Am I Training Correctly?

Training
41

I don’t think it’s bad to start lifting to ‘get back’ at an ex. I think a lot here started lifting to get attention from girls/guys, because they felt weak or picked on, etc, and (hopefully) it grows into something healthier and you learn to love the process itself, not just the ‘purpose’. So I think that’ll come with time.

If your goal is to just look better, I’d personally say Madcow isn’t the way to go. I’m not going to try and start a shit storm, but if you’r just trying to look good, yes progressive overload is the way to go, but neglecting isolation work will probably not give you the ‘hoe-ready’ physique you’re looking for unless your genetically lucky and develop body parts very evenly with only compound movements. People can disagree, that’s cool, whatever, different strokes something something to skin a cat something something.

I really like Big Beyond Belief, but honestly anything with a little iso work would help. Just little things like curls, extensions, lateral raises, will not only help our physique but keep from muscular imbalances. Maybe something like the Cube, 5/3/1 with some BBer assistance work, a Push/Pull/Legs, that Matt Rhodes program, Ed Coan routine, PHAT, just anything with some progression on big lifts but some finishing touches with iso work. Idk a lot about Madcow but most of times people who run those style of programs have strength I want but not the physique.

And of course someone can come in and say I’m small and weak and so I should STFU, alright cool, maybe I should. But I just think maybe a program should be in line with your goals ESPECIALLY when you don’t have a ‘passion’ for lifting yet it seems, so achieving your goals (which seem to by physique related) will make spark that flame a bit more.

42

I feel like people are mislead when i say “Gf broke up with me, gotta do operation how do you like me now”. Yes, thats one thing that motivates me, but iv been lifting on and of for a while now, played university sports, etc etc. What i want to do now, is reach a level of fitness (physique wise aka ripped like a mother fucker) that iv never reached. NOT just because my gf left, but because thats something i want to achieve. Does she play a role in it? yep. is that the only reason im doing it? hell no. Its for my confidence, ego, etc etc etc. I could care less if she notices or not, if she does? peeerfect. BROwned. If she doesnt, oh well im still sexy…(soon).

43

I disagree, Spidey. I think the programs you list would be fine alternatives, but that Madcow is just as good and actually has certain big advantages over them, for a relatively “beginner” lifter.

First, “muscular imbalances” are just not something to worry about in the scope of one 2-4 month training cycle, especially for someone who has not been training particularly well in the past. Second, Madcow does have isolation work – curls, extensions and dips - just not every day. Third, the idea that someone is going to “develop unevenly” from just doing compound movements is 90% bodybuilding lore BS. It may apply to some degree to advanced lifters who have already built a foundation of muscle and strength, but does not apply to the OP, or to people trying to build a “muscular physique” for the first time. And again, it’s just not something that happens over the course of one program. If we’re talking about a powerlifter who’s been focusing on just the big 3 and assistance lifts for 5-10 years, maybe there’s a point about “unevenness” there, but many powerlifters still have good all-around physqiues.

The advantage of Madcow is that it spells out the progression clearly, such that progress is easy to measure, and it simply works very well to produce weekly results. I.e, there is little for a new lifter to fuck up, if they just follow the program. The programs you mention involve the lifter making more individual decisions with regard to variables like exercise selection, frequency, volume, lifting to failure, progression, etc. And a newbie isn’t well-equipped to make those decisions. Madcow allows for some progress and experience/education in a simple format.

For the record, Madcow was the first program I did (like 8 years ago), that really made a difference for me, after a couple years of less-than-optimal training. I was just looking through one of my old logbooks, and noted multiple “hypertrophy” focused programs I did in between Madcow cycles that produced zero results. Why? Because my nutrition and training instincts/knowledge were far from optimal, so doing high-rep and isolation work just wasn’t very effective. In contrast, when you lift for strength, progress is easily verifiable, and leads toward greater hypertrophy potential over time (when one is more experienced and stronger and smarter).

