[quote]Professor X wrote:
That means, unlike Carver’s genius assault on the peanut, there will be far less possible uses for these hot topic substances that are being banned based on nothing but exaggeration and scare tactics.[/quote]
Interesting that you bring up the peanut. With all these people who have nut allergies, if the gov’t’s job is to look after our safety then wouldn’t it make sense if nuts were illegal?
Ah, but when that idiot that does meth or whatever drug kills some unsuspecting by-stander waiting for a hot dog at the hot dog stand… because he looked like “the devil,” what do we as a society do?
Or how about the family that had their grandmother killed for change so the junkie could afford his fix?
You see, these social ills affect us all, not just the immediate family of the user.
How about the drunk driver that killed a family of six? Was it their family that should worry? Or is it you and me, driving on our highways worrying about the fool driving haphazardly next to us.
Your “don’t bother me with laws and regulations” attitude do not fix the problem. In fact, it just sweeps it under the rug.
If we, as a society, don’t fix our own, then we reap the benefits. Congratulations: you’ve just won… today.
Sentence drunk drivers and drug abusers to five years HARD labor… and see what happens.
[quote]kroby wrote:
Ah, but when that idiot that does meth or whatever drug kills some unsuspecting by-stander waiting for a hot dog at the hot dog stand… because he looked like “the devil,” what do we as a society do?
Or how about the family that had their grandmother killed for change so the junkie could afford his fix?
You see, these social ills affect us all, not just the immediate family of the user.
How about the drunk driver that killed a family of six? Was it their family that should worry? Or is it you and me, driving on our highways worrying about the fool driving haphazardly next to us.
Your “don’t bother me with laws and regulations” attitude do not fix the problem. In fact, it just sweeps it under the rug.
If we, as a society, don’t fix our own, then we reap the benefits. Congratulations: you’ve just won… today.
Sentence drunk drivers and drug abusers to five years HARD labor… and see what happens.[/quote]
But most people who drink alcohol do not drive drunk, and most heroin addicts don’t murder old ladies. I don’t think anyone is advocating anarchy, only one of the basic principles of liberty, which is that you are free to do whatever you want, as long as you aren’t harming anyone else.
Therefore, driving drunk or beating your wife is illegal, not alcohol. Stealing hubcaps or robbing old ladies is illegal. If you want to shoot heroin and pass out in a pile of your own feces, I don’t care. I just don’t want my tax dollars wasted on a futile effort to prevent you from doing that.
Glad it’s really you this time. I’ve been toying with starting a thread about presently absent members I missed. Yourself and Sasquatch would have been at the top. I do have views on the topics at hand as you no doubt guessed, but I am not up to all the typing at the moment
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that, when used in moderation, androgens are no worse than fast food, alcohol, or cigarettes but somehow, my personal choice to take them is a legal matter rather than a personal one as it is with these other substances. Of the four, steroids (and small amounts of alcohol, but thats beside the point) are the best for an individual’s health, regardless of the level of usage.
[/quote]
Agreed. But alcohol and cigarettes are just thing the government has to deal with because they have been around for too long. They obviously make a great deal of money from the the tax on them but it would be more trouble than it’s worth to put a ban on them.
If used correctly, I can see the benefits of AAS but I just think there are too many idiots out there that will use it incorrectly like alcohol.
You’ve just listed 4 totally irrational arguments that are completely out of context. Those sorts of examples are a long way from whether you can or can not take AAS legally. It is a totally void argument.
But that is exactly what I am saying. People will use AAS when they don’t need it. People use prozac, ritalin and all that other crap when they don’t need it so all signs point to them using AAS when not necessary.
95% of the people on this board who use would not need it to because I am very confident they are yet to hit their natural potential.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Perfectly said.
I’ve noticed that when many Americans live overseas, they become infected with the worship of government as an ‘end all be all’ solution to every problem. I hadn’t realized that the infection had spread to Oz. Bummer…
[/quote]
Sorry bud. All problems start and end in the US. When you move overseas you realise where we are going wrong. I’m not ashamed of America and I’m not the kind that travels around with a Canadian Flag on the backpack but we’ve got bigger issues than deregulation of AAS so I can’t see this issue being addressed for a very long time.
[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
No I understand what you’re saying. You’re just wrong. And I’m not saying this because I’m a steroid junkie. I’m just using the same position I have on all drugs. They should all be legalized. Yes, crack and herion, etc. All of them.
