All in All, im mostly concerned with my physique. I mean, yes, getting stronger is cool but im not looking to powerlift. I will do madcow tho, ill see how that works. Ill shorten my rests, throw in isolation work for certain parts and go from there. If that doesnt work, i know where im coming back for more advice. I appreciate all the information and help im getting. I learned lots just from this thread
[quote]ESPguitarist1990 wrote:
All in All, im mostly concerned with my physique. I mean, yes, getting stronger is cool but im not looking to powerlift. I will do madcow tho, ill see how that works. Ill shorten my rests, throw in isolation work for certain parts and go from there. If that doesnt work, i know where im coming back for more advice. I appreciate all the information and help im getting. I learned lots just from this thread[/quote]
I’m not going to try and confuse you further. But honestly if you’re going to do all those adjustments, mine as well get on another program.
craze9: please read the top 3 bullet points of today’s recent article: Growth Factor Shoulder Training
I lol’ed because you literally referenced CT as a way to advance your points.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]ESPguitarist1990 wrote:
All in All, im mostly concerned with my physique. I mean, yes, getting stronger is cool but im not looking to powerlift. I will do madcow tho, ill see how that works. Ill shorten my rests, throw in isolation work for certain parts and go from there. If that doesnt work, i know where im coming back for more advice. I appreciate all the information and help im getting. I learned lots just from this thread[/quote]
I’m not going to try and confuse you further. But honestly if you’re going to do all those adjustments, mine as well get on another program. [/quote]
Concur. I don’t see short rest times working well with Madcow.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
craze9: please read the top 3 bullet points of today’s recent article: Growth Factor Shoulder Training
I lol’ed because you literally referenced CT as a way to advance your points. [/quote]
Dude, I never said isolation work shouldn’t be done, or wasn’t effective for hypertrophy. I never said anything of the sort. Obviously “bodybuilding” training – high volume, wide rep ranges, shorter rests – works for building muscle.
I referenced CT because 1) he has said multiple times recently – and apparently has an article soon coming out on the topic – that training for “fat loss” should not include using higher reps and shorter rests, but should instead focus on heavy lifting. 2) He has said a million times his belief in the importance of the big lifts and training them for strength and performance, even if muscle gain is the ultimate goal. 3) He rarely includes detailed isolation work specifics in his programs, and his programs are often based on progress in the big lifts.
Are you even familiar with his work or did you just see today’s article?
What program then? im already confused as hellen keller
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]ESPguitarist1990 wrote:
All in All, im mostly concerned with my physique. I mean, yes, getting stronger is cool but im not looking to powerlift. I will do madcow tho, ill see how that works. Ill shorten my rests, throw in isolation work for certain parts and go from there. If that doesnt work, i know where im coming back for more advice. I appreciate all the information and help im getting. I learned lots just from this thread[/quote]
I’m not going to try and confuse you further. But honestly if you’re going to do all those adjustments, mine as well get on another program. [/quote]
Concur. I don’t see short rest times working well with Madcow.
[/quote]
OP: at your point, just ignore all the talk above, follow this link and do this program for a couple of months. Report back with any needs at that point. This discussion is just going to confuse you further as it delves into weeds that you don’t really need to concern yourself with at this point. Just start lifting/exercising/whatever.
[quote]ESPguitarist1990 wrote:
What program then? im already confused as hellen keller
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]ESPguitarist1990 wrote:
All in All, im mostly concerned with my physique. I mean, yes, getting stronger is cool but im not looking to powerlift. I will do madcow tho, ill see how that works. Ill shorten my rests, throw in isolation work for certain parts and go from there. If that doesnt work, i know where im coming back for more advice. I appreciate all the information and help im getting. I learned lots just from this thread[/quote]
I’m not going to try and confuse you further. But honestly if you’re going to do all those adjustments, mine as well get on another program. [/quote]
Concur. I don’t see short rest times working well with Madcow.
