Another Gun Thread

Off Topic
61

[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:

you have to assume the criminal is armed. racking a shotgun, like i said earlier, gives away the element of surprise, your posistion, and the fact that you are armed. whos to say the criminal won’t blind fire in your directio as he runs away?
[/quote]

Well, you have to pick a spot to ambush him where he’s fully committed. You know from practicing room clearing that the best spot for the enemy to be is in the corner against the same wall as the door. You, the guy clearing the room, have to commit your entire body into the room before you see him.

He could try shooting you through the wall, but pistol rounds will slow way down through 2 layers of drywall. Plaster will probably stop them.

Again, most criminals do not want to deal with someone they know has a gun. If they hear the action being run on a shotgun, they will likely leave, which is better for everyone involved. No one needs to die and no one needs to call a lawyer.

The exception to this rule is if you’re a really valuable asset to someone. Most of us are not.

Well, that’s the purpose of an appropriate choke point and proper door and window security. The best thing is to keep him from getting in at all. Have dogs. Have security films and other measures on your windows. Have a door that can’t be kicked in. A lot of robberies and kidnapping in third world countries happen when you’re just walking in the door. They stake out your house and wait for you to unlock it. While you’re distracted with other things when you’re going in, they follow you in. These situations can be avoided with better situational awareness.

This is the advantage of buckshot, IMO. Compare the weights of the lead in 1 round of buckshot with the equivalent amount of lead from pistol rounds. 1 round of buckshot = 2-3 rounds of 9mm. Hopefully, more than 1 round will be unnecessary. You can hit a lot of pumps and valves with 1 round of buckshot.

Most criminals, like predators in the wild, want to simply avoid getting shot in the first place so they run when they hear the action on a firearm. This is really better for everyone. Filling out paperwork and explaining to the cops why you shot someone with the presence of a lawyer sounds a lot more scary to me than the criminal himself.

I have images of the criminal’s family suing me for the guy dying like those robbers that got shot to death in TExas.

Speaking of that, remember the Married With Children episode where Al beat up the robber in his house and the guy sued him and won? That was based on reality.

It’s f-d up, but there are a lot of anti-2nd amendment district attorneys out there. The cops may be on your side in the whole incident, but the DA might not be.

Another data point is that recent Yale student who hacked to death a robber who’d broken into his apartment with a samurai sword. The DA tossed around the idea of prosecuting him.

Always better judged by 12 than carried by 6, but still.

62

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

This is the advantage of buckshot, IMO. Compare the weights of the lead in 1 round of buckshot with the equivalent amount of lead from pistol rounds. 1 round of buckshot = 2-3 rounds of 9mm. Hopefully, more than 1 round will be unnecessary. You can hit a lot of pumps and valves with 1 round of buckshot.
[/quote]

but you’re not addressing my point. most of our wives/gfs/whatever do not shoot guns often. and especially during high stress situations, you see a breakdown of fine motor skills. this will most likely cause the operator of the firearm to shift focus from the target now to the operation/reloading of the firearm.

whereas if you were shooting my sexy little storm, all you have to worry about is keeping that little red dot on him and pulling the trigger again. you’re not even looking through optics or sights or whatever.

you say ‘hopefully you won’t need more than one shot’. of course you hope that, but what if you DO need one more shot? what if there are two guys? three? what if the first shot hits him in the leg, he falls down, and now he DOES draw a pistol on you?

i feel a shotgun at that point really isn’t what you would want.

edit* any other point of your previous post i didn’t address was because i more or less agreed with it

63

[quote]hedo wrote:
farmermaggot wrote:
HolyMacaroni wrote:
farmermaggot wrote:

The best tactic in home defense scenarios is usually to call it in to 911 and barricade yourself in a defensive position in a bedroom or bathroom. If you have kids of course you need to secure them first.

