Amerika

[Varqanir]

[quote]SeanT wrote:
“That government is best which governs least.” And when Man is ready, that is the government they shall have.

[/quote]

Precisely the quote I had in mind. Man was ready in 1775, but he has devolved politically a great deal since then. Perhaps in another two hundred years he’ll be ready again.

[Varqanir]

[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:

whinging

[/quote]

Hmmm. You must have been in Australia a long time. Most of us bleedin’ septics would spell that word “whining”.

Oh, and your name is Dutch for what, again?

[De_sleeplijn]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I just wanted to say that FlavaDave is kicking ass on this thread. There really isn’t much for me to add.[/quote]

Doesn’t matter. He might be singing the right tune in here but out in the real world, nobody would give him the time of day.

[De_sleeplijn]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Hmmm. You must have been in Australia a long time. Most of us bleedin’ septics would spell that word “whining”.

Oh, and your name is Dutch for what, again? :P[/quote]

Around 16 months actually. When you live in a country you adapt to their sayings. When I first rolled in here I realised pretty quickly that the word thong has a different meaning here. The first gym I went to had a big sign… No thongs allowed.

It struck me as odd but later learned that is footwear over here.

I’ve got no problems in stating that I came onto this site for some good old fashioned trolling but deregulation of AAS is something I oppose.

I’ll lose this debate on this site, but I’ve given all you guys a fair hearing. Out in the real world if you even mention steroids and deregulation in the same sentence and you won’t even be given the time of day.

[De_sleeplijn]

[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
Well first off, I know that people don’t understand the true nature of any drugs (I don’t fuck with steroids) which is unfortunate. That’s the problem I’m addressing here. These drugs being illegal exacerbate the ignorance because there is a lack of reliable information about the drugs. As a side note, everything I’ve said so far applies to prostitution as well. It should be very legal and very regulated.
[/quote]

I’m glad Prof X started a thread in a steroid friendly forum to raise awareness. LOL. Try see what response it would get even just in a general sports forum. You’d be hated on like you wouldn’t believe.

Here’s the deal, you have a good who has some social value whether it be health reasons or recreation that the government is trying to reduce the supple of by criminalization. How do I know there is social value? The elasticity of demand for these goods is relatively inelastic. This means that for every 1% increase in price, there is less than a 1% decrease in demand for that good. The degree to which these goods are inelastic varies somewhat on the age of the population we’re speaking of. For teenagers, the demand is close to being unit elastic (for a 1% increase in price there’s a 1% decrease in demand) mostly because they are poor. It gets less elastic as the age and income of the individual goes up. So, by having these products illegal we are doing one good thing. We are having an affect on how much high schoolers are using drugs. Great, except that this can be done through plain ol’ regulation (think liquor - not that I support the drinking age).

Now, lets look at another subsect of the population who is also poor. Junkies. What do you think the elasticity of a junkie is? It’s damn near nothing. The demand a junkie has for his drug of choice is almost completely inelastic (for every 1% you increase the price of the good you will only decrease his demand by very small fractions of a percent). These people are, as has been noted, usually very poor (in large part due to spending all their money on drugs whose price is very inflated due to the war on drugs. i’ll have more on that), but remember, they have to have the drug. Well, they have to get money. There going to commit crimes to get money for the drug. This is very important point #1. By criminalizing the drug, we created a situation where these junkies must commit other crimes in order to sustain their habbit. In addition to these junkies being pulled into this seedy culture, you also pull teenagers, regular business men and women, etc., into the mix.

Well, what about the guys the “dealers?” These people are pulled into the drug business because of pronounced profits. For every resource spent on limiting supply of these goods, producers (the dealers) match it equally. So for every 100 million spent on reducing the supply of a good, there will be 100 million spent by producers to bring it to market. You might say, well where are the profits for these guys coming from? Of the 100 million spent by the producers, they maybe only spent 10 million to physically bring it to the market, but the price of the good is inflated because they are incorporating the risk of being caught into the price of the good. I risk my ass going to jail, you’re going to be paying more. The dealers who manage to not get caught make all that in profit.

So this far we’ve got two pretty stout reasons to legalize and regulate these goods.

1. People whose demand for the good in question is inelastic will end up committing other crimes in order to get money for the good.
2. There will always be someone willing to supply the goods in hopes of realizing a high profit margin.

Criminalization of drugs in general creates a very lucrative black market. The end result is that millions in resources are wasted to restrict the supply of goods that have a positive social value. The war on drugs is just a black hole for resources so to speak; for everyone from the government, to producers and consumers.

