[quote]Professor X wrote:
X, how tall are you? You are a rather large man.
I am 5’10.5 or over 5’11" in shoes. I am bigger now than in that picture.
[/quote]
No you must be a wrestler or something. Only a freak can grow with split training at the beginning.
[quote]Gup wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Thanks prof X but 28 pages and from 2005!!!
Any one page or post you can direct me to for a decent BB routine? Thanks![/quote]
This was weak.
Basically, someone could come along, drop a book right in front of you with everything they did to go from skinny to big and most of the people here would say, “could you turn the pages for me and summarize?”.
Pathetic is too weak a word.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
BSrunner wrote:
As far as I understand, the argument that Prof x and other guys are making doesn’t apply to beginners, correct?
Wrong. The argument I am making is that it makes no sense to avoid using a split routine from the very beginning especially if you plan to stand out in a crowd. This idea that beginners need TBT is a marketing gimmick. Most really big guys didn’t do anything drastically different in their training from what they always did, progressively going heavier and heavier while not ignoring individual muscle groups or treating them as if isolation exercises are less important or irrelevant. [/quote]
I see. I agree in the sense that I also know a lot of really big guys at my gym that have been doing the same five day split since they were 16. I have read articles by “professionals” (This site, Menshealth) that total body work outs or upper/lower splits are the way to go for most beginners. I guess I sort of just started believing them and I made some decent gains on an upper/lower split and then rippetoe’s 3x5 (may have just been because of the eating?).
[quote]
I mean, as far as theories go, it makes sense that beginners would see greater gains of LBM from a total body style of training versus splits, right?
Why do you believe this? It makes no sense to come to that conclusion. You are just repeating what you heard somewhere. [/quote]
I read it from authors that belong to this site (CW, Nate Green are the two most recent examples).
[quote]
This gain in body mass can be attributed to many reasons, such as the sudden increase in athletic activity and a greater load than the body is used to handling. The total sudden increase in load would be greater if the beginner started off doing exclusively deadlifts, squats, bench press and pull ups rather than using a four day split that includes a separate day for shoulders and a separate day for arms.
Why do you think someone using a split routine is somehow missing out on “sudden increase in athletic activity and a greater load than the body is used to handling”?[/quote]
I don’t believe that someone using a split routine is missing out on a sudden increase in athletic activity and a greater load than the body is used to handling. I do believe that someone using primarily compound lifts (Squats, Bench, Deadlift, Pullups/row) would have a total greater applicable increase in load on the body and athletic activity. In theory (read: Theory), by sticking to the basics I listed, you are stimulating the entire body and forcing it to adapt by packing on weight and muscle. Also, you are working the whole body, forcing your vasculature to work harder during every work out, as opposed to increasing blood flow to one part of your body.
This isn’t to detract the severity of the stimulus that follows from a split; I just think that isolating the 4 pound muscles in your upper arm is not a good way to spend your time if you are trying to put on full body mass. You could be eating, sleeping, or bench pressing.
And of course there are different strokes for different folks. Isolating my arms and shoulders never helped me grow as much as I am nowadays. I am also not as interested in symmetry right now as some of you guys are. Once I get to a respectable body weight, I am going to start worrying about that.
How long ago was that? Is it true that you’ve been lifting for 10 years (your profile)?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Basically, someone could come along, drop a book right in front of you with everything they did to go from skinny to big and most of the people here would say, “could you turn the pages for me and summarize?”.
[/quote]
This is the kind of people who will never reach that level.
Prof,
This is what it’s come down to. These people have the attention span of a pea-brained three-year old!
They want us to work for free; that is, they want us to take one to two decades of wisdom and experience and studying, depending on how old each one of us is, and to give it to them… for FREE! God forbid they read a book or article from start to finish and actually apply or discard what they just read!
Even if they do get guidance from some patient sap or read an article or book, they don’t follow the advice and instead come up with a million fucking questions of why a diet or training method is set up the way it is or think of some dumb-ass off-the-wall shit to alter it. They’ll read a book with fancy nutritional strategies like Justin Harris’ book, UD2, Bodyopus - diets that they have business doing in the first place - and then come up with the weirdest shit in the world to counter what they just read! “What if I extend the carbup?” “He said 1 gram per pound. What if I take in 1.25 per pound?” “He said full-body workouts; what I do an upper-lower split?”
Anyone with half a brain can read the rather simply written posts and articles on this site. What are there, thousands of articles written on here already, let alone the hundreds of thousands of articles available to read on the net and in newsstand magazines, not to mention thousands of paperback and electronic books to look at as well?! Now you and I have to fucking look this shit up… for free!