Also, given that his goal is fat loss, it makes sense (to me), to try to build some strength at the same time, given that muscle gain isn’t likely to happen in a caloric deficit.

44

Could we get photos of the kinds of results people have gotten on Madcow?

I feel like right now we’re going in circles about lifting theory, and this would also help the TC know if it’s the direction he would want to go in.

45

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Could we get photos of the kinds of results people have gotten on Madcow?

I feel like right now we’re going in circles about lifting theory, and this would also help the TC know if it’s the direction he would want to go in.[/quote]

I feel like this is kind of missing the point… it’s not a magic program, it’s just a good 3x week full-body strength routine.

But if you google image search “Madcow 5x5 before and after” you’ll get a bunch of photo “evidence.”

46

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Could we get photos of the kinds of results people have gotten on Madcow?

I feel like right now we’re going in circles about lifting theory, and this would also help the TC know if it’s the direction he would want to go in.[/quote]

I feel like this is kind of missing the point… it’s not a magic program, it’s just a good 3x week full-body strength routine.

But if you google image search “Madcow 5x5 before and after” you’ll get a bunch of photo “evidence.”[/quote]

I figured as a good routine it would produce good results.

I was hoping for something from the advocates here. I recommend 5/3/1 a lot because I loved the resultd it got me, and I share them pretty often. I feel like it is part of the responsibility of being an advocate for a method.

47

As far as personal results, according to my old logbook my first Madcow cycle:

Week of June 4th, 2006
Squat 255x5
Bench 165x5
Deadlift 215x5

Week of July 30th, 2006
Squat 300x5
Bench 190x5
Deadlift 275x5

That was pretty good progress in 2 months. I don’t have any pictures.

I did the program again a few years ago and reached something like 400x5 squat, 245x5 bench, 415x5 deadlift, but I don’t have that logbook handy so can’t quote exact numbers or dates.

My brother has also used the program with good results. If you follow it correctly with decent nutrition I’m very confident in its ability to add at least 5lbs per week to your big lifts for 4-8 weeks in a row (edit: for a beginner / intermediate lifter). Which is pretty good progress.

48

Craze9: I’m down to talk about a few of your points here, if you don’t mind. Don’t want this to be a pissing match. I’ve never done Madcow, so I can’t attest to that. But I didn’t get good results with 3x a week full-body stuff. Strength and size of anything significant didn’t come until I upped the volume a good deal. So you and I might just be different people who respond to different things.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘unevenly’, but I feel when concerning aesthetics, one can looks less aesthetic from lacking rear and lateral delts, lats, quads (which can be neglected depending on the style of Squat one does), etc. My program is 90% compounds. I do Squats, Front Squats, Sumo DL, SLDL, Incline, Flat Bench (regular, close grip, and Wide Grip), Chins and Rows. Last 10 minutes of my sessions, I’ll do leg curls, bicep curls, extensions, laterals, etc, and found they have helped TREMENDOUSLY with not only filling out my physique, but also just helping with small weaknesses. Front Squats have helped my Back Squat, Incline has helped my Flat Bench, bicep curls got rid of my elbow tendinitis i developed on a Full-body no isolation program.

I’m not even sure what you’re referring to when you say unevenness could come 5-10 years of PL’er focusing on the Big 3, because most American PL’ing programs include a lot of iso work. Dan Green does lots of DB work and laterals. Ed Coan used leg press, leg extensions on his Squat day. The Lilly’s all do a lot of iso work. George Leeman does a ton of BB’ing style volume. Those who look good and perform well in Big 3 all do iso work. I’m not saying concentrating on adding weight to the bar is bad, that’s going to get OP results. But you don’t have to neglect the other stuff. OP wants to get lean and look good when doing it. I feel that requires some decent volume, and than what MadCow recommends.

Most the programs I mentioned have spread sheets online. Coan, 5/3/1, Cube, Juggernaut, WS4SB, anything like that. I don’t feel OP debating on using seated or standing laterals as his delt iso movement will hinder him in any way.

