Are Bodypart Splits Useless?

Training Bodybuilding
581

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Guy with HUGE glasses walks into the Air Force recruiting Center:

Guy: “I would like to be a fighter pilot”

Air Force Recruiter: “You need very good eye sight to be a fighter pilot”

Guy:“But I read that anyone can be a fighter pilot if they want to and that the top fighter pilots only got that way because they had genetically better eye sight and quick reflexes. For average guys to be fighter pilots, we should start flying crop dusters…and I did that all summer!”

Air Force Recruiter: “You need very good eyesight to be a fighter pilot and our fighter pilots didn’t start out on crop dusters. They started out on our own advanced training program.”

Guy: “But I don’t have the time in a day for a new program and I shouldn’t be prevented from being a fighter pilot just because I wear glasses! Leading internet experts agree that ANYONE can be a fighter pilot and I think all of your pilots are doing programs that ONLY work if you have good eyesight and quick reflexes”.

Air Force Recruiter: “That would be the point”

Guy: “But I heard of one guy in 1945 who flew a plane after flying crop dusters!!”

Air Force Recruiter: “Security!”[/quote]

Hehehe :wink:
How very fitting, actually…

582

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Guy with HUGE glasses walks into the Air Force recruiting Center:

Guy: “I would like to be a fighter pilot”

Air Force Recruiter: “You need very good eye sight to be a fighter pilot”

Guy:“But I read that anyone can be a fighter pilot if they want to and that the top fighter pilots only got that way because they had genetically better eye sight and quick reflexes. For average guys to be fighter pilots, we should start flying crop dusters…and I did that all summer!”

Air Force Recruiter: “You need very good eyesight to be a fighter pilot and our fighter pilots didn’t start out on crop dusters. They started out on our own advanced training program.”

Guy: “But I don’t have the time in a day for a new program and I shouldn’t be prevented from being a fighter pilot just because I wear glasses! Leading internet experts agree that ANYONE can be a fighter pilot and I think all of your pilots are doing programs that ONLY work if you have good eyesight and quick reflexes”.

Air Force Recruiter: “That would be the point”

Guy: “But I heard of one guy in 1945 who flew a plane after flying crop dusters!!”

Air Force Recruiter: “Security!”

Hehehe :wink:
How very fitting, actually…[/quote]

heh. nice.

583

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
To see all the people on here saying TBT can’t put on a foundation of size for bodybuilding is amazing.

This is what gets me. Who here has written that TBT can NOT build any size at all? What has been said is you would have to have your head firmly wedged between both butt cheeks to ignore what has built the best built bodies on the planet in majority for decades if the goal is to also gain the most muscle. There is nothing that dictates someone has to use TBT before they use a split routine other than the opinion of authors, many of which seem to dislike bodybuilding…which is the fucking goal to start with.

The entire argument seems to be that some think you somehow NEED TBT as a beginner and that it is most effective for building a foundation.

This is false. Someone who has a chance in hell of truly standing out to begin with won’t be so genetically predisposed to sucking at athletic endeavors that they need something to help them build enough strength just to see a benefit from a split routine. If someone is that weak and uncoordinated that they need an “intro to splits”, they probably don’t have very good genetics for bodybuilding to begin with.

That is the argument. If that still isn’t clear at this point to someone, how about simply stepping out of the thread because another 20 pages of arguments from some of the smallest lifters on the site probably won’t interest too many people.

I would sure like to see this huge headed Watcher who can make a factual claim to what one program has built the best bodies on the planet since the era of bodybuilding.

Most of the bodybuilders I’ve heard of either built their foundation playing sports early on, or the skinny ones who started late all started with an all muscle groups 3 days a week program, and may have switched to many different types of programs later on. To discount their original program that many if not most used, is on par with saying you should get down to 5% bodyfat before bulking because they learned their ways from being a 250+ fat boy first.

If you want to go by majority rules then gyms are completely FILLED with small ass trainees using split programs similar to all your large pro-bodybuilder size split comrads arguing in this thread who don’t compete.