Then you have guys on here looking for us to analyze diets. Sorry guys! I’m not getting my pen, calculator, and notepad out to calculate the macronutrient percentages and calories of your diet, nor will I spend another half hour to 45 minutes calculating a new one for you! Either get a basic book on nutrition and calculate your own diet OR…
… hire a fucking training or nutrition professional if you don’t have the patience or ability to interpret media or are simply unteachable!
[quote]BSrunner wrote:
I read it from authors that belong to this site (CW, Nate Green are the two most recent examples). [/quote]
Maybe that is what your problem is. At least one of those guys literally HATES bodybuilding/bodybuilders…yet seems to market his routines to those with the desire to get bigger muscles. Strange.
[quote]
I don’t believe that someone using a split routine is missing out on a sudden increase in athletic activity and a greater load than the body is used to handling. I do believe that someone using primarily compound lifts (Squats, Bench, Deadlift, Pullups/row) would have a total greater applicable increase in load on the body and athletic activity. [/quote]
I’m sorry, but why the hell do you think I left out “[quote]Squats, Bench, Deadlift, Pullups/row[/quote]”? I am tired of seeing this. I press well over 400lbs every single time I train chest. How about you? Do you think I did that by avoiding the fucking bench press? The only thing I don’t do now is deadlifts and I even did those early on. The “pull up” itself isn’t being ignored by most people either so why even bring this up as if it is “all isolation exercises” or “all compound movements”?
This entire paragraph was ridiculous. I have a feeling the size and strength of my arms justifies training them directly.
[quote]
X, how tall are you? You are a rather large man.
I am 5’10.5 or over 5’11" in shoes. I am bigger now than in that picture.
How long ago was that? Is it true that you’ve been lifting for 10 years (your profile)?[/quote]
That picture is well over 8 or 9 years old.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
trextacy wrote:
The logic that bodybuilding = pro bodybuilding only means that we should also do all the drugs they do. I don’t care that they do them, but my point is that looking at what the elite, extreme .00001% of guys do and expect to mimic that is ridiculous.
Or maybe what’s ridiculous is concocting strawman arguments like this.
Hint: everyone here knows many lifters outside your “0.00001%” doing better with split training.
Didn’t we just cite the very many natural bb’ers that are doing so well with split training?
What, is Professor X for example in the “0.00001” percent? (Granted he is more gifted than most, but do you put him in the top one-hundred-thousandth-of-one-percent?)
Am I in the top one-hundred-thousandth-of-one-percent? (I have tried both thoroughly and generally speaking split routine works better for me.) What would be a better question, actually, is am I even in the top half for genetics. Tough call there, I would think right at about the 50th percentile though certainly quite possibly lower.
If you have to reach for strawman arguments like this, that suggests quite a lot about the quality of your argument. It DEPENDS on bogus statements like that. Really you had no choice.
Hey, good news everybody! All of us who have found from experience we do better with split routines are in the top one-hundred-thousandth-of-one-percent! Aren’t we special! Doesn’t that just make your day.
[/quote]
You entirely missed the point. Let me help you out:
The crying about a post about TBT as being antithetical to the bodybuilding nature of the forum is bullshit. The are full body approaches that are completely consistent with “bodybuilding”. I was breaking down the strawman that the self-appointed board hall monitors created-- that a full body program is per se “anti-bodybuilding”- well, it isn’t.
There are some solid full body programs out there. Whether it’s in line with someone’s goals at the moment is an individual thing.
The bottom line is this- every time this question is asked, the usual suspects rip their hair out and make these threads 100+ post nightmares…all the while decrying the state of things relative to their little sandbox. The irony is, all of this just makes them feel more “hardcore”. The thing is, those folks are the ones that always end up with 80% of the posts on the thread.
Oh, and I picked the .000001% out the air- my point was that defining bodybuilding as “pro bodybuilding” or wanting to weigh 280 lbs is a pretty narrow definition. And split training is not what I was talking about. I’m not saying “splits=pros”…perhaps I wasn’t clear. I use a split and prefer a split. To say that full body programs aren’t complete shit doesn’t mean that I think splits suck. It doesn’t have to be either/or.
The fact is that certain people around here are heavily emotionally invested in tearing down a particular contributor- Chad Waterbury. Nice fucking life…he made some statements to get a rise out of people and succeeded. Well done.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Mr.Purple wrote:
tribunaldude wrote:
Squelchy put up his pics on this thread, interestingly in another full body vs TBT war lol
http://www.menshealth.co.uk/chatroom/topic/308846/
he has changed his username from “Squelchy” to “…” .
