[quote]conner wrote:
Just because I do not respect someone doesn’t mean that I would actively go out of my way to show it. Just because I do not respect someone doesn’t mean I would treat them like shit, either.
It doesn’t mean I don’t like them, it doesn’t mean that I maybe wouldn’t admire them in some ways, but I DO think that whether or not a person gives a shit about their health is an indicator of whether or not I should waste my time giving a shit about them.[/quote]
Yes.
Good post.
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
Capped, I have no sympathy for fat people who whine about it, and I agree with you about not judging fat people only on their fatness.
But c’mon!
Choosing to not look snazzy at the gym is not disrespecting yourself.
Working minimum wage is not necessarily disrespecting yourself.
Being black is not the same as being fat!
Damn son, put some thought into your analogies.[/quote]
The analogy about clothes was if I saw that person outside of the gym and assumed it was simply what they wear. The point was to show that there are many ways someone could decide that someone else “doesnt respect themselves”. And that none of those reasons are justifiable to disrespect someone else. Thats all.
I never said fat = black. I said discrimination and bigotry = discrimination and bigotry. Yes, fatism is comparable to racism, just like sexism is comparable to classism, just like homophobia is comparable to antisemitism/religious intolerance, and ageism and looksism and nationalism… and any way you want to compare bigotry to bigotry.
Comparing classism to homophobia does not mean poor people are gay or gay people are poor. Comparing sexism with antisemitism does not men all women are jewish or all jewish people are women.
So yes, its fair, on the basis that I’m talking about forms of discrimination and bigotry, that I compare “fatism” with racism.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
But as far as discriminating against a group that its still “ok” to be bigoted towards? Such as gays or the overweight? Well shit, its a big problem if anybody speaks up in their defense. You must have “hit a nerve”.[/quote]
Don’t be putting overweight people up there with gays and blacks for discrimination.
Obesity (99.999% of cases) is a lifestyle choice. You’re not born with it. Not only that but obesity is very unhealthy and is an indicator of how you treat yourself and take care of your own body. Being of another skin color or sexual orientation is not.
[sarcasm]
Maybe we should start comparing morbidly obese people with the persecution of the Jews? After all, they are being discriminated against… like the Jews were.
Its a valid comparison. Isn’t it?
[/sarcasm]
[quote]James Kiely wrote:
Obesity, diabetes all the “lifestyle diseases”, = natural selection of the weak minded[/quote]
Diabetes is common in Obese people… but some just get diabetes anyway.
Some regular people are just prone to it, sometimes genetically. Without being morbidly obese.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I suppose I shouldnt compare a toaster to a radio (small electrical household appliances) because a toaster doesnt play music and a radio cant heat up bread.
Generally, no. When you understand why, you will be ready to start using analogies again. Until then, avoid them.[/quote]
Scene: Park bench
Characters: CLaw, Forrest Gump
Gump: My momma always said, life is like a box of chocolates, ya-
CLaw: Thats so stupid, does life melt when its left out in the sun? Is a box of chocolates supposed to last for 75 years? Would a doctor operate on a box of chocolates? Does life come from a factory? Are chocolates even alive?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Yes, fatism is comparable to racism, just like sexism is comparable to classism, just like homophobia is comparable to antisemitism/religious intolerance, and ageism and looksism and nationalism…[/quote]
Can’t compare those.
Sexism is not the same are antisemitism. Neither is fatism comparable to racism.
Maybe they each contain bigotry, but its NOT THE SAME THING!
If I was a black, gay, Jewish woman and I read some stupid shit you wrote like this… I would slap your ass silly.
[quote]unbending wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
But as far as discriminating against a group that its still “ok” to be bigoted towards? Such as gays or the overweight? Well shit, its a big problem if anybody speaks up in their defense. You must have “hit a nerve”.
Don’t be putting overweight people up there with gays and blacks for discrimination.
Obesity (99.999% of cases) is a lifestyle choice. You’re not born with it. Not only that but obesity is very unhealthy and is an indicator of how you treat yourself and take care of your own body. Being of another skin color or sexual orientation is not.
[sarcasm]
Maybe we should start comparing morbidly obese people with the persecution of the Jews? After all, they are being discriminated against… like the Jews were.
Its a valid comparison. Isn’t it?
[/sarcasm][/quote]
I dont think its an invalid comparison, if its only on the basis that both groups are/were discriminated against.
It would be invalid to say that the obese have dealt with the same severity of discrimination and persecution as Jews.
[quote]Zen warrior wrote:
Fonebone wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
MB:
It’s called NAFFA:
Mufasa
Note to self: Do NOT fly into Chicago on July 10 (or at least make sure I have an aisle seat…).
