Are Bodypart Splits Useless?

Training Bodybuilding
721

[quote]TBT4ver wrote:
So this thread can die, can we boil down the argument to this:

“Split”, as defined (or backtrackingly defined) by Trextacy, means only a 1 body part a day, training each body part once a week.

Anything else, such as DC, or upper/lower, or push/pull/legs, etc. is not a “split” as defined by Trex (don’t ask me why, this is what i’ve gathered from the last 10 or so pages).

Accordingly, the 1 body part a day, once a week, may not be the ideal starting point for every beginner. This actually seems like a reasonable proposition that not every person right out the gates should do this type of “split” (however, many other non-Trex defined splits are in fact, great for beginners as opposed to TBT).

So, if this is correct, we can probably agree that the 1 body part a day, 1 body part per week may not be the ideal training frequency for a beginner. However, if this is correct, please for the love of god Trextacy learn your goddamn terminology before starting a completely useless thread war in the future.[/quote]

We have already stated several times that no one would recommend a beginner start only training one body part a day.

If he is still thinking that is what defines a split routine, remedial grammar school classes may be in order.

722

[quote]Professor X wrote:
29 pages.

29 fucking pages.

Are there really a bunch of people out there who think you need to be “advanced” for a split routine to work?

I feel funny even using that term because when I started training, that was just how you trained. It didn’t have a name and no one gave a shit about whether it was called ‘split training’ or ‘full body training’. You did what worked…which was pretty much everything.[/quote]

out fo curiosity what did your splits look like when you started out?

723

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
derek wrote:
There is NO PROOF, none, that ANYONE that does TBT will progress any faster than if he had done splits from the beginning.

There’s NO PROOF, none, that ANYONE that does a split will progress any faster than if he had done TBT either.
[/quote]

Great, you are making my point!

Let’s stipulate that there’s NO DIFFERENCE in speed of growth ok?

Great, now if that’s so, then why not just do the fucking splits in the first place? Everyone here at least agrees that if you do this long enough and are serious about getting big, you’ll end up doing splits anyway. Why not just START there and get to know your body and what it takes to grow.

Or maybe you want to spend a few years getting to know how you react with TBT only to find the need to learn a whole new system when it no longer works? It WILL happen if you are a serious bodybuilder. (and if you’re NOT a serious bodybuilder or never were, why post here?)

Either that or just admit that TBT is more fun for you or whatever. Just stop saying that they are better for the earlier stages of bodybuilding when they have never been proven to be.

724

[quote]trextacy wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
trextacy wrote:

What kills me is some of these guys have pics in their profiles and they are simply fat guys who lift. Those are a dime a dozen, and have nothing more in common with “bodybuilders” than Brad Pitt does (insert anyone who is lean w/o muscle). Muscle w/o leanness is just as deficient as leanness without muscle. But I digress…

good luck to you too.[/quote]

So in other words you’re one of those who think they can do the whole journey while staying pretty-boy-lean.

Good luck, but then again, if your goal is to add 20 pounds and that’s it, then you could prolly do it…

725

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
29 pages.

29 fucking pages.

Are there really a bunch of people out there who think you need to be “advanced” for a split routine to work?

I feel funny even using that term because when I started training, that was just how you trained. It didn’t have a name and no one gave a shit about whether it was called ‘split training’ or ‘full body training’. You did what worked…which was pretty much everything.

out fo curiosity what did your splits look like when you started out?[/quote]

Mon
Biceps back (calves maybe)

Tues
Shoulders

Wed
legs

Thursday
Chest triceps

Friday
whatever muscle group I was focusing on to bring up which was often chest again or back and biceps again.

Saturday and Sunday off.

That was basically it in college because the gym was closed on weekends.

726

[quote]TBT4ver wrote:
So this thread can die, can we boil down the argument to this:

“Split”, as defined (or backtrackingly defined) by Trextacy, means only a 1 body part a day, training each body part once a week.