Think about it. The cops don’t clear a house alone if they know someone is in there. Your intruder is not about to attack a defended position and if he does you have cover and he doesn’t. Pursuing an intruder, armed, if you’ve never done it before has a low probability of success. If you’ve never pointed a gun at a man and pulled the trigger I can guarantee you that you will hesitate the first time.[/quote]

As someone who does house/building clearing, I can tell you we don’t do it alone because you don’t ever know the exact layout of the place (even with “the plans”), and even if you have a rough floor plan, you don’t know where all the places are people are able to hide, let alone all the shooting angles. This is especially true in modern “open” floor plan buildings. In your own home, that advantage tips to you because you do know all those things. You have one variable do deal with, where your intruder is. It’s probably not the best idea for someone with zero training do attempt, but since when does anyone take to heart advice like this off the internet? As for the hesitation factor, refer back to HolyMac’s post… 3 or more is preferable regardless how good a shot you are. If you’re going to convince your local PD or SO you were in fear for your life, one between the eyes isn’t your best option. Go ahead and tag the guy 3 to 6 times and maybe put one or two into a wall for good measure to sell how scared you really were.

64

[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
RJK wrote:

  1. A 20 guage shotgun will carry more knock down power in close quarters than your .45 b/c of the amount of powder in the shell and the extra lead.
  2. If you are using for home protection remember, it will most likely be at night, you just woke up, and need to act fast and accurately. Use a shotgun.

(sorry for the old pic)

this is what i have for home defense. it’s a storm in 9mm. when it’s in the room it has a standard 15rd magazine the runs flush with the grip. (extended is just for fucking around)

my girlfriend sleeps over a lot of nights. i have painted the cocking handle and safety a bright orange. she has shot the gun often and knows how do to f2f drills, and the bright orange will help in high stress situations IMO. the extended barrel of the carbine means greater accuracy than a pistol, and the extra size and weight of the carbine allows for much less recoil. a standard magazine has 15 rounds, more than double that of a 1911. while she does know how to reload, the idea is she shouldn’t have to.

all she’d have to do is get on the far end of the bed and prop it on the bed facing the bedroom door.

to many people watch movies and don’t realize how complicated it actually is to use a firearm properly

edit* forgot to add, hollowpoints are used, and the eotech is not. she just turns on the visible laser and points it at the door.[/quote]

The Storm carbine is nice and the mags feed into the Storm pistol as well. The problem we had with them is for LE running .40 the mags go no deeper then 12 (that we could find), whereas the XDm holds 16+1.

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[quote]SRT08 wrote:

As someone who does house/building clearing, I can tell you we don’t do it alone because you don’t ever know the exact layout of the place (even with “the plans”), and even if you have a rough floor plan, you don’t know where all the places are people are able to hide, let alone all the shooting angles. This is especially true in modern “open” floor plan buildings. In your own home, that advantage tips to you because you do know all those things. You have one variable do deal with, where your intruder is. It’s probably not the best idea for someone with zero training do attempt, but since when does anyone take to heart advice like this off the internet? As for the hesitation factor, refer back to HolyMac’s post… 3 or more is preferable regardless how good a shot you are. If you’re going to convince your local PD or SO you were in fear for your life, one between the eyes isn’t your best option. Go ahead and tag the guy 3 to 6 times and maybe put one or two into a wall for good measure to sell how scared you really were.

[/quote]

Why? “Fearing for you life” doesn’t imply that you are scared in incompetent in handling yourself… it simply means that you had reason to believe that your life was in danger. Under such circumstances, I see no reason to run a circus act of shots when you could instead accurately and quickly engage and eliminate the threat. It’s not illegal to be perfectly well trained, neither is it to be able to actually use such training in a dangerous circumstance.

However, I feel that the large post above yours was a bit over the top and somewhat paranoid; I still do not ever advocate owning a shotgun for simple home defense.