49

Here’s an old thread of mine when I was a bit skinnier, but I was very lean just from doing Big Beyond Belief, then a John Meadows program. I know T3hPwnsher said post some pics, so at least I can say I know these programs work well for being moderately lean, and I wasn’t even dieting here.

50

You say you didn’t get strength or size gains on 3x / week full-body programs. You may be a genetic outlier, but I’m skeptical that such programs just won’t work for you. I don’t know your current strength levels, but I’m pretty confident that a program like Madcow or Texas Method or 5/3/1 Full-body would work perfectly well for you to build strength. And that is their purpose - strength. If your diet during that training period was sufficient to support muscle growth, I think you’d gain some size as well. That doesn’t mean these are the best programs for you, if you’re focused solely on physique then they wouldn’t be. But I do think they work well, and have used them myself.

Besides that, there are two points at issue here. One is about optimal training for building muscle, which is a huge contentious topic, but most experts generally agree 1) beginners should focus on progressive overload in compound exercises and 2) both strength-focused (high intensity as % of 1RM) and “volume-focused” hypertrophy / isolation work have a role to play. I’m not against isolation work, just don’t think it’s anywhere near as important as progress on the big lifts for MOST lifters and that Madcow 5x5 doesn’t have “too little”, given the program’s purpose. Same with aesthetics / unevenness – this has been addressed a million times before, but it’s silly for a beginner lifter to worry about rear delts or biceps peak when they haven’t built their first 10 lbs of LBM yet. Powerlifting training varies, but most non-assisted powerlifters don’t spend a lot of training time on isolation work, and certainly don’t worry about “aesthetics” (yet often have aesthetic physiques anyway).

The other point is about how to train when your goal is fat loss. There’s also disagreement on this topic, but recent opinion tends to side with the idea that heavy lifting is better than higher-rep “pump” work, despite the old training advice (of Golden Era bodybuilders) that you should lift with high reps when cutting. For this reason it makes sense to me to do a program with a large strength component when losing fat, because not only will it retain muscle fine but, especially for lifters who aren’t that strong to begin with, they can actually gain strength while losing fat.

51

Craze, by chance, do you compete in powerlifting?

52

I guess we just disagree on how much isolation work is necessary. I’m not suggesting anyone ‘worry’ about their bicep peak or rear delts. lol. I agree compound movements are most important. And a 3x a week split may have worked for me, as those higher isolation programs may have worked for you in a different situation. I’m not against your ideologies, I just think given the goals of the OP, there’s better options.

I think the programs I mentioned can progress strength as fast if not faster than Madcow, and someone will come out with a better looking physique in the end. That’s all I’m saying. Doing isolation work doesn’t take anything away from a program, and usually adds little time to a workout’s length while helping work capacity. I think Big beyond Belief or Westside for Skinny Bastards would be great for OP.

53

why shouldn’t beginners be concerned about their biceps or rear delts? if they’re training to look good, then what’s the harm?

54

Punisher: I’ve never competed, but have thought about it and may in the future.

Spidey and Yogi I feel like you guys are missing my point. Which is really just about recommending Madcow as a good program for a beginner/intermediate lifter to do for 2-3 months without adding a bunch of shit to it. And that its simplicity is what makes it a better choice than those other programs, FOR A NEWBIE LIFTER.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I guess we just disagree on how much isolation work is necessary.
[/quote]

Necessary for what? For hypertrophy on a weak/lagging body part? Or for building general strength while in a caloric deficit? Those are two very different purposes.

Don’t you think the goal of a specific training microcycle is important? And that different microcycles can have different goals, even if the longterm goal (e.g. look big and strong and muscular) is the same? And that some goals may require less isolation work than others?