Anything else, such as DC, or upper/lower, or push/pull/legs, etc. is not a “split” as defined by Trex (don’t ask me why, this is what i’ve gathered from the last 10 or so pages).

Accordingly, the 1 body part a day, once a week, may not be the ideal starting point for every beginner. This actually seems like a reasonable proposition that not every person right out the gates should do this type of “split” (however, many other non-Trex defined splits are in fact, great for beginners as opposed to TBT).

So, if this is correct, we can probably agree that the 1 body part a day, 1 body part per week may not be the ideal training frequency for a beginner.

However, if this is correct, please for the love of god Trextacy learn your goddamn terminology before starting a completely useless thread war in the future.[/quote]

From a post of mine from last week (8/18)on this thread:

“If you nuance it to say “a split of some kind” as you’ve done, you have an “out” but that is simply wordsmithing it. This isn’t entire body vs. everything else…this is a discussion about whether “traditional bodybuilding” style split training is superior than full body for building muscle.”

This was about my 3rd or 4th post on this thread and was on page 9 or 10. My first post on this thread was on page 9. I believe Professor X (and several other guys who pretend like this shit doesn’t give them raging hard ons)had about 20 posts on this thread before I even entered the fray. I didn’t start shit and I sure as hell haven’t backtracked. Using what others say about what I’ve said is the worst way to figure out what I’ve said.

In the context of this discussion, “split” is refering to a 4-6 way split. We have been arguing about whether what pro bodybuilders do is “best” for natural beginners and intermediates. My terminology is straight and has been consistent throughout the thread.

I’ve also said that full body → upper/lower → push/pull/legs is a great progression for most, with things getting split up even further only making sense only when someone is advanced.

727

[quote]Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
29 pages.

29 fucking pages.

Are there really a bunch of people out there who think you need to be “advanced” for a split routine to work?

I feel funny even using that term because when I started training, that was just how you trained. It didn’t have a name and no one gave a shit about whether it was called ‘split training’ or ‘full body training’. You did what worked…which was pretty much everything.

out fo curiosity what did your splits look like when you started out?

Mon
Biceps back (calves maybe)

Tues
Shoulders

Wed
legs

Thursday
Chest triceps

Friday
whatever muscle group I was focusing on to bring up which was often chest again or back and biceps again.

Saturday and Sunday off.

That was basically it in college because the gym was closed on weekends.[/quote]

Did you keep that same layout and just change what lifts you did around, or did you experiment with a few other splits?

728

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
29 pages.

29 fucking pages.

Are there really a bunch of people out there who think you need to be “advanced” for a split routine to work?

I feel funny even using that term because when I started training, that was just how you trained. It didn’t have a name and no one gave a shit about whether it was called ‘split training’ or ‘full body training’. You did what worked…which was pretty much everything.

out fo curiosity what did your splits look like when you started out?

Mon
Biceps back (calves maybe)

Tues
Shoulders

Wed
legs

Thursday
Chest triceps

Friday
whatever muscle group I was focusing on to bring up which was often chest again or back and biceps again.

Saturday and Sunday off.

That was basically it in college because the gym was closed on weekends.

Did you keep that same layout and just change what lifts you did around, or did you experiment with a few other splits?[/quote]

Your question doesn’t make much sense to me. None of this was written in stone. If my shoulders were still sore, I sure as hell wouldn’t be training them that day whether they were on a schedule or not.

Are there some of you just doing shit because it is written down? If so, why?

I might train back and chest on the same day…or shoulders and triceps. The day they got worked is NOT important. What is important is that they got worked regularly.

These are basic concepts that, frankly, unless you just walked into a gym this week for the first time, you should already understand.

This is why some of you need to spend much LESS time worrying about some of the articles here.

729

[quote]trextacy wrote:
TBT4ver wrote:
So this thread can die, can we boil down the argument to this:

“Split”, as defined (or backtrackingly defined) by Trextacy, means only a 1 body part a day, training each body part once a week.