Now here is where I’d rather see the world follow Asia’s lead than legalise drugs. If you’re caught dealing, then face the firing squad. Dealers ruin lives, so lets get rid of them. You’ve gotta up the ante for these guys. The current reward of being a dealer seems to outweigh the risk. It might be time to tilt the scales heavily and make the reward not worth the risk. Maybe death is a little harsh, but put the cunts away for 20 years and see how keen people are to deal.

This kind of blind acceptance really rubs me the wrong way and in my opinion highlights fantastically exactly the kind mindset this thread was created to point out. I mean really, just because the majority of people agree you think it’s the right thing?

I don’t think the majority are always correct, but public opinion polls count to politicians. So you’re out of luck.

Slavery was a beautiful thing people. The majority agreed. Women have jobs? WTF damnit! And their not just cooks!? HOLY SHIT FUCK!

Blown out of proportion once again. In 200 years people won’t be looking back at this going “Shit, I can’t believe steroids were illegal back then.”

Drunk driving used to be much less socially acceptable until MADD changed the public opinion. You speak as if public opinion is an unwavering, unified entity. Public opinion will change. It always has. It’s people like me, and others everywhere, who try to challenge your misconceptions about what is right and wrong.

You’re a renegade fighting a noble cause. I get that. It’s cute but sit down tomorrow and try and tell some random person that steroid use is okay and see the reaction. You might sway them from “Steroids will make your penis small, make you go crazy, lose your hair and give you man boobs” with a solid hour of discussion but then you’ve gotta do it for the other 280 million that think they are evil. The public are uninformed but they fear change and you “roiders” are ruining Baseball which is synonomous with America like Apple Pie and Coca Cola. The public hate you and have zero time to listen to your pleas.

You have yet to give a solid reason that drugs should be illegal, other than saying that the majority (a misinformed majority at that) want it to be so and that it’s government’s job to govern no matter how inefficiently. Oh yea, you also seem to be of the position that people with good information (not the misinformation or the lack thereof that is present today) can’t be trusted to make good decisions.

No, I have said that there is not enough research done on it and I think America is turning into a pussy over medicated Nation seeking excuses and people to blame for why they are fuck ups.

Drugs (not talking steroids here) are another issue here and I don’t really want to get into that. I’d rather stick to the task at hand.

[Headhunter]

[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

Sorry bud. All problems start and end in the US.

Uh…okay…

Move out of Alice Springs and back to NSW or Perth. Living alone in a shack out there is affecting your brain. Seriously.

I’m impressed a fellow American could quote 2 cities and state of Australia. Kudos.
[/quote]

If you’re going to make me laugh, I’m going to have to quit arguing with you.

Peace…and enjoy OZ…best beer anywhere!!!

[Headhunter]

How about a license to own steroids? The government loves money — we have to give them something if we ever want steroids legalized. Make it have an age limit minimum 25 or some reasonable number and 3 (or whatever number) minimum blood tests per year to monitor health. To renew the license, you’d have to produce the requisite number of tests.

Nah, it probably makes more sense to lock someone up for years and years for having a couple of vials of Deca.

[FlavaDave]

[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I just wanted to say that FlavaDave is kicking ass on this thread. There really isn’t much for me to add.

Doesn’t matter. He might be singing the right tune in here but out in the real world, nobody would give him the time of day.[/quote]

sticks fingers in ears
I can’t HEAAAR YOOUUUU LALALALALALALAAAAA!

[FlavaDave]

[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
I’m glad Prof X started a thread in a steroid friendly forum to raise awareness. LOL. Try see what response it would get even just in a general sports forum. You’d be hated on like you wouldn’t believe.
[/quote]

I bring my point of view up any time someone brings up the topic of drugs, prostitution, etc. I know what the reaction is. They turn around once they hear what I have to say for the most part. Then again I socialize with fairly educated, open-minded people so maybe it’s different in your world. The truth is that the tide is turning.

Now here is where I’d rather see the world follow Asia’s lead than legalise drugs. If you’re caught dealing, then face the firing squad. Dealers ruin lives, so lets get rid of them. You’ve gotta up the ante for these guys. The current reward of being a dealer seems to outweigh the risk. It might be time to tilt the scales heavily and make the reward not worth the risk. Maybe death is a little harsh, but put the cunts away for 20 years and see how keen people are to deal.

You were so close. By increase the amount of time that these dealers have to spend in jail if caught you will raise the cost of drugs (causing junkies to spend more money, commit more crime to get that money) and raise the profit of the dealers who don’t get caught. In fact, by doing this you will spawn even more dealers. Your hearts in the right place, but in practice it just doesn’t work like that. When you say tilt the scales so that the reward isn’t worth the risk, that’s literally impossible.

