[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
But to answer your question as to what we as a society should do: Regulation is fine. Criminalization is not. [/quote]
Best post on this thread.
And? Making it illegal has done nothing to help these people, or society as a whole. Making it legal saves tax dollars and government resources that would have been wasted in punishing people who only hurt themselves. Not having a criminal record makes it easier for a former junkie to get a job if and when they ever decide to clean up their life.
[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
Have you every been around a true heroin junkie? Heroin is cheaper than a pack of smokes in Australia and every one of those pathetic cunts I see on the street is down and out for one reason. They have an addiction that has consumed their entire life. Making it legal, does nothing. It means that they don’t get a criminal record if caught using or dealing. You’re still going to have all the homeless people that would rather spend all their money on their habbit than rent, food and the essentials. Legalising will do nothing.[/quote]
De sleeplijn mate, I think you’re getting heroin mixed up with methadone. Heroin is not cheaper than a pack of smokes here - it costs $50 a hit.
Methadone is cheaper than a pack of smokes at $5 a hit at a pharmacy, and it is the government-legal opiate replacement “therapy” for junkies.
I know this because part of my job involves doing security work at a drug & alcohol rehab clinic, so yes I have seen true heroin junkies from first hand experience, and I see them all the time. The clinic hands out doses of methadone, buprenorphine and valium to the addicts registered on the program for free. This prevents them from having to spend all their money and energy seeking heroin. Incidentally, it probably also prevents them from robbing and stealing to support their habit, because heroin is not cheap.
The rationale behind this program is that it allows an addict to “stabilize” their life, get a job, and then eventually taper off the methadone. The reality is that it is just government- sponsored drug addiction. The methadone is actually HARDER to get off than heroin, and they become hopelessly hooked on the system to keep handing it out to them. Some of the people I have spoken to have been on the program for 30 YEARS. The nurses who treat the patients are just like cogs in the great big givernment machine - I have seen how desensitized they become to the suffering of addiction they see every day.
That’s the reason security is needed at the clinic - these people need methadone EVERY DAY or else they become extremely ill. They go crazy, break down emotionally or become violent when they are refused a dose. This stuff, like all opiate related drugs, is PHYSICALLY addictive.
What I’m saying is that government doesn’t always know what’s best when it comes to drugs, or what should be legal and what should not.
I don’t think the effects of legalization of methadone should be compared to legalization or deregulation of steroids in this case, because they are two entirely different drugs. Steroids are not physically addictive, users don’t need them every day, they do not cause death from overdose or consume a person’s entire life in the same way that methadone or heroin does. So I think your argument on this point is moot because it’s like comparing apples and oranges.
[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
De sleeplijn wrote:
Have you every been around a true heroin junkie? Heroin is cheaper than a pack of smokes in Australia and every one of those pathetic cunts I see on the street is down and out for one reason. They have an addiction that has consumed their entire life. Making it legal, does nothing. It means that they don’t get a criminal record if caught using or dealing. You’re still going to have all the homeless people that would rather spend all their money on their habbit than rent, food and the essentials. Legalising will do nothing.
They are down and out that’s for sure. No one is saying that a junkie doesn’t obviously have personal issues and no one is saying that legalizing these drugs will fix those people’s personal issues. Here’s the thing that legalization will do: it will help out the next generation of would-be junkies.
Everyone here grew up in an anti-drug culture. We’ve all been told how horrible these drugs were and that it was even possible to be addicted after one hit/line/shot. Well, a lot of us decided somewhere down the line to use a drug other than alcohol and guess what? We realized that everything we had been told about drugs was untrue! Well shit. Now I want to try out some other drugs because I like the effects, but I can’t find any reliable information on them (proper use, non-exaggerated warnings). Well maybe the dealer knows how to do it? Shit I guess I’ll just wing it. Hand me the belt.
In Amsterdam when you walk into a Smart Shop to buy mushrooms they have a rating system that tells you the relative strength of each strain and description of what the high is going to be like along with warnings. The staff is well informed and gives you instructions on what to do if the trip is getting to strong for you.
Yes I realize that mushroom junkies don’t exist and that those two drugs are apples to oranges, but think about each of those situations (because they are very real) and ask me which one sounds like the person in question is about to do something incorrectly.
I’ve been to Thailand at a Muay Thai camp and I’ve used the gear over there. It’s great. There are many that travel there specifically to do so for sport, bodybuilding or vanity. They all seem very well informed on the matter and most get by without any sides.
However there were a few idiots in my camp who thought it a good idea to go and get some Test and just take that for energy! They knew noting about it and had no problem just whacking it into their system. I’d hate to know how those guys are faring after their time using.