Most bodybuilders may have played sports early on but very few went from skinny to huge doing a full body program 3 times a week. Shawn Ray didn’t. Arnold didn’t. Lou Ferrigno didn’t. Ben White didn’t. I could go through all of the names I know for sure who didn’t but what will it matter if you refuse to accept it?

I know I didn’t either. How many people on this site alone have gone from skinny to huge doing a full body routine 3 times a week most of the time to do it? You?[/quote]

I don’t refuse to accept the names or the theories, what I want to be sure of is that your saying on their way from skinny to huge they ONLY used split programs or when they did use TBT programs they didn’t gain weight as much weight as the did with split. My question after that would be how do you know? Far as I see going from skinny to huge takes time and I haven’t met or seen anyone who has stayed on one program throughout that time.

Take Arnold who was a huge proponent of volume training used some insane TBT in his days, working out total body nearly every day. I’ve seen him quote this as one of his routines at one time, are you saying (opinion or fact?) that he grew more on the other programs then he did on this?

Mon, Wed, Fri

Chest:
Bench press 5 x 6-10
Flat bench flyes 5 x 6-10
Incline bench press 6 x 6-10
Cable crossovers 6 x 10-12
Dips (body weight) 5 x failure
Dumbell pullovers 5 x 10-12.

Back:
Wide-grip chins (to front) 6 x failure
T-bar rows 5 x 6-10
Seated pulley rows 6 x 6-10
One-arm dumbell rows 5 x 6-10
Straight-leg deadlifts 6 x 15

Legs:
Squats 6 x 8-12
Leg press 6 x 8-12
Leg extensions 6 x 12-15
Leg curls 6 x 10-12
Barbell lunges 5 x 15

Calves:
Standing calf raises 10 x 10
Seated calf raises 8 x 15
Oneplegged calf raises (holding dumbells) 6x12

Forearms:
Wrist curls (forearms on knees) - 4 sets, 10 reps
Reverse barbell curls - 4 sets, 8 reps
Wright roller machine - to failure

Abs:
½ hour of a variety of nonspecific abdominal exercises, done virtually nonstop.

Tues, Thurs, Sat

Biceps:
Barbell curls 6 x 6-10
Seated dumbell curls 6 x 6-10
Dumbell concentration curls 6 x 6-10

Triceps:
Close-grip bench presses 6 x 6-10
Pushdowns 6 x 6-10
French press (barbell) 6 x 6-10
One-arm triceps extensions (dumbell) 6 x 6-10

Shoulders:
Seated barbell presses 6 x 6-10
Lateral raises (standing) 6 x 6-10
Rear-delt lateral raises 5 x 6-10
Cable lateral raises 5 x 10-12

Do I? No.
Have I? Yes, and to be honest it is the most weight I’ve gained in the shortest period of time (it appeared to be all muscle), 15lbs in 3.5 months while playing pick up basketball every day, that may not be alot for everybody on here but in experience that was a great gain. I can chalk it up to being 19, but I lifted weights before that time 2-3 years, and after (10 years off and on) and in both cases I never gained that much without a significant gain in height.

584

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
stuff
[/quote]

You got that from here:
http://www.schwarzenegger-interactive.com/workout.html
Which also stated on the home page:

This is not how Arnold trained himself. If you want that, take a look at his encyclopedia or any of the other books he released. This is the first I have ever heard someone try to say he trained TBT to get to where he was when competing.

If you want an idea of a workout for him, go here:
http://www.davedraper.com/mag-team-up-to-train.html

He believed in HIGH VOLUME and training very often, not only three days a week.

From Joe Weider:

[quote] You have to appreciate that their union as great training partners pushed them and made them great muscle men. Both men were very strong. I still have many of my old journals describing these workouts, the training sessions these two made together.

Picking out a page, I see on a six-day-a-week schedule, they trained on a double split (!), where they did the following on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, for example:

BACK, BICEPS & FOREARMS[/quote]

A double split and training six days a week sounds like TBT?

There is a difference between those who have actually researched this info…and those who do quick internet searches to find whatever supports what they already want to believe.