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[quote]Dreadnought_UG wrote:
SRT08 wrote:

As someone who does house/building clearing, I can tell you we don’t do it alone because you don’t ever know the exact layout of the place (even with “the plans”), and even if you have a rough floor plan, you don’t know where all the places are people are able to hide, let alone all the shooting angles. This is especially true in modern “open” floor plan buildings. In your own home, that advantage tips to you because you do know all those things. You have one variable do deal with, where your intruder is. It’s probably not the best idea for someone with zero training do attempt, but since when does anyone take to heart advice like this off the internet? As for the hesitation factor, refer back to HolyMac’s post… 3 or more is preferable regardless how good a shot you are. If you’re going to convince your local PD or SO you were in fear for your life, one between the eyes isn’t your best option. Go ahead and tag the guy 3 to 6 times and maybe put one or two into a wall for good measure to sell how scared you really were.

Why? “Fearing for you life” doesn’t imply that you are scared in incompetent in handling yourself… it simply means that you had reason to believe that your life was in danger. Under such circumstances, I see no reason to run a circus act of shots when you could instead accurately and quickly engage and eliminate the threat. It’s not illegal to be perfectly well trained, neither is it to be able to actually use such training in a dangerous circumstance.

However, I feel that the large post above yours was a bit over the top and somewhat paranoid; I still do not ever advocate owning a shotgun for simple home defense.
[/quote]

I’m just giving my perspective from the LE side. Yes, there are people who are great shots out there, but as HolyMac posted, in high stress (heart rate 140+) you begin to lose fine motor control, which most definitely brings you back to the “average” shooter range. IDPA has some great stuff in my area for simulating this as do some of the other instructional programs mentioned, but that brings me back to my point about the majority of people not taking this advice to heart. It is illegal to just execute someone who happens to be in your home depending on where you live. You have to supply valid reason for fearing for your life. In most states you can’t just pop someone and think you’ll be covered. That was the case here in Ohio until last year, when the burden of proof was taken off the homeowner, essentially making the CCW and home defense laws what everyone THOUGHT they had been for years previous. I guess the short version is read up on your states law(the actual document) and make sure the action you plan on taking is legal.

67

[quote]SRT08 wrote:
It is illegal to just execute someone who happens to be in your home depending on where you live. You have to supply valid reason for fearing for your life. In most states you can’t just pop someone and think you’ll be covered. That was the case here in Ohio until last year, when the burden of proof was taken off the homeowner, essentially making the CCW and home defense laws what everyone THOUGHT they had been for years previous. I guess the short version is read up on your states law(the actual document) and make sure the action you plan on taking is legal.
[/quote]

Well, at least it’s still legal to let yourself get killed and your wife and kids raped and murdered.

68

[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

This is the advantage of buckshot, IMO. Compare the weights of the lead in 1 round of buckshot with the equivalent amount of lead from pistol rounds. 1 round of buckshot = 2-3 rounds of 9mm. Hopefully, more than 1 round will be unnecessary. You can hit a lot of pumps and valves with 1 round of buckshot.

but you’re not addressing my point. most of our wives/gfs/whatever do not shoot guns often. and especially during high stress situations, you see a breakdown of fine motor skills. this will most likely cause the operator of the firearm to shift focus from the target now to the operation/reloading of the firearm.

whereas if you were shooting my sexy little storm, all you have to worry about is keeping that little red dot on him and pulling the trigger again. you’re not even looking through optics or sights or whatever.
[/quote]
It’s a good little weapon. I’m not really arguing with that. My main beef is with people who suggest pistol as primary. Like you said, fine motor control goes out the window. A shotgun is an extremely simple system. That Storm is good, though, with that optic. If you don’t keep one in the chamber (as I hope you don’t), she’ll still have to run the action once. There’s probably a quick-and-dirty way to tamper with the sear and make it fully auto. I suppose if the magazine on that is reliable, it’s just as good.

Take a tactical shotgun class and see if you still think that way when you’re done.

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[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

whereas if you were shooting my sexy little storm, all you have to worry about is keeping that little red dot on him and pulling the trigger again. you’re not even looking through optics or sights or whatever.

i feel a shotgun at that point really isn’t what you would want.