Anything else, such as DC, or upper/lower, or push/pull/legs, etc. is not a “split” as defined by Trex (don’t ask me why, this is what i’ve gathered from the last 10 or so pages).

Accordingly, the 1 body part a day, once a week, may not be the ideal starting point for every beginner. This actually seems like a reasonable proposition that not every person right out the gates should do this type of “split” (however, many other non-Trex defined splits are in fact, great for beginners as opposed to TBT).

So, if this is correct, we can probably agree that the 1 body part a day, 1 body part per week may not be the ideal training frequency for a beginner.

However, if this is correct, please for the love of god Trextacy learn your goddamn terminology before starting a completely useless thread war in the future.

From a post of mine from last week (8/18)on this thread:

“If you nuance it to say “a split of some kind” as you’ve done, you have an “out” but that is simply wordsmithing it. This isn’t entire body vs. everything else…this is a discussion about whether “traditional bodybuilding” style split training is superior than full body for building muscle.”

This was about my 3rd or 4th post on this thread and was on page 9 or 10. My first post on this thread was on page 9. I believe Professor X (and several other guys who pretend like this shit doesn’t give them raging hard ons)had about 20 posts on this thread before I even entered the fray. I didn’t start shit and I sure as hell haven’t backtracked. Using what others say about what I’ve said is the worst way to figure out what I’ve said.

In the context of this discussion, “split” is refering to a 4-6 way split. We have been arguing about whether what pro bodybuilders do is “best” for natural beginners and intermediates. My terminology is straight and has been consistent throughout the thread.

I’ve also said that full body → upper/lower → push/pull/legs is a great progression for most, with things getting split up even further only making sense only when someone is advanced.
[/quote]

What the fuck is a 4-6 way split? No one else is putting splits into little categories like you are.

730

[quote]Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
29 pages.

29 fucking pages.

Are there really a bunch of people out there who think you need to be “advanced” for a split routine to work?

I feel funny even using that term because when I started training, that was just how you trained. It didn’t have a name and no one gave a shit about whether it was called ‘split training’ or ‘full body training’. You did what worked…which was pretty much everything.

out fo curiosity what did your splits look like when you started out?

Mon
Biceps back (calves maybe)

Tues
Shoulders

Wed
legs

Thursday
Chest triceps

Friday
whatever muscle group I was focusing on to bring up which was often chest again or back and biceps again.

Saturday and Sunday off.

That was basically it in college because the gym was closed on weekends.

Did you keep that same layout and just change what lifts you did around, or did you experiment with a few other splits?

Your question doesn’t make much sense to me. None of this was written in stone. If my shoulders were still sore, I sure as hell wouldn’t be training them that day whether they were on a schedule or not.

Are there some of you just doing shit because it is written down? If so, why?

I might train back and chest on the same day…or shoulders and triceps. The day they got worked is NOT important. What is important is that they got worked regularly.

These are basic concepts that, frankly, unless you just walked into a gym this week for the first time, you should already understand.

This is why some of you need to spend much LESS time worrying about some of the articles here.[/quote]

I was more of less asking if you ever switched to pull/push/legs or another kind of split. And how long it usually took for you to have to switch movements. I fully understand the don’t hit the same muscle when it’s still recovering, which is why my routine is layed out like it is, because I experimented until I found out what worked for me and it will obviously continue to change as I get more developed. Please, don’t paint me with the dipshit paintbrush.

731

[quote]Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:
TBT4ver wrote:
So this thread can die, can we boil down the argument to this:

“Split”, as defined (or backtrackingly defined) by Trextacy, means only a 1 body part a day, training each body part once a week.

Anything else, such as DC, or upper/lower, or push/pull/legs, etc. is not a “split” as defined by Trex (don’t ask me why, this is what i’ve gathered from the last 10 or so pages).