585

Just an addition from that site I posted, this is the true essance of what allows someone to stand out and why others don’t

[quote] Dave and Arnold trained with a definite purpose in mind. In other words, if they were training legs, you can believe that every weight and every pulley and every machine in the gym go used and abused, but they weren’t slaves to a totally fixed program.

If Dave was feeling his Wheaties, he might push Arnold to a front squat record for reps. If Arnold was feeling strong, he’d challenge Dave in the back squats. It went on and on.[/quote]

Many here ARE slaves to a certain routine. They have it written out in detail on little clip boards and never stray from it to find their own way.

Fanboys.

Regardless of how someone like that trains, their results will be far less than someone who is willing to take a risk and find out what suits them alone best.

586

Die thread,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,
DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE,DIE

587

[quote]rwhaan wrote:
rwhaan
Join date: Aug 2008
Location:
Posts: 2

split’s or part training is not superior to total body training… [/quote]

WTF?!

588

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
stuff

You got that from here:
http://www.schwarzenegger-interactive.com/workout.html
Which also stated on the home page:
This site was not created by Arnold Schwarzenegger, nor is it in anyway personally affiliated with him. This is just a fan tribute site created as a resource to bodybuilding fans.

This is not how Arnold trained himself. If you want that, take a look at his encyclopedia or any of the other books he released. This is the first I have ever heard someone try to say he trained TBT to get to where he was when competing.

If you want an idea of a workout for him, go here:
http://www.davedraper.com/mag-team-up-to-train.html

He believed in HIGH VOLUME and training very often, not only three days a week.

From Joe Weider:
You have to appreciate that their union as great training partners pushed them and made them great muscle men. Both men were very strong. I still have many of my old journals describing these workouts, the training sessions these two made together.

Picking out a page, I see on a six-day-a-week schedule, they trained on a double split (!), where they did the following on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, for example:

BACK, BICEPS & FOREARMS

A double split and training six days a week sounds like TBT?

There is a difference between those who have actually researched this info…and those who do quick internet searches to find whatever supports what they already want to believe.[/quote]

Your espn abilities are broke Prof. X, I got that from this site Old School Bodybuilding - The Arnold Schwarzenegger Workout Routine. I have already looked at a book I already own unless your saying I need to keep updating from volume 2.

A listed routine doesn’t have to be from a site personally affialiated with him, to be his routine. Are you saying he never done this? I can respect if you just don’t trust it but I believe it to be true based on seeing the same information from many reputable sites.

I do remember asking what is TBT?, which case I got no answer so I use My personal reference which I defined as (chest, back, legs same day). This is clearly what he did in the routine I stated above, even though his arms were split. This is also the same amount of volume your fellow thread split supporters seemed to imply wouldn’t work because a persons intensity would wane.

Now you reference a routine from a partner that he trained with for a short period of time nearly 10 years after he already started competing which means he already had size on him, how much more size did he generate on this program from when he started.

When going back to the his books and biographies before trying to be governor he said numerous times he trained every body part every day went home and drank beer with his pals. Did this not play a major role in his building size?

Are you saying the split he did years later with Dave, packed on more weight then his early years? or his time with Weider? or the few years before?

589

Are we really going to use a guy who gained 95% of his size by the time he was 19-20?

He has to have the most copied routines of all time bar none… and yet very few seem to have succeeded with them. Wouldn’t that indicate something?

590

This is prett simple, afterall, isn’t it? It’s all about goals.

Want to be Conan the Barbarian? Splits.

Want to be Van Wylder? TBT.

591

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Are we really going to use a guy who gained 95% of his size by the time he was 19-20?

He has to have the most copied routines of all time bar none… and yet very few seem to have succeeded with them. Wouldn’t that indicate something?[/quote]

I’m just trying to clear up the view on TBT, we can use anybody. But at the same time are we going to give an excuse for every example? (for or against)

I honestly don’t care if it’s a steriod guy, a genetic guy, an every day guy in the gym. Outside of myself I haven’t seen one person who has a described an example of a significant weight gain using one protocol compared to the other.

