Not sure if this will help but I’ve had the same problem due to a shoulder injury. So what I’ve been doing is front squats using dumbbells.
Carlsbad
hel320, all these problems you have, THAT’S WHAT YOU GET FOR BEING A MUSCLEBOUND FREAK OF NATURE!!! LOL
I’m still laughing that you asked ME about front squats. I pulled a quad muscle doing squat cleans and front squats two weeks ago, then pulled a back muscle yesterday the first time I did front squats again. I SUCK at them. Weak and inflexible, the bar hovers on my fingertips, and my back bends forward when they get hard.
You can get some good looks at proper front squat technique on You Tube. You got to get on the You Tube bandwagon, hel. You can see Zerchers there too (the proper cross armed front squat).
Also, my left shoulder hurts bad when I do back squats, so I dont do them either. Gave up BNP also, long time ago.
You know, this is so WRONG for me to say, but if I wasnt so driven by this miracle comeback thing of mine, I'm not sure I'd squat. I know hacks and leg presses are for sissies, even if you use 900 lbs, but squats are really hard on MY body.
But I also know, from experience, that doing squats has this magical effect of improving strength OVERALL, with clear benefits to deadlifts, cleans, and maybe, somehow, the bench.
The only advice I can give is to do everything you can to improve your shoulder AND wrist flexibility. I do several different stretches every day, and in five months I've made maybe 10% improvement in my range of motion and comfort level in shoulder related exercises. Doc
[quote]hel320 wrote:
Dr PwrCln,
Need advise on front squats. I can’t do normal squats. Can’t get my left arm/shoulder behind the bar. Can’t do behind the neck presses, either. When I C&J my elbows are pointed down rather than up in the OL style. Can’t get my hands down to the bar if I rest it on my front delts.
Have tried front squats using the cross armed hold but I get the bar right in the adam’s apple. I have never actually seen anyone doing front squats. I think the crossed armed hold is my best option but am I holding it wrong?[/quote]
I usually front squat with my arms in the clean position but either way, the bar will rest near or against your throat. If you keep your elbow high you may be able to pull the bar forward onto your delts and away from your adams apple. Tilting your head back may help a little as well.
I concur with working on your flexibility but that may never come. There are other options. Safety squats may be your best bet but it involves buying a fairly expensive bar. Dr. Squat sells them on his site. That site is an excellent source of squat technique information.
http://drsquat.com/home/index.php
Stu
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
stuward wrote:
What kind of competition are you looking to get into? I assume weightlifting. I know there are master’s level powerlifting competitions. Does the same thing exist for weightlifting? I live in Nova Scotia, We don’t even have a provincial organization for weightlifting.
Stu
There is an International Weightlifting Federation for Masters Olympic Lifting. I have competed in many sports in my life, even was a decent amateur golfer. But no sport ever came close to OL comps for me, they were the BEST!
These IWF meets are apparently pretty big deals, with annual championships held in locales all over the world (lsat year was in Cyprus). I believe they also hold them together with the Pan-Am games as well.
Regardless, the big deal for me is the HRT. Even though the 150mg of T I take for my nearly non-functional gonads is not in my mind "doping," I don't know if I would pass their drug test-probably not. If I can continue my progress and my clean and jerk gets over 140kg (which would be an American and Pan Am world record), I might try just stopping it, taking every natural T booster I could find and see if my strength would hold up. This is all so weird just talking about this, just half a year ago all I wanted was to feel good again! Doc
[/quote]
I found the web-site: http://www.iwfmasters.net/
It’s interesting how competitive the 50-60 age group is vs the younger guys. If those weights were in lbs instead of Kgs I might be competitive but I guess I’ll have to live vicariously through you. I have faith that you’ll be there soon. It looks like next year the worlds is in Greece.
Stu
[quote]stuward wrote:
Dr.PowerClean wrote:
stuward wrote:
This is all so weird just talking about this, just half a year ago all I wanted was to feel good again! Doc
I found the web-site: http://www.iwfmasters.net/
It’s interesting how competitive the 50-60 age group is vs the younger guys. If those weights were in lbs instead of Kgs I might be competitive but I guess I’ll have to live vicariously through you. I have faith that you’ll be there soon. It looks like next year the worlds is in Greece.
Stu[/quote]
Yeah, you found it Stu. You know how you can take sites and put an icon with them and place them on the top row of your browser? Well, I have six icons up there. ESPN, Yahoo, You Tube, Wikipedia, T-Nation, and IWF. It was finding that IWF site that turned my comeback from a “get in great shape for a 50+ guy” into a “do something really special and different” comeback. I’m loving the ride, even though its a bumpy one. That little back muscle is healing quicker than my quad did, I’ll try some empty bar work today… Doc
Had a genuine existential crisis today. In the midst of serious financial bad news, marital discord, and a few other personal problems thrown in, I also get faced with a suggestion on Koing’s thread which seemed inconceivable.
"Give up power cleans for three months."
It was good advice actually, deriving from the fact that if I continue to return to my old reliance on muscling up power cleans I may never train my body to groove a proper squat clean.
Oh, but how I have loved power cleans, and how they have in part defined who I am. One of my nicknames in college was "Mr. Power Clean." Not only was it my best lift by far, it was the most fun for me.
But I gave it up today, for now. I made the pledge, in the interest of truly pursuing this OL dream. I was so stirred up by this and the other above events (I'll keep those details private) that I had to do something exercise-wise. I treated my back with hot/cold packs for an hour, then did all sorts of new stretches, then did an hour's worth of bar exercises, including ten sets of overhead squats, squat cleans, jerks, and BNP from the squat snatch position.
This last little gem of an exercise I have to date never been able to do, until today. I eked out five sets of 3 reps with the bar, each rep a brutal, painful movement just lowering the bar to the back of my neck and back up while sitting in a deep squat position. Grip collar to collar. I think this exercise could be used to find out who are the true athletes in our age group, because I think that 99% of lifters over 50 probably cannot do this exercise, or cannot do it without pain.
Although it was painful, for me it was not a "damaging" pain, just a "my body in no way wants to do this" pain. Try it, all of you who read this. I want to hear how you do. I think it is a useless thing unless you are going to do OL, other than to show you how musclebound or joint-bound you are.
Oh well, welcome once again to my crazy little world. Doc
Grandmother’s wisdom that has saved my life and sanity more than once: “No matter how dark today may be, tomorrow might just be the best day you ever had.”
No way on the behind the neck presses. I’m scared like a little girl. The last time I did a set of behind the neck lat pulls I spent three weeks in the rotator cuff house of pain.
Grasshopper, listen to your body. