[quote]getfast24 wrote:
I also find it quite arrogant of people to think that no teenager could be disciplined in the gym and in training. While i think it is rare, there are certainly a number of teenager who train very seriously. I think it is arrogant to make broad statements about teenagers not training hard enough or making enough progress to take AAS.
[/quote]
I said 95% for a reason. Theres a difference between arrogance and reality.
[quote]getfast24 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
I think you are slightly misunderstanding what many of us are trying to say.
It is not necessarily the long term side effects on the HPTA that is the biggest concern, but the short term effects on an undeveloped HPTA that may have negative effects later on. The biggest side effect that comes to mind is an improperly functioning HPTA.
I feel it is much safer and more responsible to experiment with a developed HPTA than an undeveloped one.
Is is possible to do permanent damage to the HPTA at the age of (for arguments sake) 30? Probably.
Is it more likely to do damage to the HPTA at the age of 18 (compared to 30)? I’d say the answer is most likely yes. Or else EVERY SANE PERSON INVOLVED WITH AAS wouldn’t agree. I’m not saying you are insane BTW, just there are some crazies out there.
No one can say for sure what is definately going to happen in any single case, but it is important to make generalizations so people understand WHY everyone says that AAS are a risky move for young people.
im understand exactly what you are saying, but my point is that just because a bunch of people have decided that they believe that the HTPA is more stable once developed, and that that development is a direct function of age (even after puberty ends), doesnt have scientific backing. I am not saying i think you are wrong necessarily, all I am saying is that the research is simply not there to determine the long term side effects of AAS on the HPTA (or almost anything for that matter) so it bothers me to see everyone everywhere brining up arbitrary dates and ages at which the HPTA is mature enough to use AAS, when all it comes down to is the poster’s opinion.
I also find it quite arrogant of people to think that no teenager could be disciplined in the gym and in training. While i think it is rare, there are certainly a number of teenager who train very seriously. I think it is arrogant to make broad statements about teenagers not training hard enough or making enough progress to take AAS.
[/quote]
I dont think its an unwise decision at all to give people a “finish line” or date at which AAS use is acceptable.
Bottom line is this, by 21-23 your HPTA is mature.
Could you safely use steroids earlier ? probably.
Is it possible for the average person, or even any one but an endocrinologist to determine this ? no not really.
Its a safety factor, if your tires are rated for 100 miles an hour, but in reality they were designed to go 150, it is HIGHLY unlikely that they will ever fail at 100.
Its done with EVERYTHING in engineering, every bridge, building, road, appliance, everything is stronger than its rating claims.
That way it will almost never fail at that rating, even if there is a slight defect in the product.
If we tell everyone, “wait till your 22”, even if they are mature enough at 20, they aren’t going to hurt anything by waiting. And our blanket statement more or less secures their safety at a time when the decision to use AAS is incredibly tempting, and their ability to weigh future consequences isnt what it should be.
Besides if the “hypothetical” “mature” teenager is really so “mature” they wouldn’t be wanting to use steroids early in the first place if they knew there was an increased risk at that age. They would be too “mature” to make such a brash decision.
[quote]Westclock wrote:
getfast24 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
I think you are slightly misunderstanding what many of us are trying to say.
It is not necessarily the long term side effects on the HPTA that is the biggest concern, but the short term effects on an undeveloped HPTA that may have negative effects later on. The biggest side effect that comes to mind is an improperly functioning HPTA.
I feel it is much safer and more responsible to experiment with a developed HPTA than an undeveloped one.
Is is possible to do permanent damage to the HPTA at the age of (for arguments sake) 30? Probably.
Is it more likely to do damage to the HPTA at the age of 18 (compared to 30)? I’d say the answer is most likely yes. Or else EVERY SANE PERSON INVOLVED WITH AAS wouldn’t agree. I’m not saying you are insane BTW, just there are some crazies out there.
No one can say for sure what is definately going to happen in any single case, but it is important to make generalizations so people understand WHY everyone says that AAS are a risky move for young people.
im understand exactly what you are saying, but my point is that just because a bunch of people have decided that they believe that the HTPA is more stable once developed, and that that development is a direct function of age (even after puberty ends), doesnt have scientific backing. I am not saying i think you are wrong necessarily, all I am saying is that the research is simply not there to determine the long term side effects of AAS on the HPTA (or almost anything for that matter) so it bothers me to see everyone everywhere brining up arbitrary dates and ages at which the HPTA is mature enough to use AAS, when all it comes down to is the poster’s opinion.
I also find it quite arrogant of people to think that no teenager could be disciplined in the gym and in training. While i think it is rare, there are certainly a number of teenager who train very seriously. I think it is arrogant to make broad statements about teenagers not training hard enough or making enough progress to take AAS.
I dont think its an unwise decision at all to give people a “finish line” or date at which AAS use is acceptable.
Bottom line is this, by 21-23 your HPTA is mature.
Could you safely use steroids earlier ? probably.