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I’m not suggesting anyone ‘worry’ about their bicep peak or rear delts. lol. I agree compound movements are most important. And a 3x a week split may have worked for me, as those higher isolation programs may have worked for you in a different situation. I’m not against your ideologies, I just think given the goals of the OP, there’s better options.
[/quote]

The point about biceps and rear delts is simply that worrying about those muscles BEFORE having built significant muscle at all is a waste of energy. Given a well-balanced program, the body is going to tend to add muscle in proportion everywhere, with variance based on genetics. Doing Bent Over Rows 2x week and Chinups on Wednesday and Curls on Fridays (what is prescribed by Madcow) is plenty of work for biceps to grow for most people.

And not doing a lateral raise for a few months is not going to make a significant difference in a guy building his physique for the first time. I didn’t do a single lateral raise for like 7 years, but no one saw me and noted my glaring “bodypart weakness” in my medial delts.

Not overemphasizing isolation work makes even more sense when training for fat loss, because you aren’t going to be building significant muscle anyway, and might as well focus your energy on bigger “bang for buck” movements.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I think the programs I mentioned can progress strength as fast if not faster than Madcow, and someone will come out with a better looking physique in the end. That’s all I’m saying. Doing isolation work doesn’t take anything away from a program, and usually adds little time to a workout’s length while helping work capacity. I think Big beyond Belief or Westside for Skinny Bastards would be great for OP.[/quote]

Here I just disagree 100%. BBB is going to build strength at the same rate as Madcow? A hypertrophy-focused bodybuilding plan with the same amount of weekly volume for the delts as for the entire lower body? That only goes below 8 reps for like 3 weeks out of 18? I don’t think so.

I have no problem with BBB as a program, it’s one I’d actually like to do, but it is 100% not one I would recommend to myself 8 years ago. There are too many variables to fuck up – exercise, load, intensity, failure, rep range, etc – not enough emphasis on adding weight to the big lifts, and therefore progress is more difficult to measure. You look at your rear delts in the mirror and eyeball if they’re growing? I would much rather have focused all my training time on getting stronger in the main movements before doing “hypertrophy-specific” work in the 10-15 rep range.

WS4SB is also an okay program, but the lower frequency, to me, does not suggest faster strength gains than Madcow. Also, like BBB, there are more variables for the lifter to choose for himself (and potentially screw up), including progression – how do you progress the lifts? I have always been a shitty bench presser, so the idea that I could work up to a 3-5RM one week, and then just add weight to the bar the following, simply didn’t work. I did Westside starting in May 2007 for a few months, and looking at the logbook now did not get significantly stronger on the program. I’m sure I made suboptimal programming decisions, and that my nutrition wasn’t as good as it could have been, but that’s kind of the point – inexperienced lifters are going to make mistakes.

As for the OP, he can do whatever he wants, but I still don’t see why you think BBB or WS4SB would be a better choice for him, especially in a caloric deficit.

55

Oh shit. This escalated quickly.

Definitely digging the advice I’m getting from anyone. I find this forum frustrating sometimes, as you can never get a “actual” answer. Its just a bunch of bickering back and forth (lets just go gladiator style).

I’m gonna try a few things. Stick to madcow, and incorporate complexes/iso movements on days where madcow isnt schedule. Ill adjust accordingly. I do enjoy the madcow workout, makes me feel accomplished.

56

I was curious, because your observations on powerlifters were different than what I had experienced. I was going to see if it was a regional thing

57

hmmm…not sure how this thread turned into a iso v. compound debate off my post about madcow. I was referring to the notion that assistance work “doesn’t really matter as long as you hit your numbers” mentality for a lifter. If a movement can be conceivably skipped, then why do it in the first place? Everything should be treated with importance.

Another thing to consider in this whole iso v. compound thing that is being completely overlooked. Iso movements are not just for aesthetics. They’re not just something “thrown in” to complement the physique. They actually help structural issues over time, which help establish more efficient movement patterns on the big lifts, which lead to bigger numbers, or at least yield more results out of moving your current numbers (a squat with near perfect form is much more productive for muscle growth then a good morning looking abomination). Most lifters spend their day sitting hunched over and could do well to add iso work to strengthen upper back, rear delts, external rotators, etc.