Yah, riiiight. So every roll of fat that sticks out can brush/bump you on the way as a fatass passes by.
Clever…
[/quote]
Dammit, dammit, DAMMIT! I can’t win. OK, I’ll just stay home.
[quote]unbending wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Yes, fatism is comparable to racism, just like sexism is comparable to classism, just like homophobia is comparable to antisemitism/religious intolerance, and ageism and looksism and nationalism…
Can’t compare those.
Sexism is not the same are antisemitism. Neither is fatism comparable to racism.
Maybe they each contain bigotry, but its NOT THE SAME THING!
If I was a black, gay, Jewish woman and I read some stupid shit you wrote like this… I would slap your ass silly.[/quote]
LOL. He never said they were the same thing. He said they have the common factor of bigotry and that the similarity begins and ends there. Kind of like…exactly what you just wrote, albeit without that garbage in your last paragraph.
Of course the diet plays an integral role, but for the most part people just don’t move around like they used to nor do they exercise workout.
I’ve been at the same gym for the past 2 years, and for those 2 years I’ve seen the SAME people in there day in and day out.
Guess whose in better shape?
Capped, an analogy is a tool to explain a point. It’s not a substitute for reasoning or logic. If you could just compare discrimination against black people to discrimination against X people for any X and conclude that discrimination against X people was wrong, you could also conclude that discrimination against murderers was wrong.
People are pointing out where your analogy is not working. Being black is not a health risk, does not decrease one’s fitness, is not repulsive, and even if it were those things, there isn’t anything black people could do about it. This is a very different situation from obesity.
If you think you’re correct despite these differences, you’re going to have to EXPLAIN why. Just insisting “But I made an analogy!” gets you nowhere.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
It would be invalid to say that the obese have dealt with the same severity of discrimination and persecution as Jews. [/quote]
Exactly.
However, it would be MOST valid to compare obese with smokers, alcoholics, chronic gamblers, tweekers… etc.
Those are all bad lifestyle choices.
[quote]Mr. Clean & Jerk wrote:
unbending wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Yes, fatism is comparable to racism, just like sexism is comparable to classism, just like homophobia is comparable to antisemitism/religious intolerance, and ageism and looksism and nationalism…
Can’t compare those.
Sexism is not the same are antisemitism. Neither is fatism comparable to racism.
Maybe they each contain bigotry, but its NOT THE SAME THING!
If I was a black, gay, Jewish woman and I read some stupid shit you wrote like this… I would slap your ass silly.
LOL. He never said they were the same thing. He said they have the common factor of bigotry and that the similarity begins and ends there. Kind of like…exactly what you just wrote, albeit without that garbage in your last paragraph.[/quote]
Wow. Thank you. Someone, finally, gets it.
[quote]Mike Benfield wrote:
Capped, an analogy is a tool to explain a point.
{/quote]
Yes. Point: Bigotry = bad. Bigotry against fat people = bad. The same way bigotry against black people = bad. Same way bigotry against gay people = bad.
Are you beginning to see the analogy yet? The common thread??
Bigotry… = … bad.
Why is that so shamelessly hard to fucking grasp??
You sound like the idiots who say “If a man can love a man, why cant a man love a 9 year old girl??”
No, punishing criminals is not discrimination. Terrible, terrible strawman.
Yes, there are differences. Your point seems to be that bigotry against obese people is justifiable. I disagree, I think all forms of bigotry are equally unjustifiable; even if they COULD lose weight or they COULD get a better job or they COULD stop acting gay and get a girlfriend…
[quote]
If you think you’re correct despite these differences, you’re going to have to EXPLAIN why. Just insisting “But I made an analogy!” gets you nowhere. [/quote]
I’m correct because… get this…
listen
close attention now
ready?
Bigotry = bad.
Shocking, huh?
Even if you can explain why your bigotry is completely rational (“Black people make a choice to join a gang and rob houses and be on welfare”/“Gays spread disease and destroy the traditional family”/“Foreigners just come here to steal our jobs and send the money home and get free health care for their children off of MY taxes”/“Fat people could lose the weight, they smell bad and look disgusting”/need I continue?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
Capped, I have no sympathy for fat people who whine about it, and I agree with you about not judging fat people only on their fatness.
But c’mon!
Choosing to not look snazzy at the gym is not disrespecting yourself.
Working minimum wage is not necessarily disrespecting yourself.
Being black is not the same as being fat!
Damn son, put some thought into your analogies.
The analogy about clothes was if I saw that person outside of the gym and assumed it was simply what they wear. The point was to show that there are many ways someone could decide that someone else “doesnt respect themselves”. And that none of those reasons are justifiable to disrespect someone else. Thats all.