[/quote]

Sigh Get a Saiga with a red dot sight. Don’t have to pump and the red dot does all the work for you =p

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

He could try shooting you through the wall, but pistol rounds will slow way down through 2 layers of drywall. Plaster will probably stop them.
[/quote]

Don’t bet your life on it. Anything less than several inches of brick, stone, metal, other solids, etc. is classified as concealment not cover. Go take a look at http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

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[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
HolyMacaroni wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

whereas if you were shooting my sexy little storm, all you have to worry about is keeping that little red dot on him and pulling the trigger again. you’re not even looking through optics or sights or whatever.

i feel a shotgun at that point really isn’t what you would want.

Sigh Get a Saiga with a red dot sight. Don’t have to pump and the red dot does all the work for you =p

[/quote]

^ Maybe we could do a T-Nation group buy of those. Anyone know a Russian looking to sell a pallet of those?

If we could just get the parts kit we could dremel out the receiver.

71

[quote]SRT08 wrote:

The Storm carbine is nice and the mags feed into the Storm pistol as well. The problem we had with them is for LE running .40 the mags go no deeper then 12 (that we could find), whereas the XDm holds 16+1.[/quote]

it depends on what pistol base the storm is running off of. i’ve had no problems with the 30rd mags for the baretta92. best bet would be rangerjoes or gasp cheaperthandirt.com

are you using the px4 version? i know they make 14rd mags for it http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG1493-36.html

is .40 mandatory? as long as you make approprite ammo selection, IMO 9mm oculd be a decent round.

72

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

If you don’t keep one in the chamber (as I hope you don’t), she’ll still have to run the action once. [/quote]

as i said earlier, i painted the cocking handle and safety a bright orange. just waking up and freaking out she can spot it and remember you have to cock it once.

why do you hope there is not one in the chamber?

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Take a tactical shotgun class and see if you still think that way when you’re done.

[/quote]

i’m not arguing that a shotgun is not a great weapon. i personally think a shotgun rocks. but there is a difference between a military officer in a combat arms branch flying up to take a blackwater tactical shotgun class…and then someone’s wife having to use a shotgun in a defensive situation.

73

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
JPCleary wrote:
HolyMacaroni wrote:
StevenF wrote:
My first gun was an XD45 service model. I am somewhat of a beginner shooter and I swear for the life of me I could not hit shit at 10 yards with that thing. Then I sold it and bought a kimber custom II and my 10 yard shots are much more accurate on average. Maybe I just suck at shooting but I really like the heavier weight when shooting a .45. Smaller calibers such as .40 and 9mm are better suited for those polymer frame pistols IMHO.

honestly, i think a lot of people that go out and buy guns and shoot them recreationally never get formal training on how to shoot it from different positions and have inherent faults with their shooting technique resulting in poor groupings.

spending some time with people who know what they are talking about can make HUGE differences.

and that doesn’t mean everyone who’s a cop or in the army knows what the hell they are doing when it comes to guns. i’m talking about people who shoot guns A LOT.

Yeah…I was gonna make this same point. There is a Jeff Cooper quote that firearms instructors love that is relevant…

“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”
~Jeff Cooper

So many people buy a gun for home defense, or worse CCW, and then never take the time to get training…figuring the gun will do the trick should they ever need it.

When purchasing a gun, the cost for initial training should be figured in. Check out Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Rogers Shooting School, Blackwater, etc. And then after that, join a local gun club that participates in IDPA…International Defensive Pistol Association. These are perishable skills…you have to get trained and keep training. And on that note…another quote…

“Every time I teach a class, I discover I don’t know something.”
~Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

What you and others are saying is true (about learning and practicing) but every time I read one of these threads it invokes visions of city boys who after watching Die Hard or The Matrix one too many times and after a years subscription to Urban Warfare and Assault magazine run out and buy the latest and greatest glock pistol or 223 assault rifle. Then buy a couple of boxes of ammo go to the $10.00 admission city gun range shoot at 25 yards maybe 50 spraying a man silhouette a few times and then in their minds are qualified experts for dispensing their ‘hard earned’ wisdom on firearms and how to kill. Mentally masturbating about the day a big bad wolf is going to break into their home or the zombie apocalypse will happen and they will shoot their way to hero-dom. As their glorious killing tool gathers dust under the bed after twenty or forty rounds max went thru it.