I remember when I implemented an all out assault on my back with two days focused on lat iso and stretching movements, and two days doing rear delt, trap, rhomboid, and external rotator iso work in between every set of presses I saw a huge jump in bench and ohp numbers.

A program focused on only the big movements is not at all “well rounded.” Imbalances will accumulate unless you are a genetic outlier who just had great form on all the big movements from the beginning.

58

[quote]craze9 wrote:

1)Necessary for what? For hypertrophy on a weak/lagging body part? Or for building general strength while in a caloric deficit? Those are two very different purposes.

2)Don’t you think the goal of a specific training microcycle is important? And that different microcycles can have different goals, even if the longterm goal (e.g. look big and strong and muscular) is the same? And that some goals may require less isolation work than others?

3)The point about biceps and rear delts is simply that worrying about those muscles BEFORE having built significant muscle at all is a waste of energy. Given a well-balanced program, the body is going to tend to add muscle in proportion everywhere, with variance based on genetics. Doing Bent Over Rows 2x week and Chinups on Wednesday and Curls on Fridays (what is prescribed by Madcow) is plenty of work for biceps to grow for most people.

And not doing a lateral raise for a few months is not going to make a significant difference in a guy building his physique for the first time. I didn’t do a single lateral raise for like 7 years, but no one saw me and noted my glaring “bodypart weakness” in my medial delts.

Not overemphasizing isolation work makes even more sense when training for fat loss, because you aren’t going to be building significant muscle anyway, and might as well focus your energy on bigger “bang for buck” movements.

4)Here I just disagree 100%. BBB is going to build strength at the same rate as Madcow? A hypertrophy-focused bodybuilding plan with the same amount of weekly volume for the delts as for the entire lower body? That only goes below 8 reps for like 3 weeks out of 18? I don’t think so.

I have no problem with BBB as a program, it’s one I’d actually like to do, but it is 100% not one I would recommend to myself 8 years ago. There are too many variables to fuck up – exercise, load, intensity, failure, rep range, etc – not enough emphasis on adding weight to the big lifts, and therefore progress is more difficult to measure. You look at your rear delts in the mirror and eyeball if they’re growing? I would much rather have focused all my training time on getting stronger in the main movements before doing “hypertrophy-specific” work in the 10-15 rep range.

WS4SB is also an okay program, but the lower frequency, to me, does not suggest faster strength gains than Madcow. Also, like BBB, there are more variables for the lifter to choose for himself (and potentially screw up), including progression – how do you progress the lifts? I have always been a shitty bench presser, so the idea that I could work up to a 3-5RM one week, and then just add weight to the bar the following, simply didn’t work. I did Westside starting in May 2007 for a few months, and looking at the logbook now did not get significantly stronger on the program. I’m sure I made suboptimal programming decisions, and that my nutrition wasn’t as good as it could have been, but that’s kind of the point – inexperienced lifters are going to make mistakes.

As for the OP, he can do whatever he wants, but I still don’t see why you think BBB or WS4SB would be a better choice for him, especially in a caloric deficit.[/quote]

I’m not good with multi-quotes so I’m going this route lol

1)OP’s goal is to look good and lose some fat (correct me if I’m wrong OP). He didn’t say build general strength in a caloric deficit or to bring up a lagging body part. Idk why you mentioned those options. I’m saying Iso work is important if you want to maximize your aesthetic potential.