Accordingly, the 1 body part a day, once a week, may not be the ideal starting point for every beginner. This actually seems like a reasonable proposition that not every person right out the gates should do this type of “split” (however, many other non-Trex defined splits are in fact, great for beginners as opposed to TBT).

So, if this is correct, we can probably agree that the 1 body part a day, 1 body part per week may not be the ideal training frequency for a beginner.

However, if this is correct, please for the love of god Trextacy learn your goddamn terminology before starting a completely useless thread war in the future.

From a post of mine from last week (8/18)on this thread:

“If you nuance it to say “a split of some kind” as you’ve done, you have an “out” but that is simply wordsmithing it. This isn’t entire body vs. everything else…this is a discussion about whether “traditional bodybuilding” style split training is superior than full body for building muscle.”

This was about my 3rd or 4th post on this thread and was on page 9 or 10. My first post on this thread was on page 9. I believe Professor X (and several other guys who pretend like this shit doesn’t give them raging hard ons)had about 20 posts on this thread before I even entered the fray. I didn’t start shit and I sure as hell haven’t backtracked. Using what others say about what I’ve said is the worst way to figure out what I’ve said.

In the context of this discussion, “split” is refering to a 4-6 way split. We have been arguing about whether what pro bodybuilders do is “best” for natural beginners and intermediates. My terminology is straight and has been consistent throughout the thread.

I’ve also said that full body → upper/lower → push/pull/legs is a great progression for most, with things getting split up even further only making sense only when someone is advanced.

What the fuck is a 4-6 way split? No one else is putting splits into little categories like you are. [/quote]

When someone says “train like a bodybuilder” you are talking about a certain kind of split. I have never said “splits” as a huge umbrella of “everything but full body” isn’t good. I’m talking about what most pro/amateur bodybuilders train like. What do you think it is? Stop playing dumb. It is where the body is split up and trained over a 4-6 day period, then repeated the next week.

6-day split

Arms
Chest
Shoulders
Back
Quads/abs
Hams/calves

5-day split:

arms
chest
legs
shoulders
back

4-day split

shoulders/arms
chest
back
legs

732

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

I was more of less asking if you ever switched to pull/push/legs or another kind of split. And how long it usually took for you to have to switch movements. I fully understand the don’t hit the same muscle when it’s still recovering, which is why my routine is layed out like it is, because I experimented until I found out what worked for me and it will obviously continue to change as I get more developed. Please, don’t paint me with the dipshit paintbrush.[/quote]

I had never even heard of “push pull” or whatever until recently on this site.

The basics work for everyone. If they don’t, then finding a new hobby may be in order.

If I am training shoulders one day, it would make little sense to train chest the very next day because the same joint and some of the same muscles are used. Therefore, biceps and back usually preceded or followed chest and triceps. That was the logic behind it. Nothing more.

Work a muscle efficiently, let it rest and go eat. That was all we did at the time…and the other guys I trained with made great progress without making it any more complicated than that at all.

The more weight I continued to use years later, the less muscle groups I could work in one session with enough intensity. Therefore, once I hit dental school, my training went to one body part a day. I was weighing about 240lbs at the time so I was far from a newbie.

733

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:
TBT4ver wrote:
So this thread can die, can we boil down the argument to this:

“Split”, as defined (or backtrackingly defined) by Trextacy, means only a 1 body part a day, training each body part once a week.

Anything else, such as DC, or upper/lower, or push/pull/legs, etc. is not a “split” as defined by Trex (don’t ask me why, this is what i’ve gathered from the last 10 or so pages).

Accordingly, the 1 body part a day, once a week, may not be the ideal starting point for every beginner. This actually seems like a reasonable proposition that not every person right out the gates should do this type of “split” (however, many other non-Trex defined splits are in fact, great for beginners as opposed to TBT).

So, if this is correct, we can probably agree that the 1 body part a day, 1 body part per week may not be the ideal training frequency for a beginner.

However, if this is correct, please for the love of god Trextacy learn your goddamn terminology before starting a completely useless thread war in the future.