I admit I say this as a bit of a snob and as a purist when it comes to the shooting art. I grew up as many small town boys do shooting guns at a young age. Killing rabbits with a pellet gun at age five, then a 22 single shot at age seven, and shotgun at ten. By twelve I was shooting centerfire rifles and by fourteen hunting and taking big game. I hunted small game with a 22 pistol since a young teen and now approaching forty have taken enough rabbits to feed a small army with a pistol taking many at fifty yards regularly, with a Ruger MKII or Ruger Single Six 22 pistols. I’ve hunted and taken game with a 357 Magnum and shot and qualified expert in the military with a 45 besides shooting various other pistol calibers. I hunt muzzleloader, centerfire rifle, pistol, and have taken game animals from point blank range out beyond three hundred yards with scopes and iron sights.

My point being I shoot, I love to shoot, I study ballistics, bullet performance and selection and terminal ballistics, I am either shooting at targets or shooting in hunting conditions often every few weeks pretty much. Now, I gotta say this has made me a pretty decent shooter within my frame of shooting situations 25 to a 100 yards with pistol and 25 to 300 plus yards with a scoped rifle. I’m not a long range shooter 500 to 1000 yard shooting because to become proficient in that art requires more free time and money then I currently posses.

Again, the reason I say this is because there is so much more when it comes to being a highly skilled and proficient shooter then reading about the latest whiz bang high capacity auto pistol dressing up like a reserve member of your local SWAT team and popping a few rounds off at the local city 25 yard shooting range after other twenty something apt. dwellers on a forum gave you the breakdown on all the cool features that would make you the best home defense apocalypse warrior on your block.

A weapon, any weapon whether a single shot 22 rifle, a 20ga shotgun, a 38 revolver, or the new XD 1000 Supa Illuminatti 9mm by 223 by 10 ga shotgun street sweeper room blaster grenade launcher, is better to have if in the one in a million chance happens and some crackhead loser is breaking into your home. The only time you may actually need the XD 1000 Supa Illuminatti is if those savage killers who took out Al Pacino in Scarface decide you’re next on their Christmas list.

And if you can’t hit a person in a vital kill zone head, heart/lungs at a bedrooms length with any of the weapons above you’d be better served putting rocks on your nightstand and throwing them at the zombie killer because you’d have a better chance of protecting yourself with those. If I couldn’t sink at least 5 rounds into the head neck upper chest region of a person with ill intent with my 22 pistol at a rooms length I’d be better off putting the barrel to my own head and squeezing of a round.

That’s all.

D[/quote]

Hmmmmmm…I’m not sure if this was some how supposed to be related to my post. I think it probably really wasn’t, and was just a continuation of the conversation that can be summed up as saying you grew up in a small town, been shooting all your life, and get irritated with city boys who buy the latest tacti-cool weapon, fire it once and never touch it again.

Well…I hear ya.

74

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
StevenF wrote:
My first gun was an XD45 service model. I am somewhat of a beginner shooter and I swear for the life of me I could not hit shit at 10 yards with that thing. Then I sold it and bought a kimber custom II and my 10 yard shots are much more accurate on average. Maybe I just suck at shooting but I really like the heavier weight when shooting a .45. Smaller calibers such as .40 and 9mm are better suited for those polymer frame pistols IMHO.

Agreed. The metal frame just makes the balance that much better in .45.

Anyone have any recommendations for inside-the-waist holsters for 1911s?