  1. I’m fine with that. Once again, this is a disagreement on what this microcycle should consist of lol

3)I’m not sure how much energy you waste thinking about rear delt and bicep development. I train both those body parts frequently, and never has it bogged me down mentally, nor have I found the addition of those lifts hurting my recovery. They actually helped not only with looking better,but improved shoulder and elbow health. The fact you didn’t do a lateral raise for 7 years is cool. I doubt random people would know about, let alone comment on your lateral head development, but if you’re trying to say it didn’t lag for you, cool. Any pics? I’m not trying to call you out, just lateral delts are notoriously stubborn to develop, and really tie a physique together, so if OP is trying to maximize aesthetics, maybe doing a few sets here and there wouldn’t hurt. You once again talk about focusing your energy on ‘big’ movements, but once again I find a little iso work takes little to not time and doesn’t hurt performance on the main lifts.

4)You’ve read BBB right? The entire program is about adding weight to the bar. Just because it is getting stronger with higher reps doesn’t mean it’s not strength. Idk why 8 reps is too high of a number to get stronger on. And if those aren’t what you’d recommend to yourself back then, cool. But those programs are more in-line with OP’s goals. WS4SB may work better for him strength wise, as could BBB. I just know both of those don’t lack the volume and iso work Madcow does, so they will, if even done have right, leave OP with a slightly better physique. I feel it’s pretty hard to screw up all these variables you speak of, both programs are clear cut and explain exactly what to do. Like I said, if OP picks incline curls over preacher curls, I doubt it’ll hurt his progress, and those are the kind of decisions he’s making on these programs.

I think you want OP to just focus on his general strength in the 5ish rep range. He said he wants to lose some fat and look better. So I’m just providing info on what appears to be his goal. I could be wrong, just wasting my time. Craze9 you maybe be bigger, leaner, and stronger than me and can just prove that I’m wrong on this, that’s cool. Maybe you have an impressive physique from Madcow. If so, you’re not leading OP astray, and he should probably listen to you. lol

59

This has never been a general debate about compounds vs isolation. It’s about the Madcow program, and whether an inexperienced (self-described “noob”) lifter needs to add isolation work to the program when his primary goal is to lose fat.

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
hmmm…not sure how this thread turned into a iso v. compound debate off my post about madcow. I was referring to the notion that assistance work “doesn’t really matter as long as you hit your numbers” mentality for a lifter. If a movement can be conceivably skipped, then why do it in the first place? Everything should be treated with importance.
[/quote]

I agree that isolation work matters, but the big lifts matter more. It’s that simple. If you have to cut your workout short by 20 minutes, what do you eliminate? The small iso movements.

So… everything should NOT be treated with equal importance. More experienced guys than me – Jim Wendler, Mark Rippetoe, CT – all agree on this point very clearly. There’s even a 5/3/1 template with ZERO assistance work, for busy people.

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Another thing to consider in this whole iso v. compound thing that is being completely overlooked. Iso movements are not just for aesthetics. They’re not just something “thrown in” to complement the physique. They actually help structural issues over time, which help establish more efficient movement patterns on the big lifts, which lead to bigger numbers, or at least yield more results out of moving your current numbers (a squat with near perfect form is much more productive for muscle growth then a good morning looking abomination). Most lifters spend their day sitting hunched over and could do well to add iso work to strengthen upper back, rear delts, external rotators, etc.
[/quote]

I agree - isolation work is important in the grand scheme, especially upper back / rotator work to balance out lots of pressing. And certain assistance work can improve strength on the big lifts.

That doesn’t change my recommendation re: Madcow for a beginner lifter, though. And is a different issue from knowing how to perform the big lifts correctly (real squat vs good morning squat).

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I remember when I implemented an all out assault on my back with two days focused on lat iso and stretching movements, and two days doing rear delt, trap, rhomboid, and external rotator iso work in between every set of presses I saw a huge jump in bench and ohp numbers.
[/quote]

Yeah, you probably addressed structural weak points that spurred new progress. Were you a beginner lifter when this happened?

Is a beginner lifter better served by addressing structural weak points in the rear delts, rhomboids, and traps when he is capable of rapid progression on the big lifts just by adding weight to the bar?