In my case that was a time when I was lifting ALOT so a split may or may have not worked better. Either way I think it would be great for my bag of tools to know if one is better than the other for …gaining weight, gaining muscle size, maintenance, strength or designs.

I see people have discussed their stats, but they don’t seem to discuss their experiences or pro role models. The few select times they do they opt for a quick snapshot of their training life that proves their point versus, last year I did a split gained 20 lbs, then 2 years ago when I needed just maintance I did tbt and still gained 1lb.

I applaud Prof for naming bodybuilders but is he the only person that even attempts to learn about bodybuilding in this thread?

592

I sure hope he’s not the only one… I consider myself to have a pretty decent knowledge on the sport and it’s history but we(especially him with more knowledge) are most certainly in the minority about that.

Most people would be pretty hard pressed to tell me who won the last(well 2) pro shows this year without bringing up google or MD and that’s sad on a bodybuilding forum.

My point about Arnold is that if someone can dwarf 30 year old men at 19 years old he is likely not a good candidate to learn from.

593

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
stuff

You got that from here:
http://www.schwarzenegger-interactive.com/workout.html
Which also stated on the home page:
This site was not created by Arnold Schwarzenegger, nor is it in anyway personally affiliated with him. This is just a fan tribute site created as a resource to bodybuilding fans.

This is not how Arnold trained himself. If you want that, take a look at his encyclopedia or any of the other books he released. This is the first I have ever heard someone try to say he trained TBT to get to where he was when competing.

If you want an idea of a workout for him, go here:
http://www.davedraper.com/mag-team-up-to-train.html

He believed in HIGH VOLUME and training very often, not only three days a week.

From Joe Weider:
You have to appreciate that their union as great training partners pushed them and made them great muscle men. Both men were very strong. I still have many of my old journals describing these workouts, the training sessions these two made together.

Picking out a page, I see on a six-day-a-week schedule, they trained on a double split (!), where they did the following on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, for example:

BACK, BICEPS & FOREARMS

A double split and training six days a week sounds like TBT?

There is a difference between those who have actually researched this info…and those who do quick internet searches to find whatever supports what they already want to believe.

Your espn abilities are broke Prof. X, I got that from this site Old School Bodybuilding - The Arnold Schwarzenegger Workout Routine. I have already looked at a book I already own unless your saying I need to keep updating from volume 2.

A listed routine doesn’t have to be from a site personally affialiated with him, to be his routine. Are you saying he never done this? I can respect if you just don’t trust it but I believe it to be true based on seeing the same information from many reputable sites.

I do remember asking what is TBT?, which case I got no answer so I use My personal reference which I defined as (chest, back, legs same day). This is clearly what he did in the routine I stated above, even though his arms were split.

This is also the same amount of volume your fellow thread split supporters seemed to imply wouldn’t work because a persons intensity would wane.

Now you reference a routine from a partner that he trained with for a short period of time nearly 10 years after he already started competing which means he already had size on him, how much more size did he generate on this program from when he started.

When going back to the his books and biographies before trying to be governor he said numerous times he trained every body part every day went home and drank beer with his pals. Did this not play a major role in his building size?

Are you saying the split he did years later with Dave, packed on more weight then his early years? or his time with Weider? or the few years before?[/quote]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_12_20/ai_98488428/pg_5

I suppose that if SPLITTING chest/back with legs in an AM/PM SPLIT is considered TBT, then I guess Arnold was king TBT.

594

Still, saying that TBT was better cos you lacked time doesnt mean it IS better. What works better is the method which allows you to grow the most when optimum conditions are available (or at least what is considered optimal for the majority of lifters who take bodybuilding SERIOUSLY).

In that case, TBT would appear to not be the ideal system. Why people are talking about “but if i only have 3 hrs a week” is irrelevant. That doesnt mean TBT is the most efficient system.

So if your car hasnt made it to 160mph because you only ever driven in a 30 zone, does that mean that its not fast? No. Its hella fast, you’re just not using its potential.