Is it possible for the average person, or even any one but an endocrinologist to determine this ? no not really.
Its a safety factor, if your tires are rated for 100 miles an hour, but in reality they were designed to go 150, it is HIGHLY unlikely that they will ever fail at 100.
Its done with EVERYTHING in engineering, every bridge, building, road, appliance, everything is stronger than its rating claims.
That way it will almost never fail at that rating, even if there is a slight defect in the product.
If we tell everyone, “wait till your 22”, even if they are mature enough at 20, they aren’t going to hurt anything by waiting. And our blanket statement more or less secures their safety at a time when the decision to use AAS is incredibly tempting, and their ability to weigh future consequences isnt what it should be.
Besides if the “hypothetical” “mature” teenager is really so “mature” they wouldn’t be wanting to use steroids early in the first place if they knew there was an increased risk at that age. They would be too “mature” to make such a brash decision.[/quote]
in response to your last comment: i disagree completely. They did a study where they asked athletes if they would be willing to take a drug that would allow them to become elite and successful in the sport, but would die in 5 years. And most of them said they would take it.
In response to a mature HPTA, im still waiting to see the data that correlates a slightly (or very) immature HPTA to short and long term side effects.
Everyone keeps jumping ahead and assuming that using AAS on an immature HPTA is terrible, and I believe that you all are jumping ahead of the science. Where is the data to support these suspicions? I believe it is a myth that has propagated so long and far that all of these otherwise scientific people to make non scientific assumptions.
[quote]getfast24 wrote:
Westclock wrote:
getfast24 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
I think you are slightly misunderstanding what many of us are trying to say.
It is not necessarily the long term side effects on the HPTA that is the biggest concern, but the short term effects on an undeveloped HPTA that may have negative effects later on. The biggest side effect that comes to mind is an improperly functioning HPTA.
I feel it is much safer and more responsible to experiment with a developed HPTA than an undeveloped one.
Is is possible to do permanent damage to the HPTA at the age of (for arguments sake) 30? Probably.
Is it more likely to do damage to the HPTA at the age of 18 (compared to 30)? I’d say the answer is most likely yes. Or else EVERY SANE PERSON INVOLVED WITH AAS wouldn’t agree. I’m not saying you are insane BTW, just there are some crazies out there.
No one can say for sure what is definately going to happen in any single case, but it is important to make generalizations so people understand WHY everyone says that AAS are a risky move for young people.
im understand exactly what you are saying, but my point is that just because a bunch of people have decided that they believe that the HTPA is more stable once developed, and that that development is a direct function of age (even after puberty ends), doesnt have scientific backing.
I am not saying i think you are wrong necessarily, all I am saying is that the research is simply not there to determine the long term side effects of AAS on the HPTA (or almost anything for that matter) so it bothers me to see everyone everywhere brining up arbitrary dates and ages at which the HPTA is mature enough to use AAS, when all it comes down to is the poster’s opinion.
I also find it quite arrogant of people to think that no teenager could be disciplined in the gym and in training. While i think it is rare, there are certainly a number of teenager who train very seriously. I think it is arrogant to make broad statements about teenagers not training hard enough or making enough progress to take AAS.
I dont think its an unwise decision at all to give people a “finish line” or date at which AAS use is acceptable.
Bottom line is this, by 21-23 your HPTA is mature.
Could you safely use steroids earlier ? probably.
Is it possible for the average person, or even any one but an endocrinologist to determine this ? no not really.
Its a safety factor, if your tires are rated for 100 miles an hour, but in reality they were designed to go 150, it is HIGHLY unlikely that they will ever fail at 100.
Its done with EVERYTHING in engineering, every bridge, building, road, appliance, everything is stronger than its rating claims.
That way it will almost never fail at that rating, even if there is a slight defect in the product.
If we tell everyone, “wait till your 22”, even if they are mature enough at 20, they aren’t going to hurt anything by waiting. And our blanket statement more or less secures their safety at a time when the decision to use AAS is incredibly tempting, and their ability to weigh future consequences isnt what it should be.
Besides if the “hypothetical” “mature” teenager is really so “mature” they wouldn’t be wanting to use steroids early in the first place if they knew there was an increased risk at that age. They would be too “mature” to make such a brash decision.
in response to your last comment: i disagree completely. They did a study where they asked athletes if they would be willing to take a drug that would allow them to become elite and successful in the sport, but would die in 5 years. And most of them said they would take it.
In response to a mature HPTA, im still waiting to see the data that correlates a slightly (or very) immature HPTA to short and long term side effects.
Everyone keeps jumping ahead and assuming that using AAS on an immature HPTA is terrible, and I believe that you all are jumping ahead of the science. Where is the data to support these suspicions? I believe it is a myth that has propagated so long and far that all of these otherwise scientific people to make non scientific assumptions.
[/quote]
would you give test to a baby? a 12 yr old? both of them have ‘underdeveloped’ HPTA and if there is no risk then they should be fine right?
there is no data, because nobody is sick enough to inject teenagers with test to prove that it would mess them up.
