

Try this variation of a straight arm pulldown: Single Arm Kneeling high cable straight arm pulldown. Perform as it sounds. Or try the same kneeling pulldown, but lean forward at the beginning of the movement to get as much of a stretch as possible, pulldown, then lean back up as you squeeze and press the bar into your thighs, then return to starting position.

[quote]004 wrote:

for me, functional strength, cardio conditioning, speed and flexibility far outweigh anything else, and as a competitive grappler, getting big would be a detriment to my lifestyle.

[/quote]

Functional strength…I LOL’D.

[quote]004 wrote:

for me, functional strength, cardio conditioning, speed and flexibility far outweigh anything else, and as a competitive grappler, getting big would be a detriment to my lifestyle.

[/quote]

If getting big would be detrimental to your ‘lifestyle’, why are you asking for advice on getting bigger? That seems very counter-productive. Seems like you are asking for help when you don’t want to do what is required to achieve it. Also, if functional strength, cardio, speed and flexibility FAR outweigh anything else…what does it matter how you look on the beach?

just my .02