You’re saying there are stupid people everywhere?
Tell me why some people abusing a drug should keep me from using it correctly.
Hey guys some people spend money recklessly. Money is the problem. Lets criminalize it.
That’s seriously the rationale you are using.
Learning about AAS is complex for the common man and none of them have the discipline to do so. It should not be readily available to them.
There is not a big enough roll eyes emoticon on all the internet for this.
You can only give people information. You can’t make them do anything. It’s called free will.[/quote]
I must say, great post Dave.
Isn’t it obvious? We outlaw hot dogs.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
kroby wrote:
Ah, but when that idiot that does meth or whatever drug kills some unsuspecting by-stander waiting for a hot dog at the hot dog stand… because he looked like “the devil,” what do we as a society do?
Isn’t it obvious? We outlaw hot dogs.[/quote]
lmao!
(crowd chant) BAN-ALL-HOTDOGS! BAN-ALL-HOTDOGS!
Welcome back, X. I say illegalize smoking as well.
[quote]JohnnyBlaze wrote:
That’s the reason security is needed at the clinic - these people need methadone EVERY DAY or else they become extremely ill. They go crazy, break down emotionally or become violent when they are refused a dose. This stuff, like all opiate related drugs, is PHYSICALLY addictive.
[/quote]
Maybe you’re familiar enough with the system to explain with this wouldn’t work, but wouldn’t it make more sense for them to be getting progressively smaller doses of methadone so they can eventually taper off completely?
This topic needs more k’s in America. For example-
“Amerikkka”
Much better.
[quote]LUEshi wrote:
This topic needs more k’s in America. For example-
“Amerikkka”
Much better.[/quote]
A klansman on the T! Sweet! Was your granddaddy at the re-lighting up on Stone Mountain, GA ?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Sorry bud. All problems start and end in the US.
Uh…okay…
Move out of Alice Springs and back to NSW or Perth. Living alone in a shack out there is affecting your brain. Seriously.
[/quote]
I’m impressed a fellow American could quote 2 cities and state of Australia. Kudos.
[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
You’re saying there are stupid people everywhere?
Tell me why some people abusing a drug should keep me from using it correctly.
[/quote]
The truth is you probably don’t know how to use it correctly. Nobody does at this point in time or very few do. Perhaps some time and money needs to be spent researching it and working out if AAS should be allowed to be used by the common man. As I’ve said however, the Government is probably happy with the current levels of hate shown towards steroids and you are in the minority. So deal with the fact you won’t be getting your hands on any legal AAS in the USA. Fair? Maybe not, but stiff shit. That’s democracy; strength in numbers. If you don’t like it, move to Mexico or Thailand where the Government says it’s okay for you to use it.
No that’s not the rationale I am using. We are talking about a substance that people DO NOT KNOW what it does to them long term. Not enough study has been done on it and it is well down the scale of all illegal substances. It’s not a problem in society compared to Heroin and Ice so the current status of Steroids can stay as they are. Any politician looking to deregulate it now thanks to baseball would look very ordinary. It is hate mongering and probably unjust attention, but stiff shit. The masses have spoken.
Even watching family guy last night and Peter had flash backs to when he was on steroids. He cracks the shits and smacks Lois out. It’s completely untrue but that’s what people think of steroids. You can do all the campaigning you want but they’ve been put in the same category as the bad drugs. I hope you’ve got a good source for getting them on the black market. Nothing will change. In fact, thanks to the current baseball beat up of Steroids, you might even find things tighten up.
[quote]
You can only give people information. You can’t make them do anything. It’s called free will.[/quote]
Yeah we know that. But you are yet to produce 1 good reason why AAS should be deregulated. All you’ve said is “What right does a government have to tell me what I can and can’t do?” Which is a strange statement as the role of a government is to govern.
[quote]JohnnyBlaze wrote:
De sleeplijn mate, I think you’re getting heroin mixed up with methadone. Heroin is not cheaper than a pack of smokes here - it costs $50 a hit.
[/quote]
Heroin is fucking cheaper than that in my neck of the woods.
[quote]
I know this because part of my job involves doing security work at a drug & alcohol rehab clinic, so yes I have seen true heroin junkies from first hand experience, and I see them all the time. The clinic hands out doses of methadone, buprenorphine and valium to the addicts registered on the program for free. This prevents them from having to spend all their money and energy seeking heroin. Incidentally, it probably also prevents them from robbing and stealing to support their habit, because heroin is not cheap.