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
A program focused on only the big movements is not at all “well rounded.” Imbalances will accumulate unless you are a genetic outlier who just had great form on all the big movements from the beginning. [/quote]

Will these imbalances accumulate in a 3-month training cycle?

Will these imbalances accumulate in a program with equal pulling and pressing volume like Madcow (actually more pulling volume if you do chins on Wednesday)?

So do you contend that programs focused on the big movements including Starting Strength, 5/3/1, CT’s 915, etc, which do not include specified rear delt isolation work, are not “well-rounded” programs?

Also, for the record, the question was never whether the OP can add 100 reps of band pull-aparts per workout to Madcow. He wanted to add significant pressing volume.

60

[quote]craze9 wrote:
I agree that isolation work matters, but the big lifts matter more. It’s that simple. If you have to cut your workout short by 20 minutes, what do you eliminate? The small iso movements.
[/quote]

Short answer, you don’t let that happen. You dont watch your favorite show on netflix that night or make some other sacrifice; however, I know some guys on here are fathers, on-call doctors, etc. so…

If fat loss is primary goal, you reduce rest times and get the prescribed volume done in a shorter amount of time. It’s a decent time to give yourself a density challenge, which most neglect, and it will yield a greater metabolic effect than merely dropping lifts for the day.

[quote]craze9 wrote:
So… everything should NOT be treated with equal importance. More experienced guys than me – Jim Wendler, Mark Rippetoe, CT – all agree on this point very clearly. There’s even a 5/3/1 template with ZERO assistance work, for busy people.
[/quote]

Nice straw man lol. My exact words were “everything should be treated with importance.” This list also includes, rest, diet, mobility work, stretching, etc. The attitude I originally took exception to was saying it’s OK to skip assistance work. That’s just dumb for fat loss (less calories burned yada yada) or strength as primary goal (weak point emphasis yada yada).

[quote]craze9 wrote:
Yeah, you probably addressed structural weak points that spurred new progress. Were you a beginner lifter when this happened?
[/quote]

Somewhere around 1 1/2 years.

[quote]craze9 wrote:
Is a beginner lifter better served by addressing structural weak points in the rear delts, rhomboids, and traps when he is capable of rapid progression on the big lifts just by adding weight to the bar?
[/quote]

Absofuckinlutely! Focus on just adding weight to the bar is a very easy path to injury. Just realize you are essentially telling OP he should have an all together different goal of just bigger numbers, when he was made it clear his number one focus is aesthetic and losing fat.

[quote]craze9 wrote:
Will these imbalances accumulate in a 3-month training cycle?
[/quote]

Hell yes. Seen it, and experienced it. I was very lucky in that I was assessed by a college peer pursuing PT before I ever got serious into weightlifting. I didn’t perform any BB pressing for the first year of training and only did db’s and accessory work to address my upper extremity issues (kyphosis and bad internal rotation). I saved myself alot of potential issues following a one-size-fits-all BB only template.

[quote]craze9 wrote:
Will these imbalances accumulate in a program with equal pulling and pressing volume like Madcow (actually more pulling volume if you do chins on Wednesday)?
[/quote]

Yes. It’s not what you do but way that you do it…

[quote]craze9 wrote:
So do you contend that programs focused on the big movements including Starting Strength, 5/3/1, CT’s 915, etc, which do not include specified rear delt isolation work, are not “well-rounded” programs?
[/quote]

Yes.

The whole notion of building a workout around a “big” lift and everything else being assistance is just one way of training. I just don’t believe you are capable of seeing any merit in anything else, and for that reason I can’t continue this discussion. And I can tell by the questions you ask rhetorically, that you can only see the one way. There’s more to training than bigger numbers on the big 3, even for beginners.

[quote]craze9 wrote:
Also, for the record, the question was never whether the OP can add 100 reps of band pull-aparts per workout to Madcow. He wanted to add significant pressing volume. [/quote]

That’s fine. My question was why the hell anyone would tell him it’s ok to skip assistance work.