By criminalizing them you create this sort of dangerous environment that is associated with those drugs atm. Shit, I could write a whole paper on it. Basically it has to do with the elasticity of demand for those products (and elasticity of supply to a large degree). Don’t forget all the money that is wasted by the government not only in money spent on police, but court, other administration, and jails.
[/quote]
Have you every been around a true heroin junkie? Heroin is cheaper than a pack of smokes in Australia and every one of those pathetic cunts I see on the street is down and out for one reason. They have an addiction that has consumed their entire life. Making it legal, does nothing. It means that they don’t get a criminal record if caught using or dealing. You’re still going to have all the homeless people that would rather spend all their money on their habbit than rent, food and the essentials. Legalising will do nothing.
[quote]
I can expand if you want, but here’s what’s wrong with your ignorance argument: The product being illegal only exacerbates the ignorance problem. Much like with the devil weed, if you look for information you will likely find a good bit that simply says it will kill you. If this was a legal good there wouldn’t be such silly propaganda and the media wouldn’t have any reason to push such misinformation.
I’m sure there are lots of good sites that you can learn proper use on, but a lot of people are probably relying on their homeboy to tell them what to do and homeboi doesn’t know any better than them. Why doesn’t he know any better? Because the information isn’t easy enough to find.[/quote]
I’ve been to Thailand at a Muay Thai camp and I’ve used the gear over there. It’s great. There are many that travel there specifically to do so for sport, bodybuilding or vanity. They all seem very well informed on the matter and most get by without any sides.
However there were a few idiots in my camp who thought it a good idea to go and get some Test and just take that for energy! They knew noting about it and had no problem just whacking it into their system. I’d hate to know how those guys are faring after their time using. Learning about AAS is complex for the common man and none of them have the discipline to do so. It should not be readily available to them.
[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
However there were a few idiots in my camp who thought it a good idea to go and get some Test and just take that for energy! They knew noting about it and had no problem just whacking it into their system. I’d hate to know how those guys are faring after their time using. Learning about AAS is complex for the common man and none of them have the discipline to do so. It should not be readily available to them.
[/quote]
So it is the governments responsibility to protect people who are too idiotic to be careful about what they are doing with their bodies at the expensive of the personal freedoms of those who are intelligent enough to be responsible with their use? You havent made a solid point yet. All you keep saying is that people can hurt themselves with AAS and therefore it should be illegal. Under that logic, advil, nyquil, and Kentucky Fried Chicken should all be illegal. If they want to hurt themselves, then the government should let them. You have yet to answer me when I ask what right does a government have to intervene in the personal lives of its citizens?
It is not the responsibility of a government to define what is in the best interests of its citizens. If you want a government like that, then Im sure that you can find someone who would be more than willing to take all of that pesky liberty and personal choice out of your life and tell you exactly what you should and should not do. Just make sure that that person is not running things anywhere near where I am, because I most certainly do not want that.
I find it interesting that when asked where the bodies are, many of the pro-regulation advocates state that there simply have not been enough cases of abuse to draw those conclusions, but simultaneously prop their anti-testosterone legislation on the false notion that steroid use is a massive epidemic in America.
I never thought I’d say this but it’s good to have you back! The forums really weren’t the same without you.
Alcohol is a very serious problem. Steroids are not. Especially steroid abuse among 12 year olds. So why do we keep hearing about steroids on FOX when clearly there are more pressing issues? I am sick of reading about the unfounded (for the most part) tax-funded Mitchell report and the Barry Bonds trial.
And has all this media attention actually helped with the “steroid problem” at hand? Latest news is that 50 Cent has been “linked” to steroids. Now how is this supposed to help with steroid abuse among 12 year olds?
As for government control, I agree wholeheartedly with your stance. There seems to be alot less alcohol abuse in France where the age limit is 16. Same thing with marijuana in Amsterdam.
Again, good to have you back.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
So it is the governments responsibility to protect people who are too idiotic to be careful about what they are doing with their bodies at the expensive of the personal freedoms of those who are intelligent enough to be responsible with their use? You havent made a solid point yet.
[/quote]
Mate, you have not made a solid point either. Why should we allow deregulation of AAS? Tell me why. GIVE ME 1 REASON!