The rationale behind this program is that it allows an addict to “stabilize” their life, get a job, and then eventually taper off the methadone. The reality is that it is just government- sponsored drug addiction. The methadone is actually HARDER to get off than heroin, and they become hopelessly hooked on the system to keep handing it out to them. Some of the people I have spoken to have been on the program for 30 YEARS. The nurses who treat the patients are just like cogs in the great big givernment machine - I have seen how desensitized they become to the suffering of addiction they see every day.
That’s the reason security is needed at the clinic - these people need methadone EVERY DAY or else they become extremely ill. They go crazy, break down emotionally or become violent when they are refused a dose. This stuff, like all opiate related drugs, is PHYSICALLY addictive.
What I’m saying is that government doesn’t always know what’s best when it comes to drugs, or what should be legal and what should not.
I don’t think the effects of legalization of methadone should be compared to legalization or deregulation of steroids in this case, because they are two entirely different drugs. Steroids are not physically addictive, users don’t need them every day, they do not cause death from overdose or consume a person’s entire life in the same way that methadone or heroin does. So I think your argument on this point is moot because it’s like comparing apples and oranges.[/quote]
I was just replying to one of the guys who thought we should allow all drugs to be legalised. Thankyou, you have backed me up perfectly.
[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
Everyone here grew up in an anti-drug culture. We’ve all been told how horrible these drugs were and that it was even possible to be addicted after one hit/line/shot. Well, a lot of us decided somewhere down the line to use a drug other than alcohol and guess what? We realized that everything we had been told about drugs was untrue! Well shit. Now I want to try out some other drugs because I like the effects, but I can’t find any reliable information on them (proper use, non-exaggerated warnings). Well maybe the dealer knows how to do it? Shit I guess I’ll just wing it. Hand me the belt.
[/quote]
That is exactly what happened.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
kroby wrote:
Ah, but when that idiot that does meth or whatever drug kills some unsuspecting by-stander waiting for a hot dog at the hot dog stand… because he looked like “the devil,” what do we as a society do?
Isn’t it obvious? We outlaw hot dogs.
[/quote]
LMAO!
[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:
De sleeplijn mate, I think you’re getting heroin mixed up with methadone. Heroin is not cheaper than a pack of smokes here - it costs $50 a hit.
Heroin is fucking cheaper than that in my neck of the woods.
[/quote] Isnt a pack of smokes in Australia like $8 AUD? In Nevada, a point of black tar goes for $25. Thats pretty cheap…$7 for a point(assuming its black tar). No wonder you guys got junkies.
[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
No that’s not the rationale I am using. We are talking about a substance that people DO NOT KNOW what it does to them long term. Not enough study has been done on it and it is well down the scale of all illegal substances. It’s not a problem in society compared to Heroin and Ice so the current status of Steroids can stay as they are. Any politician looking to deregulate it now thanks to baseball would look very ordinary. It is hate mongering and probably unjust attention, but stiff shit. The masses have spoken.
[/quote]
Well isn’t Heroin legal by prescription in U.K? So just because people do not know the long terms effects, and it’s illegal, we should keep it that way? You can not expect government studies to show you the truth, they have an agenda to make. They also have to justify the millions of dollars they use to “fight” the war on drugs.
I understand that fighting this battle will be very hard, but that is simply not a good enough reason to not fight it.
[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
Yeah we know that. But you are yet to produce 1 good reason why AAS should be deregulated. All you’ve said is “What right does a government have to tell me what I can and can’t do?” Which is a strange statement as the role of a government is to govern.
[/quote]
“That government is best which governs least.” And when Man is ready, that is the government they shall have.
From what I understand, if used properly(oh yes the great question, so what do you properly…) ones live span can be increased, happier, and more active people.
[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
It would be irresponsible of me to talk about being well informed and responsible and not give a source for information for anyone lurking in the background to read.
[/quote]
vouch I’ve checked out erowid before for safety issues.
[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:
De sleeplijn mate, I think you’re getting heroin mixed up with methadone. Heroin is not cheaper than a pack of smokes here - it costs $50 a hit.
Heroin is fucking cheaper than that in my neck of the woods.[/quote]
Bro, if heroin were that cheap, how would the dealers make any profit? A single tablet of oxycodone is worth $300 on the black market because it can be used for 20 hits. I think you’re talking about the oxycodone and other opiate-related drugs (either stolen, prescribed by ‘doctor shopping’, or diverted from the rehabilitation programs) which are cheaper than heroin and have similar effects. Real heroin cannot be cheaper than a pack of cigarettes unless you live in Vietnam or a country where it is produced.
How do you know the street prices of heroin anyway?