[/quote]
[/quote]
I really don’t believe it matters as much as you believe it does. If you stick with it, believe in it and attack it with brutal intensity, you will see results. If you hem and haw and search for something optimal, you won’t.
Pick A program.
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Just start lifting/exercising/whatever.[/quote]
Also this.
Things make a lot more sense when you’ve been lifting for a while and succeeding.
[quote]craze9 wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
craze9: please read the top 3 bullet points of today’s recent article: Growth Factor Shoulder Training
I lol’ed because you literally referenced CT as a way to advance your points. [/quote]
Dude, I never said isolation work shouldn’t be done, or wasn’t effective for hypertrophy. I never said anything of the sort. Obviously “bodybuilding” training – high volume, wide rep ranges, shorter rests – works for building muscle.
I referenced CT because 1) he has said multiple times recently – and apparently has an article soon coming out on the topic – that training for “fat loss” should not include using higher reps and shorter rests, but should instead focus on heavy lifting. 2) He has said a million times his belief in the importance of the big lifts and training them for strength and performance, even if muscle gain is the ultimate goal. 3) He rarely includes detailed isolation work specifics in his programs, and his programs are often based on progress in the big lifts.
Are you even familiar with his work or did you just see today’s article?
https://www.T-Nation.com/workouts/915-workout-program[/quote]
I’m glad we agree.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I’m not good with multi-quotes so I’m going this route lol
1)OP’s goal is to look good and lose some fat (correct me if I’m wrong OP). He didn’t say build general strength in a caloric deficit or to bring up a lagging body part. Idk why you mentioned those options. I’m saying Iso work is important if you want to maximize your aesthetic potential.
[/quote]
The point was to illustrate two goals with divergent need for isolation work.
I agree that iso work is important if you want to maximize your aesthetic potential. I never disagreed with that.
What I’m saying is that adding additional iso work to Madcow is not necessary and can be counterproductive, especially for inexperienced lifters. And that a program with more iso work than Madcow is not necessarily better for the OP right now.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
3)I’m not sure how much energy you waste thinking about rear delt and bicep development. I train both those body parts frequently, and never has it bogged me down mentally, nor have I found the addition of those lifts hurting my recovery. They actually helped not only with looking better,but improved shoulder and elbow health. The fact you didn’t do a lateral raise for 7 years is cool. I doubt random people would know about, let alone comment on your lateral head development, but if you’re trying to say it didn’t lag for you, cool. Any pics? I’m not trying to call you out, just lateral delts are notoriously stubborn to develop, and really tie a physique together, so if OP is trying to maximize aesthetics, maybe doing a few sets here and there wouldn’t hurt. You once again talk about focusing your energy on ‘big’ movements, but once again I find a little iso work takes little to not time and doesn’t hurt performance on the main lifts.
[/quote]
If his goal is fat loss he isn’t going to be building significant muscle in this training cycle at all, much less in his medial delts, which you observe are difficult to develop in general.
To be clear, you’re suggesting that all lifters should include lateral raises at all times in any lifting program / training cycle?
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
4)You’ve read BBB right? The entire program is about adding weight to the bar. Just because it is getting stronger with higher reps doesn’t mean it’s not strength. Idk why 8 reps is too high of a number to get stronger on.
[/quote]
It has been observed quite clearly that the 1-6 rep range is more effective at building strength than the 8-15 range. So I don’t see why would you think a program focusing on the latter would be better at building strength than a program focusing on the former.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
And if those aren’t what you’d recommend to yourself back then, cool. But those programs are more in-line with OP’s goals.
[/quote]
I don’t see how this is so. I would think a bodybuilding program like BBB would make most sense when one is trying to build muscle. The OP is trying, for now, to lose fat. The goal of a training program should be to maintain muscle, and you don’t necessarily need a huge amount of volume for that, especially for a beginner.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
WS4SB may work better for him strength wise, as could BBB. I just know both of those don’t lack the volume and iso work Madcow does, so they will, if even done have right, leave OP with a slightly better physique.