Not sure what you do with your free time, but here’s an example. In my (extremely small) town, there are around 3-5 liquor stores. I can’t even estimate the number of people selling weed. I know for a fact that there are more than 10 people selling pain killers and psychadelics. I’ve never even looked for steroids and I know where I could get them. Exaggerated profits bring producers into the market place.

Remember,

Producer avoidance expenditures = supply restriction expenditures.

And within the avoidance expenditures, the cost to consumers is included which turns into profit for dealers who are not caught.

No matter how much you up the ante, the producers will do the same.

Blown out of proportion once again. In 200 years people won’t be looking back at this going “Shit, I can’t believe steroids were illegal back then.”

I completely disagree.

You might sway them from “Steroids will make your penis small, make you go crazy, lose your hair and give you man boobs” with a solid hour of discussion but then you’ve gotta do it for the other 280 million that think they are evil.

You are completely wrong. Read Malcolm Gladwell’s The Tipping Point. It deals this social epidemics and how they get started. It’s an awesome book.

No, I have said that there is not enough research done on it and I think America is turning into a pussy over medicated Nation seeking excuses and people to blame for why they are fuck ups.

Drugs (not talking steroids here) are another issue here and I don’t really want to get into that. I’d rather stick to the task at hand.

Drugs or steroids. It doesn’t matter because the arguments are one in the same.

[Zap_Branigan]

When China started executing drug dealers drug usage dropped.

[FlavaDave]

Well, draconion law is very effective. Humanitarians won’t let it be put in place (here in the US at least) because of the very obvious problem is possibly killing innocent people.

[Zen_warrior]

First, welcome back Prof! Good to have the Original X back! Man, you certainly know how to make an entrance, do you? “Prof X, the man who salts puny pussywhipped-boys’ wounds”

In regard to what your original post say, I’ll had these facts, taken from an 1992 article by Dr. François Péronnet, Ph.D, during his lecture at the Centre National de Documentation sur les Toxicomanies (National Center for Information on Drug Addiction) in Marseille, France.

-Since the steroids became illegal, there as been only four (4) clearly documented steroids-related deaths. Yep people, that’s even less than the number of murder in a regular month in New York, and it occured over decades.

-There is NO logical arguments against steroid use, other the ethical aspect. That’s coming from an Exercise Physiologist Ph.D who don’t bodybuild.

-Lack of medical advice is more harmful than actual use.

I’d post a link to the article as it’s pretty interesting, but it’s in French. People who want to read it can PM me for infos.

The only loophole I see in the arguments here, is that the pharmaceutical subculture that surrounds bodybuilding primarily, and now more and more pro sports, is that steroids per see are not the only substances used. Laxatives, fat burners and other such substances are probably a lot more harmful, yet they’re all over-the-counter.

[Stronghold]

This is crazy. I agree with everything that Flavadave is saying. The world must be coming to an end.

Seriously, Sleeplijin, you should try addressing Dave’s points. Hes made some good arguments and your only response has been “I want draconian law”. I think this pretty much completely invalidates your qualification to speak about what would be a “good government”.

[RSGZ]

[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
De sleeplijn wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I just wanted to say that FlavaDave is kicking ass on this thread. There really isn’t much for me to add.

Doesn’t matter. He might be singing the right tune in here but out in the real world, nobody would give him the time of day.

sticks fingers in ears
I can’t HEAAAR YOOUUUU LALALALALALALAAAAA![/quote]

Hahahah great response!

[De_sleeplijn]

[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
I bring my point of view up any time someone brings up the topic of drugs, prostitution, etc. I know what the reaction is. They turn around once they hear what I have to say for the most part. Then again I socialize with fairly educated, open-minded people so maybe it’s different in your world. The truth is that the tide is turning.
[/quote]
The open minded one’s are not the problems. I work a day job with a heap of short sighted ladies aged 50+. One day I printed off a steroid ebook and left the last page of it on the printer. Did the shit hit the fan or what? It got around that I was on steroids and now if I crack the shits over anything no matter how major it is, it must be part of the steroid rage.

Truth was, I printed it off for educational purposes but they don’t understand why anyone would find steroids fascinating.

Unfortunately, these are the typical people that would strongly oppose deregulation of AAS. No real knowledge but plenty to hate.

You were so close. By increase the amount of time that these dealers have to spend in jail if caught you will raise the cost of drugs (causing junkies to spend more money, commit more crime to get that money) and raise the profit of the dealers who don’t get caught. In fact, by doing this you will spawn even more dealers. Your hearts in the right place, but in practice it just doesn’t work like that. When you say tilt the scales so that the reward isn’t worth the risk, that’s literally impossible.