[quote]I know this because part of my job involves doing security work at a drug & alcohol rehab clinic, so yes I have seen true heroin junkies from first hand experience, and I see them all the time. The clinic hands out doses of methadone, buprenorphine and valium to the addicts registered on the program for free. This prevents them from having to spend all their money and energy seeking heroin. Incidentally, it probably also prevents them from robbing and stealing to support their habit, because heroin is not cheap.
The rationale behind this program is that it allows an addict to “stabilize” their life, get a job, and then eventually taper off the methadone. The reality is that it is just government- sponsored drug addiction. The methadone is actually HARDER to get off than heroin, and they become hopelessly hooked on the system to keep handing it out to them. Some of the people I have spoken to have been on the program for 30 YEARS. The nurses who treat the patients are just like cogs in the great big givernment machine - I have seen how desensitized they become to the suffering of addiction they see every day.
That’s the reason security is needed at the clinic - these people need methadone EVERY DAY or else they become extremely ill. They go crazy, break down emotionally or become violent when they are refused a dose. This stuff, like all opiate related drugs, is PHYSICALLY addictive.
What I’m saying is that government doesn’t always know what’s best when it comes to drugs, or what should be legal and what should not.
I don’t think the effects of legalization of methadone should be compared to legalization or deregulation of steroids in this case, because they are two entirely different drugs. Steroids are not physically addictive, users don’t need them every day, they do not cause death from overdose or consume a person’s entire life in the same way that methadone or heroin does. So I think your argument on this point is moot because it’s like comparing apples and oranges.
I was just replying to one of the guys who thought we should allow all drugs to be legalised. Thankyou, you have backed me up perfectly. [/quote]
I don’t know if I have backed you up - my point was that the legalized replacement for a particular drug is worse than the actual drug itself. Therefore the government solution is a failure. Big Daddy government has gotten it wrong in many cases and they are also wrong when it comes to steroids.
“Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.”
– Albert Einstein
[quote]JohnnyBlaze wrote:
How do you know the street prices of heroin anyway?
[/quote]
I was told by someone but it seems their info is wrong. Now is the time for everyone to jump on me about AAS. My knowledge of Heroin, Ice and the like is poor and I intend to keep it that way. I have no interest in it.
My knowledge of AAS is average but I have said before, it would be better than most of the posters on this forum. You think you know stuff, what you have read comes in the form of a biased opinions. Most of the people writing books on AAS are not going to tell all the facts that make it look bad. They sugar coat it and the average reader of these books wants to only hear the good stuff anyway.
Of course you backed me up. Dave was the one saying that all drugs should be legal. So re-read your statement, my posts and Dave’s posts and tell me who you backed up.
Well who’s going to change their mind or the publics. I’m a former user of AAS and have knowledge of their pros and cons. I am happy to admit they might actually be good for the human race IF we were to do some more study on them.
All of your problem is that I am much better informed on the issue than the average person and I am still not convinced that any of you have put forward 1 good reason to deregulate it. What chance have you got in pursuading the millions of people that think steroid “abuse” is wrong?
The answer is none. You’ve got no chance and you can bitch and moan all you want, but you’re never going to see a day where you can use AAS in the way you want.
The Great AAS Challenge
List some good reasons for me why the Government should deregulate AAS. Don’t just say, “The Government is wrong.” and “Why should they tell me what to do?”.
It’s been nine pages and you guys are yet to give me 1 decent reason. It’s starting to sound like a bunch of whinging teenage girls. I’ll start all you slow cunts off…
- It may improve quality of life.
- (Insert here)
[quote]SeanT wrote:
I understand that fighting this battle will be very hard, but that is simply not a good enough reason to not fight it.
[/quote]
The negative publicity at the moment is not good for your case. Mothers don’t want the thought of their children turning into the Incredible Hulk and the other myths associated with AAS. It’s a fight you will lose because our sportsman can’t take it, the masses hate it for ruining baseball and so on. The publicity is unjust, but people don’t want to be educated on it.
I think our Government does Govern least. We live a pretty free life in the western world and some of you have forgotten that. I don’t like the fact that I pay taxes, but I understand and accept that is the Government’s policy and I’ll deal with it.
Go back and live in the Vietnam era and then you might have something to whinge to the Government about.
Oh good. An actual response to my question. Thankyou very much SeanT. It only took nine pages for someone to make some sense. If they still had the T points I would be giving +1 for you.
[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
No that’s not the rationale I am using. We are talking about a substance that people DO NOT KNOW what it does to them long term. Not enough study has been done on it and it is well down the scale of all illegal substances. It’s not a problem in society compared to Heroin and Ice so the current status of Steroids can stay as they are. Any politician looking to deregulate it now thanks to baseball would look very ordinary. It is hate mongering and probably unjust attention, but stiff shit. The masses have spoken.