595

[quote]silverbullet wrote:
I just read an article about how full body training is better than splits. The article ALMOST but not quite went as far as to say that if you were doing splits.

You wouldn�??t make gains unless you were on drugs. Now I�??ve build some descent muscle so far drug free and on a split routine. So I don�??t understand why people would say that splits are useless???

I�??m incredibly curious about this. Because if I�??m building muscle using an inferior method, then theoretically I should explode if I switch to full body or an upper lower split (the only split the article thought would be beneficial drug free)

I take a look at the guys in the powerful images. Could you build a body like that using full body training???
[/quote]

I wouldn’t say that one is better than the other. In my opinion, split routines are better suited for more advanced lifters (lifters who have to periodize their workouts and can’t make linear gains).

Dedicating a whole day to biceps makes little sense when you weigh 150 lbs and have no arms to speak of. For a novice lifter it would make more sense to use compound exercises; lots of squats, deadlifts and presses to build a solid base before worrying about them curlz or a split routine.

Somone who’s already built a really solid base has to increase the volume per workout would need a split routine.

As far as the steroid comment with split routines, it really depends how much volume they are talking about. People doing steroids usually train at higher volume than naturals; because they can recover from training faster.

It’s a stupid argument really; two tools with different applications.

596

[quote]kensai01 wrote:
silverbullet wrote:
For a novice lifter it would make more sense to use compound exercises; lots of squats, deadlifts and presses to build a solid base before worrying about them curlz or a split routine.
[/quote]

Sorry to be rude but have you read the fucking thread? Who does split and doesnt do compounds?

597

[quote]Neebone wrote:
kensai01 wrote:
silverbullet wrote:
For a novice lifter it would make more sense to use compound exercises; lots of squats, deadlifts and presses to build a solid base before worrying about them curlz or a split routine.

Sorry to be rude but have you read the fucking thread? Who does split and doesnt do compounds?
[/quote]

Right; I meant compound exercises in a full body fashion per workout. IE; Squat/press/pull variations

VS legs/back/chest/arms

Plus have you ever been to a regular gym; TONS of people do splits without ANY compounds. I’ve seen tons of people hit up the eliptical, then get a reall good bicep burn and jet. Not that you’ll get any results w/o compounds, but whatever haha.

598

[quote]kensai01 wrote:

Plus have you ever been to a regular gym; TONS of people do splits without ANY compounds. [/quote]

Who gives a shit about what tons of clueless people do? They don’t represent “split training” so why even bring them up?

I hate even using the term “split training”. No one used to cut out certain exercises which is all some of you are recommending.

When I weighed 150lbs, I am VERY glad I did curls along with everything else. I feel sorry for the newbies being confronted with some of the crap in this thread.

Again, why is anyone who has not built a large amount of muscle mass typing anything in this thread?

Kensai, you weigh 176lbs at 5’11"…and you are debating what is optimal to gain large amounts of muscle mass.

599

[quote]Professor X wrote:
When I weighed 150lbs, I am VERY glad I did curls along with everything else. I feel sorry for the newbies being confronted with some of the crap in this thread.
[/quote]

I’m very glad that I’ve learned this lesson relatively early. For a while, I wasn’t doing any isolation work for biceps, and even though I was gaining weight, my biceps were staying the same size.

I know that some people’s arms take over rowing/chin movements and might be able to build some size on them that way, but my back is way too far ahead of my arm development for that to work.

600

[quote]mrw173 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
When I weighed 150lbs, I am VERY glad I did curls along with everything else. I feel sorry for the newbies being confronted with some of the crap in this thread.

I’m very glad that I’ve learned this lesson relatively early. For a while, I wasn’t doing any isolation work for biceps, and even though I was gaining weight, my biceps were staying the same size. I know that some people’s arms take over rowing/chin movements and might be able to build some size on them that way, but my back is way too far ahead of my arm development for that to work.[/quote]

I’m the opposite, I was a bench n curl kind of guy for a few months, I cut out the bicep work a while back so my back could catch up. Now that it has, I’m reintroducing bicep movements.