From a post of mine from last week (8/18)on this thread:

“If you nuance it to say “a split of some kind” as you’ve done, you have an “out” but that is simply wordsmithing it. This isn’t entire body vs. everything else…this is a discussion about whether “traditional bodybuilding” style split training is superior than full body for building muscle.”

This was about my 3rd or 4th post on this thread and was on page 9 or 10. My first post on this thread was on page 9. I believe Professor X (and several other guys who pretend like this shit doesn’t give them raging hard ons)had about 20 posts on this thread before I even entered the fray. I didn’t start shit and I sure as hell haven’t backtracked. Using what others say about what I’ve said is the worst way to figure out what I’ve said.

In the context of this discussion, “split” is refering to a 4-6 way split. We have been arguing about whether what pro bodybuilders do is “best” for natural beginners and intermediates. My terminology is straight and has been consistent throughout the thread.

I’ve also said that full body → upper/lower → push/pull/legs is a great progression for most, with things getting split up even further only making sense only when someone is advanced.

What the fuck is a 4-6 way split? No one else is putting splits into little categories like you are.

When someone says “train like a bodybuilder” you are talking about a certain kind of split. I have never said “splits” as a huge umbrella of “everything but full body” isn’t good. I’m talking about what most pro/amateur bodybuilders train like. What do you think it is? Stop playing dumb. It is where the body is split up and trained over a 4-6 day period, then repeated the next week.

6-day split

Arms
Chest
Shoulders
Back
Quads/abs
Hams/calves

5-day split:

arms
chest
legs
shoulders
back

4-day split

shoulders/arms
chest
back
legs
[/quote]

So, what you are saying is you can’t grasp the concept of progression.

734

Trextacy,

I feel sorry for you. Now bear with me. I am not trying to be an asshole here, and I don’t know if it’s the emo mood I’m feeling right now, or the fact that I was just forced to watch The Notebook, but I wish you could look through this blinding cover that all these articles and authors have built for you.

On this thread everyone has been bashing you and yet you are resilient with your views, whether they are right or wrong. Your loyalty is commendable.

I wish you the best with your training. Lifting weights is something downright holy, and in the end, you just do what you enjoy best.

Have a good one.

735

[quote]Alquemist wrote:
Trextacy,

I feel sorry for you. Now bear with me. I am not trying to be an asshole here, and I don’t know if it’s the emo mood I’m feeling right now, or the fact that I was just forced to watch The Notebook, but I wish you could look through this blinding cover that all these articles and authors have built for you.

On this thread everyone has been bashing you and yet you are resilient with your views, whether they are right or wrong. Your loyalty is commendable.

I wish you the best with your training. Lifting weights is something downright holy, and in the end, you just do what you enjoy best.

Have a good one.[/quote]

Thanks (I think). I stand by it because of results. I only cite articles and other trainers to illustrate the fact that there are many people who agree with what I’m saying. If I wasn’t gaining weight, size and getting stronger I wouldn’t do it. I cut for about 5 weeks using German Body Comp and like it for cutting fat.

Best of luck to you too.

736

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I had never even heard of “push pull” or whatever until recently on this site.

The basics work for everyone. If they don’t, then finding a new hobby may be in order.

If I am training shoulders one day, it would make little sense to train chest the very next day because the same joint and some of the same muscles are used. Therefore, biceps and back usually preceded or followed chest and triceps. That was the logic behind it. Nothing more.
[/quote]

I generally use push/pull as a proxy for chest/triceps, back/biceps, shoulder/triceps (all ‘upper’ in various planes), deads, squats (lower). Maybe that’s not conventional but it’s how I think about it.

I honestly go in thinking I’m going to either press horizontal (bench, dbs, floor press, etc), or press vertical (near vertical) like incline press or mil/push press on ‘push’ day.

I’ve recently boiled down to a handful of movements that are working for me, in part because I vary the rep schemes and am eating for it.

