[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[/quote]
Who’s the one with the strawman here, huh?
Go join a debating club or something.
Debra got what I meant…
[/quote]
I’m not knocking down strawmen, I’m pointing out the reality that your post ignores.
Listen, and this goes back to the 459x15 incline press thread also, world record holders (in reasonably well established sports) are statistical outliers. Ones that break world records held by pharmaceutically enhanced athletes while themselves being natural are even more so. It’s totally absurd to think that just about anyone could bench 715 raw
[/quote] Why on earth are you bringing this into the discussion? Who said ANYTHING like that?
[quote]
(or 300+ raw as a woman) without drugs
[/quote] Where did I even mention drug use or lack thereof? You either completely misinterpreted what I was saying or your just want to argue about different topics. [quote] and just “more hard work”. Even the OLD world records from 20-30 years ago represent a very high level of strength that is more than several standard deviations from the norm.
Case in point, in 1982, Dan Wohleber became the first man to pull 900, with a 904 lb pull at 268 lbs. In the 29 years since, EIGHT men have bested that feat and only one of them (KK- who uses a “random over specialized PL routine” [/quote] Way to take that comment out of context. And that’s despite admitting you don’t even know what I meant by it. [quote] ) weighed close to what Wohleber did at the time of that lift. Nearly all of the others have been 308’s or SHW’s. Three other men came close (Coan, Fought, Henry), but two off them were 308/SHW and Ed Coan, who did it at 220, is considered to be the greatest powerlifter who ever lived. If someone tries to argue that such feats are commonly attainable because Coan did it at 220, then there’s really no hope for this discussion because that person most likely requires shoes with velcro and a helmet.
[/quote] No one is trying to argue that, or at least I’m not, so I still wonder why you are bringing this up. [quote]
The 900 lb deadlift example is definitely equivalent to a woman benching 300 lbs raw, as only 13 women have managed to accomplish that feat in competition since the first time it was done in 1981.
[/quote] At this point I could repost what you originally quoted from me, but I guess you’re going to miss what I mean again. [quote]
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/records/300-pound-raw-bench-press
I know women on that list in real life. They are incredibly strong people, but what they actually had to go through in order to accomplish a 300 lb raw press makes your “work hard and eat more” schpiel look like a JOKE.
Look, I’m not saying that there are a great number of women who could be far bigger and stronger than the average female lifter if they put their minds to it. [/quote] I think you forgot a word in there somewhere. [quote] I think that there are many many women who have the potential to be as muscular and strong as (for example) Veggie and CBear [/quote] I do think veggie has way above average genetics for this. I will leave it at that however. Too easy to accidentally insult someone. [quote] , IF they were willing to put in the work to get there. But, to try to claim that accomplishment on the very brink of the limits of human performance is attainable by everyone without the use of drugs, if only they would work harder, requires some serious delusion.
[/quote] Your strawman again… That last sentence was completely unnecessary. [quote]
What I think is very likely, is that Aneta has a very high resistance to virilization (via genetic factors) that have allowed her to use on a high enough scale that her body can tolerate the type of training and abuse that is really required to reach the world class level. It doesn’t take much at all for virilization to occur in women. For many, irreversible consequences are seen at dosages as low as 10mg/day. If she is able, via whatever fluke of physiology, to tolerate dosages that move her much closer to a natural male in terms of blood levels, then it is less surprising that she is moving as much weight as she is while still maintaining her femininity.
[/quote] Ah, so she has been juicing heavily for 13 years with no physical signs in evidence. Hey whatever, gear is probably one area where you actually do know more than I do. Or at least I hope so. [quote]
I know the argument is coming, because this is always how these threads end up…
[/quote] Then don’t bring it up in response to me if it isn’t even what I discussed.
What is the point of this?
And what is the point of comparing someone who has been training all of 4 years with a hap-hazard diet (…) and from what I can tell (sorry…) rather average genetics to someone like Aneta who has been doing this for longer than I have? She did heavy farm work her entire life before she started training at age 16 or so, under guidance from the start most likely. She is 29 now.
I’ll just mention this again as you seem to have missed it the first time for some reason: I am not saying that she does not have above average genetics to boot.
Furthermore… Why drag the whole 500x15 incline thing in here?
Did I ever say I even half-way believed the claim that someone could do about 8 or 9 more reps with that weight, regardless of technique/form used, than the strongest incline benchers I know of/have seen?
Who the hell cares about drugs in that case, the whole premise is ridiculous in the first place! Is there even anyone doing that on the flat bench? (I know of no one, so here you can demonstrate your superior intelligence and tell me. And then you can stop with the patronizing crap. No one with even an inkling of what is being put up in gyms and competition around the world believed that claim.)
I did not share my opinion on that issue on the boards back then because I did not want to get dragged into yet another argument, but here we go…