Also, mags. I’m going to need a bunch of mags. [/quote]

I agree with Rev…Rob at Tucker Gun Leather is awesome. Great customer service…always returns my emails quick. Tucker was the first to do the tuckable hybrid leather/Kydex holster…before Crossbreed and Comp-Tac. But he has a great option for these that I haven’t seen anywhere else…he can leather line the Kydex on those holsters for those that don’t like the finish wear that Kydex can give your pistol.

I like Wilson and Kimber mags. Check out The Armory for Kimber mags…always good prices.

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page64.html

75

[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
Dedicated wrote:

What you and others are saying is true (about learning and practicing) but every time I read one of these threads it invokes visions of city boys who after watching Die Hard or The Matrix one too many times and after a years subscription to Urban Warfare and Assault magazine run out and buy the latest and greatest glock pistol or 223 assault rifle…

of course! jpcleary and i used to dress up in camo and play paintball once a month (but we switched to airsoft because paintball hurt to much).
[/quote]

Yeah…hurt too much because Mac kept aiming for me nuts…bastard.

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[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
Dedicated wrote:

Too bad you took my post personally as it wasn’t intended towards you. Need a tissue? Ha, just kidding mac woot woot!

D

hahahaha.

sry man, you quoted my boy jpcleary who if i’m not mistaken was prior military and is now a civ-contractor in the middle east.
[/quote]

And I got 10 days and a wake up…and then I’m out this bitch!

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[quote]JPCleary wrote:

And I got 10 days and a wake up…and then I’m out this bitch!

[/quote]

yeah well to go sellout.

you know xmas is coming up. was thikning instead of a motorcycle you could just buy me a gun and we’d call it even.

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[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
JPCleary wrote:

And I got 10 days and a wake up…and then I’m out this bitch!

yeah well to go sellout.

you know xmas is coming up. was thikning instead of a motorcycle you could just buy me a gun and we’d call it even.[/quote]

Well that’s good, because the bikes I was looking at for you were damn expensive, even with the AAFES discount…and you know I got this bad ass garage gym I’m building that’s eating up all my dough.

So thanks for letting me off the hook…a gun it is.

79

[quote]
Hmmmmmm…I’m not sure if this was some how supposed to be related to my post. I think it probably really wasn’t, and was just a continuation of the conversation that can be summed up as saying you grew up in a small town, been shooting all your life, and get irritated with city boys who buy the latest tacti-cool weapon, fire it once and never touch it again.

Well…I hear ya.[/quote]

Hey guy, precisely. No disrespect intended your way. I guess just venting a little frustration. Everytime I see one of these gun threads, I being a gun nut myself, hope for something beyond the norm with a little substance in regard to the art of shooting and it’s application in terms of actual accuracy on the range or performance in the field as in hunting. Just always seems to end up being (not the qualified round here) a bunch of suburban cowboys recommending the sexiest piece for killing bad guys that break into your home. Gets a little boring. But, alas who the hell am I to complain.

Take care!

D

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Before I decided upon my Glock 23 in 40 cal for carrying concealed I went to the range and shot the shit out of nearly every auto pistol and caliber they had. While shooting at the range the only pistol I rented that jammed was a Sig239 and i think it was a 9mm. HKs are cool but just have weird manipulation - the mag drop is very awkward for me and so is the de-cocker on the back of the gun.

I have an older Glock 21 and I’ve got big hands and you’ve gotta have some big-ass hands to fit around that gun. Even the new G21SF is still big, but better than the old one. My G21 holds 15 in the extended mags + 1 in the chamber.

Got a Sig P226 from West Germany in 9mm and that fucker feels amazing in my hands but is a little too big for carrying.

As for shotguns can’t go wrong with Remington in 12ga.

As with any other purchase - DON’T BUY GARBAGE and DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Go over to ar15.com and spend a few days there.

for ammo - just found some DAMN good prices here - ammunitiontogo.com