It’s because scientifically people think there is a risk to even run an experiment like that.
As stated earlier…if you don’t grow like a freaking WEED as a teenager then AAS isn’t your answer but correcting training and diet is.
I put on nearly 80lbs from ages 15-20…and I only grew 1 inch between then.
It was mostly muscle as I’ve never had anything but a muscular physique. never been above 8% bf or so.
Point is…you do not NEED AAS at a young age when you can get steroid like gains by just lifting right and eating enough.
DG
Shoot i am 19, have trained with weights since 14, and all of my best gains have come in the last year and a half… At this point shouldn’t your testosterone be as high as it is going to get? if you hit a plateau now i would think that it can be solved with a change in diet or routine or recovery methods.
I bet those people could have made the same gains with or without steroids at this point in their life. Your body has not reached maturation… you still have a few more years of natural growth.
In 1 year at the same age i put on 50 lbs, gained over 120 lbs on my squat, 60 on my bench and 95 on my incline. I think the answer at this point of your life lies outside of steroids.
Everyone can get quick and awesome gains on roids, but almost no one stays on forever! So, yes, HTPA side effects can be way more complex - and permanent as in incomplete development of your natural systems if you take AAS too young.
And you can’t have all the knoweldge in training and nutrition when you’re 18! You’re simply impatient for gains. Gains that will come with roids, but that you’ll lose when cycling off unless you know what you’re doing, which most guys that young simply don’t, yet.
I’ve seen stories after stories on forums of youngsters watching peers take roids at 18 and yeah they get huge all right, but then at 25 they are already off the gear, off the weights, with all kind of injuries and overall lack of motivation to even do any kind of sports, while the guys that stayed natural are in top shape, and will be for a LONG time.
Why risk it all? Sure, it might turn out well, but do you really know why you’re doing it? Insecurity issues? To keep up with the other dudes? To get the girls?
IMO, find out the real reason(s) and find a way to get what you want without going to drugs as the first option.
[quote]Marlind wrote:
Think longterm…when theyre getting off…theyll have erection problems,shrinked balls.etc…plus peole react differently to ASS[/quote]
This has to be one of the stupidest fucking posts I have read in some time.
If you are taking steroids at 18 solely for aesthetic purposes - you are a lazy piece of shit.
If you are doing it at 18 for performance reasons, you are still lazy, but you are a lazy cheater.
[quote]MaddyD wrote:
or tell her GTFO[/quote]
That makes me think of a strap on.
Gross.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Lets consider a slightly different angle; that of psychological maturity.
I don’t know many teenagers that I would consider to be mentally ‘secure’ enough to take hormones, which lets be honest, do have some degree of psychological interaction.
For me, that’s one of the main negatives to underage use of steroids; the fact that ‘kids’ are prone to emotional outbursts, etc which will only be amplified by their use of steroids.
BBB[/quote]
Taking exogenous testosterone when one is still going through puberty is like throwing gasoline on a hormonal wildfire.
You are right - it does affect the emotions to some degree, and I don’t want to even think about my son (17) being on test and having to deal with his emotional state.
Hell, it’s hard enough dealing with him right now as it is.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Lets consider a slightly different angle; that of psychological maturity.
I don’t know many teenagers that I would consider to be mentally ‘secure’ enough to take hormones, which lets be honest, do have some degree of psychological interaction.
For me, that’s one of the main negatives to underage use of steroids; the fact that ‘kids’ are prone to emotional outbursts, etc which will only be amplified by their use of steroids.
BBB
Taking exogenous testosterone when one is still going through puberty is like throwing gasoline on a hormonal wildfire.
You are right - it does affect the emotions to some degree, and I don’t want to even think about my son (17) being on test and having to deal with his emotional state.
Hell, it’s hard enough dealing with him right now as it is.[/quote]
So the apple didn’t fall far from the tree eh? lol you know I’m joking RJ 
I agree with both of you tho.
Maybe teenagers are emotional wrecks because of altered hormone levels??? Isn’t that why all teen guys know it all and can do it all and teen girls become ‘drama queens’ lol
I also like your post about laziness RJ. Very true. If you can’t make progress as a teen then your doing something VERY wrong.
DG
[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Maybe teenagers are emotional wrecks because of altered hormone levels??? Isn’t that why all teen guys know it all and can do it all and teen girls become ‘drama queens’ lol[/quote]
“Maybe?”
No question about it. It IS the hormones.
the ‘maybe’ was my attempt at sarcasm. lol
I agree with BBB as a ‘catalyst’ but look at women for example…most are always mentally off (no offense ladies) as far as mental and emotional stability.
The constant emotional swings, etc. Some can deal with it better than others probably due to stubborness or life experiences, but whatever…lol…turn an 18 yr old using AAS thread into a thread on emotional hormonal stability haha. I guess fact is hormones do play a role on mood/emotions, so if one were to use you better be in a mental and emotional state to do so imo.
DG