Your big time players will obviously keep going and make sure they’ve got more mules and guys who will take the fall but plenty of the smaller guys will disappear in my opinion.

Not sure what you do with your free time, but here’s an example. In my (extremely small) town, there are around 3-5 liquor stores. I can’t even estimate the number of people selling weed. I know for a fact that there are more than 10 people selling pain killers and psychadelics. I’ve never even looked for steroids and I know where I could get them. Exaggerated profits bring producers into the market place.

I live on the Gold Coast in Australia. There is no bigger mecca for recreational drug use and binge drinking in this country. It’s a crazy place.

Remember,

Producer avoidance expenditures = supply restriction expenditures.

And within the avoidance expenditures, the cost to consumers is included which turns into profit for dealers who are not caught.

No matter how much you up the ante, the producers will do the same.

Yeah but perhaps it will sway some of the smaller scale operations to pull out. The money would be nice, but 20 years in the can might change their minds.

I completely disagree.

I was more saying that steroid criminilization is very different to slavery and women working. In 200 years, I would say this will be legalized and everyone will be able to enjoy the fruits of AAS but there will be more unbiased study done on it and it should prove to be of benefit to the human race if used under doctors supervision.

You are completely wrong. Read Malcolm Gladwell’s The Tipping Point. It deals this social epidemics and how they get started. It’s an awesome book.

I’ll look into it but all I was saying is that the public is grossly misinformed and once people have an opinion, no matter how wrong it is, it becomes very hard to sway them from that.

Drugs or steroids. It doesn’t matter because the arguments are one in the same.

Not one in the same. The common theme is that Steroids can actually improve your quality of life and will be of benefit to the human race. The same cannot be said for Heroin, Ecstacy and the like.

[De_sleeplijn]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If you’re going to make me laugh, I’m going to have to quit arguing with you.

Peace…and enjoy OZ…best beer anywhere!!!

[/quote]

I’m never leaving Aus! I enjoy it way too much.

The beer is good but there is a lot of tough competition out there. Surely in the worlds top 5 though.

[De_sleeplijn]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
This is crazy. I agree with everything that Flavadave is saying. The world must be coming to an end.

Seriously, Sleeplijin, you should try addressing Dave’s points. Hes made some good arguments and your only response has been “I want draconian law”. I think this pretty much completely invalidates your qualification to speak about what would be a “good government”.[/quote]

I’ve addressed his comments. Read the fucking posts. Here are 3 common themes that keep coming up and my responses to them.

1. AAS deregulation, he might be onto something. But he will have to work a bit harder to convince me, and much harder again to convince the average Joe. More study needs to be done and not by guys trying to sell books on steroids. There needs to be much more closely monitored study by medical professionals. Hell, I’d sign up to be a guinea pig. Until that happens, keep steroids where they are. Illegal.

2. Legalization of all drugs: That is something that I will never subscribe to. They are the exact opposite to what you guys say about steroids, they are detrimental to a humans health and can completely consume a persons life. The small amount of study on AAS says it improves quality of life and we all know it is non addictive.

3. Why should the Government tell me what I can or can’t do? Because that is their job. The Government is supposed to put down guidelines for us to live by. 1 wife maximum, pay taxes annually, don’t drive too fast, don’t kill one another and so on.

Unfortunately for you guys the Government is either ill informed about steroids or they see little reason to deregulate. My old bosses reasoning may be correct. Why would the Government want people living to 100+ when they’ve got to pay their pension? Alcohol, cigarettes and fast food make sure most people don’t see past 80.

The Government also makes great money on Alcohol and Cigarettes. The money in steroids might not be there for them.

I would say the Government knows steroids can be good for humans but there is no money in it for them and the general public would be outraged at deregulating it and opinion polls would suffer. For the people on this board, it is unfortunate, but that is how they roll.

Or the Government may have only a small amount of research on it and find it too small to make any real decisions.

[De_sleeplijn]

Here’s something that Spellwin sent me this morning. Not 100% on topic but it shows that the big time guys do get caught and if stiffer penalties were inforced perhaps it would send a message to other dealers.

And you guys will probably enjoy reading it.

New York Police are Juicing Steroids & Getting away with it

In a rare and bizarre story, tons of police officers are being investigated amidst a huge steroid probe that leads straight to the NYPD. And there is an unbelievable and disgusting twist to the story too that screams double standard!

 It doesn�??t seem that long ago when Rodney King was shown on TV being beaten by four Los Angeles police officers.  Of course the event actually took place 16 years ago but I still remember seeing King on the ground as the officers continually beat him with their police batons in a horrific display.  