[/quote]
I don’t think this is true. Muscle gain is not linear or easily quantified. It also varies based on individual genetics, and a lot of other variables besides “volume” and “isolation work”. So the idea that BBB = more isolation work and volume than Madcow, therefore will “develop a better physique” for every lifter, regardless of training experience, is an oversimplification at best, an erroneous assumption at worst.
Plus, once again, we are talking about a training cycle in which the goal is fat loss. How will BBB “develop a better physique” than Madcow, under these circumstances? Is it going to build more muscle (in a caloric deficit)? I’ve already explained why I think Madcow will develop greater strength.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I think you want OP to just focus on his general strength in the 5ish rep range. He said he wants to lose some fat and look better. So I’m just providing info on what appears to be his goal. I could be wrong, just wasting my time. Craze9 you maybe be bigger, leaner, and stronger than me and can just prove that I’m wrong on this, that’s cool. Maybe you have an impressive physique from Madcow. If so, you’re not leading OP astray, and he should probably listen to you. lol
[/quote]
If I were bigger, leaner and stronger than you, that wouldn’t “prove you wrong” at all. (I’m probably not leaner, at least, as I’m at the tail end of a “bulk”). And if I have an impressive physique, it’s not “from Madcow.” I’ve been lifting for over 10 years, and have done many different programs. I’m not saying Madcow is the best of all of them (there is no “best”). I’m saying it’s a good program that I am happy recommend to beginner/intermediate lifters because it is effective at quickly building strength in a simple, progressive fashion.
Building a physique takes time, and a variety in approach. What I disagree with is the idea that the OP shouldn’t do Madcow because it doesn’t have enough isolation work. Or that it’s too low volume. Because… what is “enough” or “too much”? Just a guess.
A lot of very expert people would agree with the idea that building strength is important to hypertrophy in the long run. In a caloric deficit, one is not likely to build muscle, but one can still build strength, especially if one is relatively untrained in the big lifts. That is why I recommended it for the OP – it’s enough volume/work to support muscle maintenance while he loses fat, while also building strength that can contribute to hypertrophy in future training cycles.
I really don’t think anything I’ve said is particularly controversial.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Short answer, you don’t let that happen. You dont watch your favorite show on netflix that night or make some other sacrifice; however, I know some guys on here are fathers, on-call doctors, etc. so…
If fat loss is primary goal, you reduce rest times and get the prescribed volume done in a shorter amount of time. It’s a decent time to give yourself a density challenge, which most neglect, and it will yield a greater metabolic effect than merely dropping lifts for the day.
[/quote]
It was a hypothetical example designed to force prioritization between a compound and an isolation movement. Here you have avoided the choice. (I.e., I asked about choosing between A and B and you chose C.)
I don’t disagree with your point about density work or effort in the gym, but that’s a separate issue.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]craze9 wrote:
So… everything should NOT be treated with equal importance. More experienced guys than me – Jim Wendler, Mark Rippetoe, CT – all agree on this point very clearly. There’s even a 5/3/1 template with ZERO assistance work, for busy people.
[/quote]
Nice straw man lol. My exact words were “everything should be treated with importance.” This list also includes, rest, diet, mobility work, stretching, etc. The attitude I originally took exception to was saying it’s OK to skip assistance work. That’s just dumb for fat loss (less calories burned yada yada) or strength as primary goal (weak point emphasis yada yada).
[/quote]
Straw man because I concluded “everything should be treated with importance” implied “everything should be treated with EQUAL importance”?
If the importance is NOT equal, then you are not disagreeing with my previous point (which was that isolation assistance exercises are less important than primary compound movements). Instead you’re saying something along the lines of “all factors matter to some degree,” which is a separate point and one that I consider rather obvious.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]craze9 wrote:
Is a beginner lifter better served by addressing structural weak points in the rear delts, rhomboids, and traps when he is capable of rapid progression on the big lifts just by adding weight to the bar?