He has some development to look above average compared to most weekend warriors, but come
on dude. The guy is a little small and a bit soft (strictly from a BBing standpoint of course) but definitely athletic-looking.
Holy Christ, that thread is infantile. There are the pics though, even if he didn’t put them up himself. Your turn, X 
How much is he weighing in those pics?
I didn’t post this to degrade someone else’s progress. However, like I have seen with quite a few others, those who seem to train using TBT end up looking like they now need to bring up lagging body parts. His traps are weakly developed along with his lateral delts.
That has actually been my primary argument against it from the beginning, that newbies will end up with imbalances if they never consider isolation as being very important.
I was weighing about 210lbs in this picture. It has also been posted several times before. Genetics aside, I believe using a decent split routine from the start will keep someone from causing entire muscle groups to lag behind others.
And no, I am not insulting his development since he has made progress.[/quote]
You could come up with a full body program that consists entirely of isolation movements. In the same way that it’s wrong for someone to say that splits don’t use compounds, it’s also incorrect to deride full body for not using isolation movements- if a particular program leaves out direct isolation movements then the program is lacking. You can (and should) use isolation movements on any program.
I think the FB approach is more for the ‘Menshealth’ crowd (note that I dont include the people in the magazine, who obviously have spent a lot of time training, more the average joes who read it)
Your typical beer bellied 30 year old looking to get into shape without much dedication would be best suited for a FB, its not as damaging when he misses a workout, its not as much time in the gym, and he’ll be hitting all the biggest muscles.
But if you want to be anything more than an average gym go’er, then I have to agree with Prof X in that splits are the best way to build a well balanced physique without lagging muscles.
Anonymas, you’re right. If a guy doesn’t follow a 4- to 5-way split, he’s just an undedicated AVERAGE JOE.
I live in one of the five boroughs of New York City. I have quite a few friends and acquaintances that work LIKE FUCKING MANIACS in the very demanding and unpredictable fields of public relations, advertising, law, and sales; some of them work 6 days and 60 to 70 hours week! They also like to be normal human beings who hang out with women and friends… and perhaps their KIDS.
Boss: "I need you in NOW! Our client is in a crisis.
Them: “Sorry chief; I gotta work my pecs tonight.”
They do this because… well, you know… they’re “undedicated”! And they succeed in these fields because… well, you know… they’re “average”. And some of them earn mid-six-figure salaries because… well, you know… they’re “average” and “undedicated”!
After telling me that with the stressors of work and life, they can’t make it to the gym that often, don’t want to be huge, nor do they have the lifestyle to do that, I advise them to follow an upper-lower split or a TBT routine 2 to 3 times per week and fit cardio in when they can because THAT is what suits them. They thank me weeks later after realizing that this sort of routine is more in line with what they were looking for to match their work and lifestyle.
And yeah, Men’s Health is only for dorks and undedicated losers. I mean, it’s really loserish for men to read a magazine to get advice on nutrition, health, career, finance, and women… all because the main theme of the mag is not to… GET HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE!
Oh, I have another undedicated gym-loser for ya: my uncle. I mean, he’s all undedicated because he doesn’t want to get huge and follow a split routine that is completely out of line with his lifestyle or health goals. He works 6 days per week, 10 hours per day, and has a one-hour commute to and from work. He supports two kids and a wife and has a nice house in an upper-middle class neighborhood. Oh, on top of his work, he likes to spend time with his kids. He does a TBT routine. He does all this because… well, you know… he’s “undedicated”.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Anonymas, you’re right. If a guy doesn’t follow a 4- to 5-way split, he’s just an undedicated AVERAGE JOE.
I live in one of the five boroughs of New York City. I have quite a few friends and acquaintances that work LIKE FUCKING MANIACS in the very demanding and unpredictable fields of public relations, advertising, law, and sales; some of them work 6 days and 60 to 70 hours week! They also like to be normal human beings who hang out with women and friends… and perhaps their KIDS.
Boss: "I need you in NOW! Our client is in a crisis.
Them: “Sorry chief; I gotta work my pecs tonight.”
They do this because… well, you know… they’re “undedicated”! And they succeed in these fields because… well, you know… they’re “average”. And some of them earn mid-six-figure salaries because… well, you know… they’re “average” and “undedicated”!
After telling me that with the stressors of work and life, they can’t make it to the gym that often, don’t want to be huge, nor do they have the lifestyle to do that, I advise them to follow an upper-lower split or a TBT routine 2 to 3 times per week and fit cardio in when they can because THAT is what suits them. They thank me weeks later after realizing that this sort of routine is more in line with what they were looking for to match their work and lifestyle.