 Now Rodney King was certainly no angel as his prior record and high-speed chase that he led the officers on suggested.  However, he definitely didn�??t deserve to be the victim of the excessive police brutality displayed on tape that night.  And the four policemen involved in the beating probably deserved a little more than the acquittals that they all received in court.  It only took the L.A. riots and a federal trial before two of the officers were brought to justice in the form of a prison sentence.

This whole incident serves as a reminder to me that police officers are people just like the rest of us and some of them do things that are immoral and even illegal. The worst part is that the law takes it a lot easier on officers too meaning they can get away with a lot more. Even when it comes to being busted for using steroids. And this has never been more apparent than in a recent story involving a host of New York City policemen.

 It all began when authorities raided a Brooklyn pharmacy called Lowen�??s Compounding Pharmacy.  Lowen�??s had become a target stemming from the huge Signature Pharmacy bust down in Orlando where evidence linked Lowen�??s to Signature.  Inside Lowen�??s, authorities found over $8 million worth of steroids and Human Growth Hormone.

Investigators said that the pharmacy was probably importing Chinese steroids and raw materials. The steroids and HGH were then sold to people in the city, as well as other places. All in all, authorities think that Lowen�??s might have sold $30 million worth of steroids in just one year.

And while this is all eye-popping, the more interesting thing about the raid is that it turned up the names of six NYPD members. These names were obtained after state narcotics agents scoured medical records from the pharmacy and found that these six cops had some very questionable purchases on the lists. So if there are six officers with evidence linking them to possible steroid usage, could there be more?

That�??s exactly the same question New York authorities asked themselves as they decided to launch a probe into the whole Brooklyn and Staten Island precincts. And what they turned up was pretty shocking! Thirty officers from both precincts were suspected of purchasing and using anabolic steroids.

After turning up possible evidence on the officers, all 30 were taken to a NYPD medical facility so that they could be tested. The cops being tested were also to be placed on modified duty. However, if you were expecting any of these police officers to be arrested, then you�??d be highly mistaken.

 Deputy police commissioner Paul Browne made this clear when he said, �??We don�??t expect to arrest anybody.  We're looking at this as a possible case in which steroids were taken for personal use.  These officers will be subject to disciplinary action, not arrest.�??  Initially, news reports said that the 30 officers who were tested were going to be arrested.  But Browne called these reports �??wildly distorted and exaggerated.�??

 Now far be it from me to question the decision not to arrest any of the officers who would test positive for steroid usage.  After all, it is under my opinion that people should be free to use anabolic steroids for personal usage and cosmetic purposes under a doctor's supervision.  In fact, I still can�??t believe that they�??re not legal for those uses yet.

 However, it does seem a little unfair that the commissioner would already declare that no one on the force caught using roids will go to jail.  I mean what if 30 people from some other place of employment such as a factory or office were being investigated by the police for personal steroid usage.  I�??m sure that they wouldn�??t automatically be cleared of jail possibilities.

 The truth is though that the NYPD is going to protect their own and none of these officers will receive the punishment that an average citizen would under the same circumstances.  As unfair as that seems it�??s just the way it is going to be.  

 But to be honest, I really don�??t care if cops are using steroids for personal purposes.  And I am glad they did not get jail time and fines as other would. Like Ronnie Coleman, maybe more bodybuilders become police officers. 

Yours in sport,

George Spellwin

[De_sleeplijn]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
How about a license to own steroids? The government loves money — we have to give them something if we ever want steroids legalized. Make it have an age limit minimum 25 or some reasonable number and 3 (or whatever number) minimum blood tests per year to monitor health. To renew the license, you’d have to produce the requisite number of tests.

Nah, it probably makes more sense to lock someone up for years and years for having a couple of vials of Deca.[/quote]

Being administered under Doctor supervision could be a good way to go but there needs to be a lot of education for the Doctors. Most doctors I have spoken to about it are pretty closed minded however I do know guys that have actually scored gear of their Doctors.

No such luck here. I followed all the guidelines for a low test score and recorded one but the cunt wouldn’t give me anything.

It would make it very pricey under Doctor supervision but it would probably deter the guys aren’t really 100% into it.

[De_sleeplijn]

Alright. Let’s put a bow on this thread.

If you were trying to pursuade the Government to change it’s current policy on AAS, how would you do it?

1. How would you want AAS available to the public?

2. How could this be done in a safe manner?

3. What reasons would you state for making this happen? Please use facts, not “Because I wanna! Boo hoo”.

4. Why would this action benefit the USA?

5. Are there any factual cases you can use to support your argument?