Are "Bro Splits" Optimal When On Enhancements?

Training
61

Really!?! That’s amazing!

Because this entire post:

Is almost verbatim from his most recent training philosophy on effective reps.

Not that others can’t come to the same conclusions. I know that happens all the time when presented with the same information, but you must be a pretty sharp guy, because he is too. He even used to have his own subsection here.

Anyhoo, yeah, this stuff can be fun to discuss.

I’ve used moderate to high volume for different purposes like lactic threshold training, rehabilitative purposes adapted to my own circumstance, and sometimes just to burn it all to the ground.

I’m conditioning now partly for cardiac rehab, but a lot for shits and giggles, which actually, a lot of people are. I mean, you can draw a line where ever, but if it’s not for professional purposes (police, soldiers, security, etc.) or competition, then what it it for?

Personal enjoyment, life and health enhancements, right?

So I’d consider just about any rep range effective when balanced with correct loading parameters, if it moves one toward their goal, what ever that may be.

Or even if it doesn’t. Shits and giggles is just as good too.

62

Unless there is a study where someone did BBB with 3x10 vs BBB with 5x10 then you can ignore the study as the end goal of the study is different from the question you are asking.

Call them warm ups, call them feeler sets, call them non effective BUT 5x10 works better than 3x10. Not just with me, but check out the 531 section on here. BBB works for people.

Perhaps effective sets are only effective sets because they are dependent upon what you’ve done before them in terms of total volume.

63

What are Wendlers recommended loading parameters for this? Like 70-75% training max?

Edit: Woops! Nope!

Interesting order he places the 5x10 in though for a given day.

That’s not for the main lift. The main lift of the day is, for example Press which has its own loading recommendations,then bench and lat work at 5x10 is basically an ancilliary to the main lift.

Right?

64

Without getting in to too much detail here.

BBB is main 531, then either the same lift but done 5x10 or the other lift (so if the main was bench then the other loft wild be press).

There are much better threads and examples in the 531 section but also be warned there are many different 531 BBB variations.

65

@hankthetank89 you’re asking totally fair questions.

I don’t actually agree with your conclusion - I do go through phases where I do volume for volume’s sake and I believe I get something out of it. If nothing else, my pump is awesome that day and I impress the other middle-aged dads in the gym for an hour until it goes away; studies just aren’t statistically powered to prove how awesome that is because there’s only one of me.

To be fair, I don’t have any great measures that volume on its own is building muscle for me. I do have proxy measures (the aforementioned pump, improved conditioning, progressive overload be it weight, reps, reduced sets, etc.). I don’t know the mechanism, because on the surface I’d agree with you most of the lack of success we see in gyms is probably because of people not training ”hard” enough.

Anyway, the summation of that ramble is:

  • I agree the forum is the place for these discussions and your question is fair
  • I don’t agree sub-max volume is useless
  • I don’t know why I think it “works” (whatever that means)
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66

I agree with all of this.

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67

Yeah, thanks.

I just wanted to see if it was apples to apples that we’re talking about with the 3x10 vs. 5x10 comparison.

I’m leaning toward not quite. They’re certainly the same exercise but the application is different.

Also, hope I’m not coming off harshly with the “if it doesn’t affect your breathing”. That’s not my intention.

68

no, if 5x10 is done with 50% as BBB recomends, and 3x10 is done with 70-75%… That is the whole point i am trying to discuss. VOLUME does not matter if intensity is not taken into consideration, so i was asking the stronger guys - what do they think they get out of sets of reps with a weight that scientificly does not provide any training stimulus.
5x10 @ 50% works… all im saying is - scientificly 3x10 @ 70% works just as much, and it also saves time. I am very open to any reasoning against this.

69

In 5/3/1, even with 50%, you would get more of a reinforced movement pattern from those sets. Those sets may not DIRECTLY contribute to hypertrophy, but it’s like asking why high level powerlifters do speed work. There’s a use for all of it.

HOWEVER - I always did my 5x10 at more of a FSL, aka 70% of TM.

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70

this is a good one, if someone needs it - yea… but i always preffered BBB with alternate lift, like Wendler also recomends, to train muscle in different angles, etc - like doing BBB with incline dumbbells or ohp with db, etc… so this one is out, unless you actually only do same exercise… i also cant recover at all from deadlifts if id do deadlifts BBB, so i do good mornings, and box squats.

yea, and this is what im talking about… 3-5 sets of 10-12 reps @ 70%…

71

There are versions of 5/3/1 BBB that have just that. I also always did the same movement for BBB - which is really what made it “boring”. It’s difficult to recover from deadlifts, maybe, but I never had any problem with it whatsoever. Just had to eat a lot of food.

72

My recovery is shit due to my work so i stay away from BIG 4 as soon as my top set amrap is done.
I am a minimalist and i thrive mentally on boring stuff, so i would love nothing more as to do original BBB, but it just wrecks me into dust…

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73

Well, if the difference between vanilla 5/3/1 and BBB is you being wrecked, there must be a stimulus effect in there somewhere. Definitely the 50% always seemed far too light though. Things have changed from the original book a lot.

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74

Ya’ll are going to be so angry with all the 10x10 work I’ve been doing.

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75

Yeah, deep water is a great example of why those sets that aren’t anywhere near failure at first are super useful. Accumulating fatigue and practicing the movement. Weight doesn’t change in 6 weeks, and yet somehow my press goes through the roof during that time. Combination of accumulating fatigue and practicing movement patterns. Certainly, the original 5x10 at 50% in BBB isn’t having the same effect as deep water, though. 10x10 at 50% of TM, though, is probably similar to the 10x10 at 70% of 10RM.

76

You aren’t scientifically proven.

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77

I’m sure you noticed it as well, but my connective tissue feels AMAZING after Deep Water, because instead of having to use stupid high percentages to chase after that fatigue response, you just beat the hell out of your muscles with low weight work until, suddenly, that low weight is VERY challenging. It’s just a great break.

78

I know I only did it once for ohp & dead lift, but do/did you hit a brutal wall at the 7th set or is that just an individual thing?

Everything before it was so-so, not cake but not Really hard. But everything after was pure blood and guts.

79

now this is a good reason - yea… this is what i was looking for… i totally agree on this - i could let my elbows rest and just take a bit lighter dumbbells… this is really a good way to explain this, thanks :slight_smile:

80

You see something similar with DoggCrapp. Lots of warm ups getting to that one big topset, and in the case of squats, a heavy set BEFORE the windowmaker. John Meadows is similar as well: fatigue the muscles BEFORE the heavy work so that it’s lighter.

It’s one of the best lessons I’ve learned over time. I don’t care how much weight I’m lifting in training: just how much it’s fatiguing me. I save heavy stuff for comps.

@SkyzykS Set 7 is when I “allow myself to hurt” on the program. Basically, if I start changing my breathing or execution before that, I’m not going to make it all the way through. So, for example, if I was able to hold my breath for 7 reps on squat set 1, I HAVE to hold it for 7 reps through set 6. Once I get to set 7, I can let it go at 6 or fewer. That’s also when I can allow myself to “rest” at the top of the set and regather for another rep.

I’ve noticed on the clean days that set 7 is when I just suddenly run out of gas and feel some the fatigue setting in hard.

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