And yeah, Men’s Health is only for dorks and undedicated losers. I mean, it’s really loserish for men to read a magazine to get advice on nutrition, health, career, finance, and women… all because the main theme of the mag is not to… GET HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE!
Oh, I have another undedicated gym-loser for ya: my uncle. I mean, he’s all undedicated because he doesn’t want to get huge and follow a split routine that is completely out of line with his lifestyle or health goals. He works 6 days per week, 10 hours per day, and has a one-hour commute to and from work. He supports two kids and a wife and has a nice house in an upper-middle class neighborhood. Oh, on top of his work, he likes to spend time with his kids. He does a TBT routine. He does all this because… well, you know… he’s “undedicated”.[/quote]
My goodness… feel better?
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Anonymas, you’re right. If a guy doesn’t follow a 4- to 5-way split, he’s just an undedicated AVERAGE JOE.
I live in one of the five boroughs of New York City. I have quite a few friends and acquaintances that work LIKE FUCKING MANIACS in the very demanding and unpredictable fields of public relations, advertising, law, and sales; some of them work 6 days and 60 to 70 hours week! They also like to be normal human beings who hang out with women and friends… and perhaps their KIDS.
Boss: "I need you in NOW! Our client is in a crisis.
Them: “Sorry chief; I gotta work my pecs tonight.”
They do this because… well, you know… they’re “undedicated”! And they succeed in these fields because… well, you know… they’re “average”. And some of them earn mid-six-figure salaries because… well, you know… they’re “average” and “undedicated”!
After telling me that with the stressors of work and life, they can’t make it to the gym that often, don’t want to be huge, nor do they have the lifestyle to do that, I advise them to follow an upper-lower split or a TBT routine 2 to 3 times per week and fit cardio in when they can because THAT is what suits them. They thank me weeks later after realizing that this sort of routine is more in line with what they were looking for to match their work and lifestyle.
And yeah, Men’s Health is only for dorks and undedicated losers. I mean, it’s really loserish for men to read a magazine to get advice on nutrition, health, career, finance, and women… all because the main theme of the mag is not to… GET HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE!
Oh, I have another undedicated gym-loser for ya: my uncle. I mean, he’s all undedicated because he doesn’t want to get huge and follow a split routine that is completely out of line with his lifestyle or health goals. He works 6 days per week, 10 hours per day, and has a one-hour commute to and from work. He supports two kids and a wife and has a nice house in an upper-middle class neighborhood. Oh, on top of his work, he likes to spend time with his kids. He does a TBT routine. He does all this because… well, you know… he’s “undedicated”.[/quote]
I understand where you’re coming from, but this post misses the point. No one is saying these individuals working 60+ hrs/wk, with families, who manage to do a few TBT workouts/wk are undedicated. But, they are more dedicated to these other obligations as opposed to training. And, that’s okay.
Yes, if they want the benefits of training while still making time for other interests and obligations, I have no problem with them performing TBT at all. It may be their best option, all things considered. And while they can BUILD their bodies with these programs, they are not BODYBUILDING.
Until evidence is provided that clearly demonstrates a world-class natural OR enhanced bodybuilding physique can be achieved solely through TBT these arguments will persist. When certain gurus try to paint anyone over 220 lbs as either fat, steroid-using, or fat and steroid-using idiots who know nothing about training “the proper way” and subsequently try to sell a seemingly “enlighted” albeit unproven approach for achieving “anti-bodybuilding hypertrophy”–which, to me, implies that a bodybuilding physique can be obtained by not training like the best bodybuilders in the world–they muyst show the damned proof.
Where are the world-class bodybuilders training excusively with TBT? Where are the upcoming world-class bodybuilders training with TBT? Where is anyone with a physique that makes people look in amazement and say, “Holy shit, that mutha fucka is jacked!” who has training exclusively with TBT?
So, the problem isn’t with people who train with TBT who don’t want to create a commotion when they walk down the street. It’s with the authors who claim you can achieve that level of development with TBT and that bodybuilders are stupid, and the poor saps who blindly believe them.
well u just reiterated my point rly, i mean none of those examples are very dedicated to bodybuilding, and so a FB works well for them
I see I started a ruckus. Awesome. Carry on…
I found these comparison photos of Squlchy on Menshealth, I think he made great progress in that timeframe, and using TBT.
you guys are missing the point.
Pushharder uses TBT and he is one of the best developed 70 year olds I have ever seen. However, I believe he has his individual reasons for using that - and OI;m sure he won;t argue that TBT is the best way, or even a greta way to approach bodybuilding aside from the initial years of lifting.