[/quote]
Absofuckinlutely! Focus on just adding weight to the bar is a very easy path to injury. Just realize you are essentially telling OP he should have an all together different goal of just bigger numbers, when he was made it clear his number one focus is aesthetic and losing fat.
[/quote]
I’m telling the OP to focus on strength while he is losing fat, because it will maintain muscle and play a role in hypertrophy later. I don’t think that advice is opposed to aesthetic goals.
As far as the injury comment, I find it silly. Adding weight to the bar, provided form remains good, is the simplest path to getting stronger, and has been employed by athletes and lifters of all kinds since the barbell was invented. I have done many strength programs based on this principle and have never had a serious injury. Certainly, the injury rate is much higher in virtually any other mainstream sport.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]craze9 wrote:
Will these imbalances accumulate in a 3-month training cycle?
[/quote]
Hell yes. Seen it, and experienced it. I was very lucky in that I was assessed by a college peer pursuing PT before I ever got serious into weightlifting. I didn’t perform any BB pressing for the first year of training and only did db’s and accessory work to address my upper extremity issues (kyphosis and bad internal rotation). I saved myself alot of potential issues following a one-size-fits-all BB only template.
[/quote]
Experts on barbell training will disagree with you. I don’t consider myself an expert, but again, our experiences differ.
To be clear, though, you have or have not ever done a strength-focused barbell-based program for 2-3 months?
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]craze9 wrote:
So do you contend that programs focused on the big movements including Starting Strength, 5/3/1, CT’s 915, etc, which do not include specified rear delt isolation work, are not “well-rounded” programs?
[/quote]
Yes.
The whole notion of building a workout around a “big” lift and everything else being assistance is just one way of training.
[/quote]
Of course it is one way of training. Did I say it was the only way? You are the one saying it is not a GOOD way. That it is not “well-rounded”, that it will lead to muscular imbalances and injuries, and will not contribute to aesthetic development.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I just don’t believe you are capable of seeing any merit in anything else, and for that reason I can’t continue this discussion. And I can tell by the questions you ask rhetorically, that you can only see the one way. There’s more to training than bigger numbers on the big 3, even for beginners.
[/quote]
Lol. You’d think I’d have learned my lesson about arguing on the internet by now. People are just incapable of responding only to the words you write, and seem to love extrapolating all other kinds of arguments and beliefs from simple statements.
Where did I say no other approach to training has merit? Where did I say that only the Big 3 matter?
Jesus Christ this is silly stuff, guys… all I did was recommend Madcow to a “newbie” lifter, and now I believe no other program or training approach has merit? I said above that I consider BBB a good program and one I’d like to do in the future. I have, as a matter of fact, been doing “bodybuilding” focused splits, with a LOT of isolation work, exclusively for the past 3+ months. (Does that give me some cred, bro? Some bodybuilding hypertrophy iso cred? Please, I want some!) That said, when I switch to a strength program in a few weeks and starting cutting, you can bet that I will place less of a priority on fucking lateral raises. Lol.
Yeah I’m bowing out. No offense craze, I just think we’ve had different experiences, and if somehow what I wrote gave you the impression that:
“To be clear, you’re suggesting that all lifters should include lateral raises at all times in any lifting program / training cycle?”
We clearly just aren’t communicating well. So let’s just agree to disagree. I already feel bad for confusing OP. lol
Holy Shit.
I am a relative beginner and pretty inconsistent in my training but jesus fucking christ pick a program. Do Madcow, do BBB, do 5/3/1, do . Find any of the numerous programs on this site and commit to it for 6 months and get your diet in order and you will grow and shed fat.
Just start lifting, after a while you will figure out what is working for you and you can alter after that.
OP as youve chosen madcow do it exactly as is for a month and only then start to make adjustments