All you guys do is whinge about the Government saying what you can and can’t do. Boo fucking hoo. Some people would like to have 4 or 5 wives but it just isn’t on the cards. By your logic it’s not hurting anyone, so lets go for it!
Plenty of right. You live in a society and you are to do what the Government sets as standards. It’s pretty simple otherwise there would be anarchy.
Hahahaha. Did you re read that before you hit submit? Pure genius. Wouldn’t that be a top priority of a Government. Thankyou for that, I haven’t laughed that hard in quite some time.
We’re not talking a dictatorship here. The US Government decides that certain things are not on for their citizens and AAS being illegal is just one of those many things. Deal with it and stop your fucking crying. You live in the land of the free. Your sounding like a spoilt brat. You can’t have everything you want. Go try a country where there is no democracy, no stable government and see how you like that.
The people with a decent head above their shoulders and a set of balls can sort some decent gear out for themselves. They can accept that they are on the other side of the law on that play and don’t whine and bitch.
Now that is a decent point. Congratulations you’ve finally made some decent contact. I’ve been away from mainstream US society for a long time seeing I was in the Military then headed over here so I can’t comment on it being an epidemic. But I would guess that it is not.
It was no skin off my nose when I was on the gear in the US. I had my sources, I bought it and I would have accepted full responsibility had the authorities caught me. I’m patriotic to a degree but not blinded to the point where I think the Govt has it all right. But illegal steroid use is one point I was happy to deal with the consequences.
You’re not fighting some noble cause here. You live a good age, a good country which people are OS dying to protect and we’re debating about AAS deregulation. You’re one of the lucky one’s so don’t feel like you are hard done by.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
De sleeplijn wrote:
Should people have to take an IQ test before they vote? No. That’s the beauty of democracy.
Otherwise known as an idiocracy.
Probably belongs as a thread in PWI, but I’ll ask anyway:
Do you think there should be some sort of intelligence or knowledge test voters must pass before being allowed to vote?
I really haven’t considered the topic that, much, but my initial response is that having people be required to actually know the various platforms of everyone running sure beats out letting people vote for someone “because he believes in the bible” or “because he’s black”. Then again, I’m sure the issue goes far deeper than than.
Just a thought, wanted your opinion.[/quote]
Okay, Cap. Here it is.
I don’t think that intelligence as measured by an IQ test is that useful a yardstick for measuring civic awareness or responsibility. And denying the franchise to a huge segment of otherwise eligible voters who are below an arbitrary IQ threshold is asking for big, big trouble.
Requiring voters to “know the issues” sounds good in theory, but would be nearly impossible to test. Who would create the tests, who would administer them, and who would compile the results? It would be a huge waste of money and time, at taxpayer expense, which would have to be repeated for every national, state, and local election… plus it wouldn’t even prove that the prospective voter even understood the issues: just that he memorized some answers probably provided for him by his party.
No, I’m with Heinlein on this one: a voluntary 2-year stint in the service of one’s country should be a prerequisite for being able to vote on its policies, or to hold public office.
That would ensure, as Hedo put it, that the only people with the franchise are the ones who care more about personal responsibility than they do about personal entitlement.
And for anyone who thinks that I am advocating military rule, note that “national service” is not synonymous with “military service.”
[quote]kroby wrote:
Ah, but when that idiot that does meth or whatever drug kills some unsuspecting by-stander waiting for a hot dog at the hot dog stand… because he looked like “the devil,” what do we as a society do?
[/quote]
You have no idea what meth is do you? I mean seriously what the fuck?
[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
kroby wrote:
Ah, but when that idiot that does meth or whatever drug kills some unsuspecting by-stander waiting for a hot dog at the hot dog stand… because he looked like “the devil,” what do we as a society do?
You have no idea what meth is do you? I mean seriously what the fuck?[/quote]
lol
[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
kroby wrote:
Ah, but when that idiot that does meth or whatever drug kills some unsuspecting by-stander waiting for a hot dog at the hot dog stand… because he looked like “the devil,” what do we as a society do?
You have no idea what meth is do you? I mean seriously what the fuck?[/quote]
Yes, I do. Personally. It makes you fucking crazy. Makes you see things and think completely illogical things.
I mean, seriously, have you ever tried the drug? STFU.
[quote]kroby wrote:
FlavaDave wrote:
kroby wrote:
Ah, but when that idiot that does meth or whatever drug kills some unsuspecting by-stander waiting for a hot dog at the hot dog stand… because he looked like “the devil,” what do we as a society do?
