Thoughts?
I think in the future, virtually every low to moderate level mental/emotional health issue will have both a specific label & (much more disturbing than that) a drug to combat it’s negative effects. The more we labellize & medicalize everything, the further we go from producing well-adjusted, SELF-accountable human beings.
I’m pretty sure at least 80%+ of all young children (even many adolescents & even many adults) are at least mildly anti-authoritarian, the only problem comes when being a BIT anti-authoritarian clashes with the pragmatic compromise EVERY normal, healthy minded individual has to make between complying with stupid shit & complying with his or her preferences, ethics etc
What next…
Skinny-fat syndrome pills
Crazy ex gf passive-agressive suppositories
Obnoxious accountant aversion therapy
Lobotomize fat kids
Anti-paedo GPS tazer therapy!!!
Intellectually pretentious subcutaneous roll-on
Anti-rage rusks!
Infidelity avoidance ointment
Atheist intolerance tablets
The list could very well go & likely will…honestly, this kind of BS is one of the number of reasons why I’m not overly keen on having kids. Society, nowadays (one way or another) seeks to EXTERNALIZE everything!!
Agree 100%
"I have found that most psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals are not only extraordinarily compliant with authorities but also unaware of the magnitude of their obedience. And it also has become clear to me that the anti-authoritarianism of their patients creates enormous anxiety for these professionals, and their anxiety fuels diagnoses and treatments. "
Awsome, he put something in to words that I only had a gut feeling about!
And acting like an asshole can have very negative consequences. Einsteins are one thing, lazy dumbasses are another.
And acting like an asshole can have very negative consequences. Einsteins are one thing, lazy dumbasses are another.
Using Einstein and Alinsky as examples doesn’t do much to illustrate the point since Einstein and Alinsky are outliers.
By his examples, everyone who has been diagnosed with “anti-authoritairanism” is like Einstein and Alinsky which we all know isn’t true.
Not to mention there are plenty of adult “anti-authoritarians” around who aren’t drugged up.
Not a bad premise, but I think it needs more evidence and data to back it up
Hmm, if the article is true that is some scary shit. I hope it’s not happening in North America, although there are a few indications along these lines in the current US political climate. People too outside the typical narrative are marginalized as being “like a crazy uncle.”
In the Soviet Union in the 1950s, under Stalin, those who criticized the state were often labeled as mentally ill and committed to “asylums,” (prison camps) in Siberia. On the surface, it’s a good way for a government to silence political opponents while actually seeming to be “sympathetic and caring” about mental health issues. As long as no one looked to closely into those “asylums,” it probably made Stalin look better compared to the way he handled Leon Trotsky or the population of Ukraine.
[quote]BobParr wrote:
Hmm, if the article is true that is some scary shit. I hope it’s not happening in North America, although there are a few indications along these lines in the current US political climate. People too outside the typical narrative are marginalized as being “like a crazy uncle.”
In the Soviet Union in the 1950s, under Stalin, those who criticized the state were often labeled as mentally ill and committed to “asylums,” (prison camps) in Siberia. On the surface, it’s a good way for a government to silence political opponents while actually seeming to be “sympathetic and caring” about mental health issues. As long as no one looked to closely into those “asylums,” it probably made Stalin look better compared to the way he handled Leon Trotsky or the population of Ukraine.
[/quote]
There is an awesome Russian sci-fi book, where there is a whole culture that is oh so enlightened, their ships have no weapons and they care for every sentient being, even the ones not in their culture.
Turns out they are hunted down like dogs by other cultures after a rebellion, because their “caring” is basically full fledged social engineering, they believe in rescuing people from themselves and their unarmed ships have sensor arrays that can wipe out whole fleets, all in self defense of course.
What I especially like about it that they seem to be ok at first glance… or the second and third and the more you learn about them the more disturbing they become. At least in the first book you also never know whether they really mean what they say and are just very, very misguided, or if they just spout of nonsense in order to gain control over other cultures.
I wish I could remember the name because I know that there is a sequel…
Anyhow, the point is that there is a point where “caring” for other people becomes indistinguishable from tyranny.
Also, War on Drugs.
^ way to get my hopes up … I want to read that book now!
Good post, Orion. As a sci fi fan, I would love to read the book you have in mind.
I agree, there can be a fine line between caring and tyranny. And it can sometimes even start off as good intentions.
We’re already headed there with stuff like local laws against trans-fat. OK, sure, trans-fats are bad, but people should be free to make up their own minds about they eat. If we go down this road, it won’t be long before some skinny-fat bureaucrat decides to ban whey powder and levy heavy taxes on meat and eggs because “too much protein can wreck your kidneys.”