Even watching family guy last night and Peter had flash backs to when he was on steroids. He cracks the shits and smacks Lois out. It’s completely untrue but that’s what people think of steroids. You can do all the campaigning you want but they’ve been put in the same category as the bad drugs. I hope you’ve got a good source for getting them on the black market. Nothing will change. In fact, thanks to the current baseball beat up of Steroids, you might even find things tighten up.
You can only give people information. You can’t make them do anything. It’s called free will.
Yeah we know that. But you are yet to produce 1 good reason why AAS should be deregulated. All you’ve said is “What right does a government have to tell me what I can and can’t do?” Which is a strange statement as the role of a government is to govern.
[/quote]
Well first off, I know that people don’t understand the true nature of any drugs (I don’t fuck with steroids) which is unfortunate. That’s the problem I’m addressing here. These drugs being illegal exacerbate the ignorance because there is a lack of reliable information about the drugs. As a side note, everything I’ve said so far applies to prostitution as well. It should be very legal and very regulated.
Here’s the deal, you have a good who has some social value whether it be health reasons or recreation that the government is trying to reduce the supple of by criminalization. How do I know there is social value? The elasticity of demand for these goods is relatively inelastic. This means that for every 1% increase in price, there is less than a 1% decrease in demand for that good. The degree to which these goods are inelastic varies somewhat on the age of the population we’re speaking of. For teenagers, the demand is close to being unit elastic (for a 1% increase in price there’s a 1% decrease in demand) mostly because they are poor. It gets less elastic as the age and income of the individual goes up. So, by having these products illegal we are doing one good thing. We are having an affect on how much high schoolers are using drugs. Great, except that this can be done through plain ol’ regulation (think liquor - not that I support the drinking age).
Now, lets look at another subsect of the population who is also poor. Junkies. What do you think the elasticity of a junkie is? It’s damn near nothing. The demand a junkie has for his drug of choice is almost completely inelastic (for every 1% you increase the price of the good you will only decrease his demand by very small fractions of a percent). These people are, as has been noted, usually very poor (in large part due to spending all their money on drugs whose price is very inflated due to the war on drugs. i’ll have more on that), but remember, they have to have the drug. Well, they have to get money. There going to commit crimes to get money for the drug. This is very important point #1. By criminalizing the drug, we created a situation where these junkies must commit other crimes in order to sustain their habbit. In addition to these junkies being pulled into this seedy culture, you also pull teenagers, regular business men and women, etc., into the mix.
Well, what about the guys the “dealers?” These people are pulled into the drug business because of pronounced profits. For every resource spent on limiting supply of these goods, producers (the dealers) match it equally. So for every 100 million spent on reducing the supply of a good, there will be 100 million spent by producers to bring it to market. You might say, well where are the profits for these guys coming from? Of the 100 million spent by the producers, they maybe only spent 10 million to physically bring it to the market, but the price of the good is inflated because they are incorporating the risk of being caught into the price of the good. I risk my ass going to jail, you’re going to be paying more. The dealers who manage to not get caught make all that in profit.
So this far we’ve got two pretty stout reasons to legalize and regulate these goods.
- People whose demand for the good in question is inelastic will end up committing other crimes in order to get money for the good.
- There will always be someone willing to supply the goods in hopes of realizing a high profit margin.
Criminalization of drugs in general creates a very lucrative black market. The end result is that millions in resources are wasted to restrict the supply of goods that have a positive social value. The war on drugs is just a black hole for resources so to speak; for everyone from the government, to producers and consumers.
This kind of blind acceptance really rubs me the wrong way and in my opinion highlights fantastically exactly the kind mindset this thread was created to point out. I mean really, just because the majority of people agree you think it’s the right thing?
Slavery was a beautiful thing people. The majority agreed. Women have jobs? WTF damnit! And their not just cooks!? HOLY SHIT FUCK!
Drunk driving used to be much less socially acceptable until MADD changed the public opinion. You speak as if public opinion is an unwavering, unified entity. Public opinion will change. It always has. It’s people like me, and others everywhere, who try to challenge your misconceptions about what is right and wrong.
You have yet to give a solid reason that drugs should be illegal, other than saying that the majority (a misinformed majority at that) want it to be so and that it’s government’s job to govern no matter how inefficiently. Oh yea, you also seem to be of the position that people with good information (not the misinformation or the lack thereof that is present today) can’t be trusted to make good decisions.
I just wanted to say that FlavaDave is kicking ass on this thread. There really isn’t much for me to add.