As you described, I don’t think I’d be able to do shoulders after a chest/tri day (ie push after a push).

Works for me anyhow…

737

[quote]derek wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
derek wrote:
There is NO PROOF, none, that ANYONE that does TBT will progress any faster than if he had done splits from the beginning.

There’s NO PROOF, none, that ANYONE that does a split will progress any faster than if he had done TBT either.

Great, you are making my point!

Let’s stipulate that there’s NO DIFFERENCE in speed of growth ok?

Great, now if that’s so, then why not just do the fucking splits in the first place? Everyone here at least agrees that if you do this long enough and are serious about getting big, you’ll end up doing splits anyway. Why not just START there and get to know your body and what it takes to grow.

Or maybe you want to spend a few years getting to know how you react with TBT only to find the need to learn a whole new system when it no longer works? It WILL happen if you are a serious bodybuilder. (and if you’re NOT a serious bodybuilder or never were, why post here?)

Either that or just admit that TBT is more fun for you or whatever. Just stop saying that they are better for the earlier stages of bodybuilding when they have never been proven to be.[/quote]

  1. ‘Lack of proof’ is totally different than ‘no difference’.
  2. Serious Bodybuilder to me is somebody who is actively working towards the pro-card and has entered into a competition this year, if they are the only people that can talk this 30 page thread would probably be reduced to one person. Anything else is a hobby, or dream.
  3. I stated my views on TBT for me, and what I’ve seen.
  4. If everything you say needs to already have been in a specific scientific study, we might have to delete 95% of your post, as well as no need for a forum all together.

Really it seems like the mods renamed the title of the thread, and everybody got their panties in a bunch defending a side like it’s their religon. Truth of the matter is most people’s routines either change or a combination of both. However both forms of training are built around fundamental concepts which have been debated since the begining of time and have had parts analyzed in scientific studies.

When broken down they are built around 1) bodypart combinations 2) frequency then further broken down into a)intensity(amount of weight) b) mental endurance c)reps/sets. If a “THINK TANK” discussed and debated with backup(meaning sharing your experience, or your googled site) these concepts, alot of knowlege can be gained. Then maybe one day you will have a few people on here that say I used strict tbt for 8 weeks and gained 20 lbs, or vice versa.

Instead with a few exceptions the arguments are “your a fucking idiot if you don’t see splits are better”.

738

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

Instead with a few exceptions the arguments are “your a fucking idiot if you don’t see splits are better”. [/quote]

Wow. It is much more like, “you are a fucking idiot if you ignore what most of the largest lifters have done to get that big and proportioned only to claim that something else used by a minority is BETTER”.

739

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I generally use push/pull as a proxy for chest/triceps, back/biceps, shoulder/triceps (all ‘upper’ in various planes), deads, squats (lower). Maybe that’s not conventional but it’s how I think about it.

I honestly go in thinking I’m going to either press horizontal (bench, dbs, floor press, etc), or press vertical (near vertical) like incline press or mil/push press on ‘push’ day.
[/quote]

Who the hell talks like this? Honestly, what good is it doing you to think of bodybuilding in such a ridiculous way?

Especially when your profile says “just shut up and lift.”

740

I actually didn’t want to post in this thread again, but…

Was just browsing Jay Cutler’s site… Looked at his training, found a routine he recommends to beginners…

Got most big compound moves in it, and the frequency is a little higher than once a week (cycle repeats on the 6th day).
Seeing as the issue of what Pro’s recommend for beginners has come up multiple times, I just wanted to mention that… Seems like a sound routine to me…

It’s a 4-way split, btw.
3 work sets (i.e. one very light warmup maybe, then 3 sets pyramiding up in weight with a max-set at the end) for most exercises except squats (4 pyramiding sets, seeing as you’d use heavier weight there).

He even got SLDL’s in for hammies… I’d do both the SLDL’s and Leg Curls, not either/or, but in general, I don’t see why such a routine should be inferior to tbt for a beginner…