This forum is supposed to be attracting the genetically “sounder” variety of people - and if you see your best gains with TBT (muscle imbalances notwithstanding) and are not able to recover from a BP split - that ain’t you.
Stick to menshealth.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Anonymas, you’re right. If a guy doesn’t follow a 4- to 5-way split, he’s just an undedicated AVERAGE JOE.
I live in one of the five boroughs of New York City. I have quite a few friends and acquaintances that work LIKE FUCKING MANIACS in the very demanding and unpredictable fields of public relations, advertising, law, and sales; some of them work 6 days and 60 to 70 hours week! They also like to be normal human beings who hang out with women and friends… and perhaps their KIDS.
Boss: "I need you in NOW! Our client is in a crisis.
Them: “Sorry chief; I gotta work my pecs tonight.”
They do this because… well, you know… they’re “undedicated”! And they succeed in these fields because… well, you know… they’re “average”. And some of them earn mid-six-figure salaries because… well, you know… they’re “average” and “undedicated”!
After telling me that with the stressors of work and life, they can’t make it to the gym that often, don’t want to be huge, nor do they have the lifestyle to do that, I advise them to follow an upper-lower split or a TBT routine 2 to 3 times per week and fit cardio in when they can because THAT is what suits them. They thank me weeks later after realizing that this sort of routine is more in line with what they were looking for to match their work and lifestyle.
And yeah, Men’s Health is only for dorks and undedicated losers. I mean, it’s really loserish for men to read a magazine to get advice on nutrition, health, career, finance, and women… all because the main theme of the mag is not to… GET HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE!
Oh, I have another undedicated gym-loser for ya: my uncle. I mean, he’s all undedicated because he doesn’t want to get huge and follow a split routine that is completely out of line with his lifestyle or health goals. He works 6 days per week, 10 hours per day, and has a one-hour commute to and from work. He supports two kids and a wife and has a nice house in an upper-middle class neighborhood. Oh, on top of his work, he likes to spend time with his kids. He does a TBT routine. He does all this because… well, you know… he’s “undedicated”.[/quote]
This is a bodybuilding forum. I am not sure if leaving it at that is enough considering this current response from you. Someone IS lacking dedication if their goal is BODYBUILDING yet they can’t make the time for it or prioritize it.
There seems to be a large divide between actually trying to stand out…and following the Men’s Health crowd that is happy if they simply make their abs show.
Maybe the solution is a “men’s fitness” forum where all of you can congregate and talk about how your busy schedules prevent you all from training more than 2 times a week. That way when we post in the BODYBUILDING forum, we can actually discuss BODYBUILDING without worrying about those who don’t have that as a priority at all.
Further, it is an insult to the rest of us any time one of you brings up someone else’s career or “life stressors” as an excuse for not having time when many of us are professionals ourselves who do not have careers that have anything at all to do with bodybuilding.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
you guys are missing the point.
Pushharder uses TBT and he is one of the best developed 70 year olds I have ever seen. However, I believe he has his individual reasons for using that - and OI;m sure he won;t argue that TBT is the best way, or even a greta way to approach bodybuilding aside from the initial years of lifting.
This forum is supposed to be attracting the genetically “sounder” variety of people - and if you see your best gains with TBT (muscle imbalances notwithstanding) and are not able to recover from a BP split - that ain’t you.
Stick to menshealth.[/quote]
Well said. If you simply can’t make gains except for minimal gains using TBT, this activity may not be for you. Stick to simply trying to make your abs show if somehow a body part split simply causes no increase in muscle mass for you.
This endeavor is not for the people with the weakest genetics in the country. Our posts are likewise not aimed at people who simply can’t make progress using any more traditional methods.
Also, squelchy, yes, you do need direct arm work. Either that or you guys have far lesser goals or standards than the rest of us. I’m not going to post my biceps shot from that same day I posted earlier. But I can tell you my arms were FAR more along than yours and the idea that biceps shouldn’t be trained directly sure doesn’t seem to be panning out for most of you.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
you guys are missing the point.
So yeah after a few months some TBT people will have a lagging bodypart, don’t alert the CIA but they sometimes follow a routine to correct that afterwards. Keep that on the hush though I’m not sure if routine switching has been legalized yet.
But guess what there are even BP split guys that change the routine…SHHHHHH!!!. I saw it on an black ops underground website called muscular development. This huuuuggeee guy went to Charles glass for a few weeks because his chest was lagging… WOW!!! can you believe it… He did splits and actually had a lagging bodypart…Oh Shit Batman!!. I bet you he was secretly doing TBT in his basement.