You have no idea what meth is do you? I mean seriously what the fuck?
Yes, I do. Personally. It makes you fucking crazy. Makes you see things and think completely illogical things.
I mean, seriously, have you ever tried the drug? STFU.[/quote]
Meth is basically the same chemical as the amphetamine based ADHD medications.
The usual effect is confidence, euphoria and clarity of thought - enhanced thinking ability and not delusions, illogical thoughts and hallucinations as you state. However it does tend to make one very task focused almost to the point of obsession with a single task or stream of thought. It only AMPLIFIES what is already within you.
To a large degree, the effects of a given drug are influenced by set (mindset), setting, and expectation. If you are in the mindset that it will make you crazy and illogical, and if you expect that, then you are setting yourself up for that experience.
Amphetamines do not cause delusions in themselves - it is the lack of food and sleep deprivation plus neurotransmitter imbalance from dopaminergic depletion that causes psychosis in SOME individuals after a long speed run and crash. The whole body goes out of whack after it’s been overstimulated and deprived of nutrients and rest for an extended period of time. Fatigue and stress in itself can cause psychosis in an individual, and I wouldn’t attribute psychosis directly to amphetamines per se - it is the effect of complex psychological, neurochemical and physiological factors.
[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Perfectly said.
I’ve noticed that when many Americans live overseas, they become infected with the worship of government as an ‘end all be all’ solution to every problem. I hadn’t realized that the infection had spread to Oz. Bummer…
Sorry bud. All problems start and end in the US. [/quote]
Uh…okay…
Move out of Alice Springs and back to NSW or Perth. Living alone in a shack out there is affecting your brain. Seriously.
[quote]kroby wrote:
FlavaDave wrote:
kroby wrote:
Ah, but when that idiot that does meth or whatever drug kills some unsuspecting by-stander waiting for a hot dog at the hot dog stand… because he looked like “the devil,” what do we as a society do?
You have no idea what meth is do you? I mean seriously what the fuck?
Yes, I do. Personally. It makes you fucking crazy. Makes you see things and think completely illogical things.
I mean, seriously, have you ever tried the drug? STFU.[/quote]
ROID RAGE!!!
But to answer your question as to what we as a society should do: Regulation is fine. Criminalization is not.
[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
Have you every been around a true heroin junkie? Heroin is cheaper than a pack of smokes in Australia and every one of those pathetic cunts I see on the street is down and out for one reason. They have an addiction that has consumed their entire life. Making it legal, does nothing. It means that they don’t get a criminal record if caught using or dealing. You’re still going to have all the homeless people that would rather spend all their money on their habbit than rent, food and the essentials. Legalising will do nothing.
[/quote]
They are down and out that’s for sure. No one is saying that a junkie doesn’t obviously have personal issues and no one is saying that legalizing these drugs will fix those people’s personal issues. Here’s the thing that legalization will do: it will help out the next generation of would-be junkies.
Everyone here grew up in an anti-drug culture. We’ve all been told how horrible these drugs were and that it was even possible to be addicted after one hit/line/shot. Well, a lot of us decided somewhere down the line to use a drug other than alcohol and guess what? We realized that everything we had been told about drugs was untrue! Well shit. Now I want to try out some other drugs because I like the effects, but I can’t find any reliable information on them (proper use, non-exaggerated warnings). Well maybe the dealer knows how to do it? Shit I guess I’ll just wing it. Hand me the belt.
In Amsterdam when you walk into a Smart Shop to buy mushrooms they have a rating system that tells you the relative strength of each strain and description of what the high is going to be like along with warnings. The staff is well informed and gives you instructions on what to do if the trip is getting to strong for you.
Yes I realize that mushroom junkies don’t exist and that those two drugs are apples to oranges, but think about each of those situations (because they are very real) and ask me which one sounds like the person in question is about to do something incorrectly.
You’re saying there are stupid people everywhere?
Tell me why some people abusing a drug should keep me from using it correctly.
Hey guys some people spend money recklessly. Money is the problem. Lets criminalize it.
That’s seriously the rationale you are using.
There is not a big enough roll eyes emoticon on all the internet for this.
You can only give people information. You can’t make them do anything. It’s called free will.
It would be irresponsible of me to talk about being well informed and responsible and not give a source for information for anyone lurking in the background to read.