Found it:
The Stars Are Cold Toys from Sergej Lukanjenko
A warning though, this book is very Russian, meaning he has no problem whatsoever in going off on a tangent for a hundred pages or so if he feels that it is warranted.
So, if you have ever read Dostojewki and despaired, this is not your kind of book.
[quote]orion wrote:
Found it:
The Stars Are Cold Toys from Sergej Lukanjenko
A warning though, this book is very Russian, meaning he has no problem whatsoever in going off on a tangent for a hundred pages or so if he feels that it is warranted.
So, if you have ever read Dostojewki and despaired, this is not your kind of book.[/quote]
muchas gracias
I’m assuming Dotojewki = Dostoyevsky
[quote]Erasmus wrote:
Agree 100%
"I have found that most psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals are not only extraordinarily compliant with authorities but also unaware of the magnitude of their obedience. And it also has become clear to me that the anti-authoritarianism of their patients creates enormous anxiety for these professionals, and their anxiety fuels diagnoses and treatments. "
Awsome, he put something in to words that I only had a gut feeling about![/quote]
I’ve always had this feeling, and I think it extends to a lot of doctors too. I think doing things “by the book” is a very effective way to cover your ass in a profession where mistakes can be lethal.
My personal experience regarding the prevalence of anti-authoritarianism among college students: Over the past year, I’ve been working on a decision-support system for academic advising - basically, a computer program which helps students decide which classes to take, and then explains why. We don’t really intend to deploy the system - my research is on some of the mathematical models involved and how to best translate those models into english for non-technical users - academic advising just happens to be a very easy thing to study in a University setting, as we can easily get a lot of anonymous survey data.
Here’s the thing: when we actually started doing surveys, we found that a shockingly large proportion of students were compliant with any information that they perceived as coming from an authority figure. Many students didn’t need or want an explanation from the system, the recommendation to take the course, because it was perceived as authoritative, was convincing in its own right. This effect was much greater among the sophomore-level psychology class that we surveyed than it was among the sophomore-level engineering class. These are people who are paying something like $10k+/year for an education, and they are willing to take the output of some random computer program on faith simply because it’s presented to them by someone they perceive as an authority figure!
You can come up with a dozen hypotheses to explain the effect, it’s possible, for example, that this is just a reflection on how little college students value actual education vs. achieving a degree, but we still found the data pretty shocking at first.
[quote]tom8658 wrote:
actual education vs. achieving a degree[/quote]
this is truer than true
[quote]tom8658 wrote:
[quote]Erasmus wrote:
Agree 100%
"I have found that most psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals are not only extraordinarily compliant with authorities but also unaware of the magnitude of their obedience. And it also has become clear to me that the anti-authoritarianism of their patients creates enormous anxiety for these professionals, and their anxiety fuels diagnoses and treatments. "
Awsome, he put something in to words that I only had a gut feeling about![/quote]
I’ve always had this feeling, and I think it extends to a lot of doctors too. I think doing things “by the book” is a very effective way to cover your ass in a profession where mistakes can be lethal.
My personal experience regarding the prevalence of anti-authoritarianism among college students: Over the past year, I’ve been working on a decision-support system for academic advising - basically, a computer program which helps students decide which classes to take, and then explains why. We don’t really intend to deploy the system - my research is on some of the mathematical models involved and how to best translate those models into english for non-technical users - academic advising just happens to be a very easy thing to study in a University setting, as we can easily get a lot of anonymous survey data.
Here’s the thing: when we actually started doing surveys, we found that a shockingly large proportion of students were compliant with any information that they perceived as coming from an authority figure. Many students didn’t need or want an explanation from the system, the recommendation to take the course, because it was perceived as authoritative, was convincing in its own right. This effect was much greater among the sophomore-level psychology class that we surveyed than it was among the sophomore-level engineering class. These are people who are paying something like $10k+/year for an education, and they are willing to take the output of some random computer program on faith simply because it’s presented to them by someone they perceive as an authority figure!
You can come up with a dozen hypotheses to explain the effect, it’s possible, for example, that this is just a reflection on how little college students value actual education vs. achieving a degree, but we still found the data pretty shocking at first.[/quote]
The way lots of people will accept what an authority says without question is pretty shocking.
My GF and I caught a documentary recently that repeated a classic psychological experiment from the 1950s to see if it would still work today. The experiment is supposedly to see if giving someone an escalating series of electric shocks will help them learn information more quickly. In reality, the shocks are phony and the actual person unknowingly being tested is the “assistant” who is put in charge of administering the shocks when the experimenter tells him or her to turn the dial.