I never said fat = black. I said discrimination and bigotry = discrimination and bigotry. Yes, fatism is comparable to racism, just like sexism is comparable to classism, just like homophobia is comparable to antisemitism/religious intolerance, and ageism and looksism and nationalism… and any way you want to compare bigotry to bigotry.
Comparing classism to homophobia does not mean poor people are gay or gay people are poor. Comparing sexism with antisemitism does not men all women are jewish or all jewish people are women.
So yes, its fair, on the basis that I’m talking about forms of discrimination and bigotry, that I compare “fatism” with racism.
[/quote]
I think you are still missing the point. No one chooses to be a particular race, and no race is genetically inferior. Obesity IS something almost all people can prevent. There is nothing good about it. And it should be treated with derision. I do not respect the fact that someone allows themselves to be obese.
If you are saying that they can still be good people and have other admirable qualities, that is true. It really is no different than drug use or other self-destructive behavior. That ASPECT of a personal should not be treated with respect.
Is bigotry against drug abusers bad? is bigotry against rapists or child molesters bad?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Mike Benfield wrote:
Capped, an analogy is a tool to explain a point.
{/quote]
Yes. Point: Bigotry = bad. Bigotry against fat people = bad. The same way bigotry against black people = bad. Same way bigotry against gay people = bad.
Are you beginning to see the analogy yet? The common thread??
Bigotry… = … bad.
Why is that so shamelessly hard to fucking grasp??
It’s not a substitute for reasoning or logic. If you could just compare discrimination against black people to discrimination against X people for any X and conclude that discrimination against X people was wrong, you could also conclude that discrimination against murderers was wrong.
You sound like the idiots who say “If a man can love a man, why cant a man love a 9 year old girl??”
No, punishing criminals is not discrimination. Terrible, terrible strawman.
People are pointing out where your analogy is not working. Being black is not a health risk, does not decrease one’s fitness, is not repulsive, and even if it were those things, there isn’t anything black people could do about it. This is a very different situation from obesity.
Yes, there are differences. Your point seems to be that bigotry against obese people is justifiable. I disagree, I think all forms of bigotry are equally unjustifiable; even if they COULD lose weight or they COULD get a better job or they COULD stop acting gay and get a girlfriend…
If you think you’re correct despite these differences, you’re going to have to EXPLAIN why. Just insisting “But I made an analogy!” gets you nowhere.
I’m correct because… get this…
listen
close attention now
ready?
Bigotry = bad.
Shocking, huh?
Even if you can explain why your bigotry is completely rational (“Black people make a choice to join a gang and rob houses and be on welfare”/“Gays spread disease and destroy the traditional family”/“Foreigners just come here to steal our jobs and send the money home and get free health care for their children off of MY taxes”/“Fat people could lose the weight, they smell bad and look disgusting”/need I continue?
[/quote]
Um, yeah, you should probably continue if you want to make a valid point you probably should. I would not say it’s bad to be ‘bigoted’ against people who join gangs and rob houses. This is a problem in the black community. But do all black people join gangs and rob houses? No, not by any means.
I would not say it’s bad to be ‘bigoted’ against people who practice unsafe sex and selfishly spread disease. Is this something a greater percentage of gay people do? Maybe. Is it something that all gay people do. Not by an means. All fat people are FAT, with all that entails. And almost all of them allow themselves to be this way.
Everyone shut up and read this.
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=921925
And for the record. . . I AM ANTIFAT!
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Um, yeah, you should probably continue if you want to make a valid point you probably should. I would not say it’s bad to be ‘bigoted’ against people who join gangs and rob houses. This is a problem in the black community. But do all black people join gangs and rob houses? No, not by any means.
I would not say it’s bad to be ‘bigoted’ against people who practice unsafe sex and selfishly spread disease. Is this something a greater percentage of gay people do? Maybe. Is it something that all gay people do. Not by an means. All fat people are FAT, with all that entails. And almost all of them allow themselves to be this way. [/quote]
Look.
My point is this:
Fat people deserve to be treated with as much respect as people who aren’t fat.
Thats all.
Do you disagree with that statement?
[quote]Brant_Drake wrote:
Everyone shut up and read this.
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=921925
And for the record. . . I AM ANTIFAT![/quote]
Being antifat is great.
Advocating that people exercise and eat right is awesome.
However, being a prick to someone, or thinking you have the right to be a prick to someone, because that person is fat… makes you a bigot and a prick. (I dont mean you, I mean the kind of person who “doesnt care if they are the smartest person in the world, if they are fat they wont listen”)
I think everyone should be antifat. They should want to help and educate those who are obese so they can stop rationalizing and start making improvements. Not look to put people down because “I’m better than them since I’m not fat!”