At first, when the voice in the next room gives an incorrect answer, the assistants will administer a very mild shock and it’s no big deal. After a while, however, the fake “shock-ee” will be heard yelping and complaining of pain as the supposed shocks get more intense. Some people will stop at that point, but many others, urged on by the scientist in a lab coat overseeing the test, will continue giving the guy in the next room more juice whenever he gets an answer wrong.
Several people kept going even after the fake person was yelling he has a serious heart condition and can’t take any more shocks – all because the “authority figure” in the room kept urging them on by saying, “Don’t worry. Please continue.”
Perhaps it’s just that there are sadistic people who will gladly take advantage of having some official cover, but I think it’s also a case of too many people being willing to follow authority even when it runs counter to their principles or their common sense.
[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:
[quote]tom8658 wrote:
actual education vs. achieving a degree[/quote]
this is truer than true
[/quote]
Absolutely, and there are far, far too many people in college, but that’s a completely different topic.
[quote]BobParr wrote:
…
Perhaps it’s just that there are sadistic people who will gladly take advantage of having some official cover, but I think it’s also a case of too many people being willing to follow authority even when it runs counter to their principles or their common sense.[/quote]
That’s called the Milgram experiment, FYI. The PI was trying to understand why so many Germans participated in the Holocaust, despite the fact that it contradicted their own morals.
When Milgram polled students to ask them if, in the context of his setup, they thought that the final 450V shock would be administered, only something like 2% of respondents thought the subjects would carry all the way through. In reality something like 65% of the subjects would administer the final shock. So we’re also depressingly optimistic about our own tendencies to obey authority vs. our own morality.
[quote]Thomasm122 wrote:
http://www.alternet.org/health/154225/would_we_have_drugged_up_einstein_how_anti-authoritarianism_is_deemed_a_mental_health_problem
Thoughts?[/quote]
Whoa, I just took a quick look at some of the other articles in the issue you posted a link to. It’s a pretty left-wing publication, eh?
As a Libertarian with a strong streak of anti-authoritarianism running through me, I find it amusing they even published that article. Back in my 20s I was left-wing, but I came to realize I would no more trust someone to run my life and do my thinking for me because he has a string of Ivy League degrees and has read Foucault than I would because he’s read the bible and played Division 1 football. That’s what turned me off to politics: it’s all just a power-grab. I think we indeed do need more “mental health problems” in today’s world.
[quote]BobParr wrote:
[quote]Thomasm122 wrote:
http://www.alternet.org/health/154225/would_we_have_drugged_up_einstein_how_anti-authoritarianism_is_deemed_a_mental_health_problem
Thoughts?[/quote]
Whoa, I just took a quick look at some of the other articles in the issue you posted a link to. It’s a pretty left-wing publication, eh?
As a Libertarian with a strong streak of anti-authoritarianism running through me, I find it amusing they even published that article. Back in my 20s I was left-wing, but I came to realize I would no more trust someone to run my life and do my thinking for me because he has a string of Ivy League degrees and has read Foucault than I would because he’s read the bible and played Division 1 football. That’s what turned me off to politics: it’s all just a power-grab. I think we indeed do need more “mental health problems” in today’s world.[/quote]
And just imagine that there is not one, not a single one diagnosable condition if one is burdened with the unquenchable desire to control other peoples lives with money extracted from them at gunpoint.
One would assume that in a world where there is such a thing as restless leg syndrome there would be, alas, no.
I think there’s a lot of bullshit everywhere you look, call it what you may. That particular publication is the most interestingly legitimate online source for information irregardless of some of its’ prevalent biases, mainly because it publishes several times a month what I consider to be very valid, read-worthy works, specifically such as the one I posted. IMHO, a lot of the writers on that website have their heads up their asses as far as anyone else in the rest of the world, and to be completely honest, why should it be any different there than anywhere else? Secretly, I’ve been turned off to the preponderance of intellectual discussion, and maybe society in general, for the same reasons- the majority of problems we talk about and experience can all be traced back to, in some way, our stupidity.
I think we need more understanding in this world. How many psychological diagnoses are the result of someone being subjected to another’s ignorance? Abuse in all its’ various forms, prejudices, etc…
[quote]Thomasm122 wrote:
http://www.alternet.org/health/154225/would_we_have_drugged_up_einstein_how_anti-authoritarianism_is_deemed_a_mental_health_problem
Thoughts?[/quote]
Everything is a mental problem, if/how to solve it is a different type of science…
And wtf is up with those lose-your-belly-fat ads everywhere lately?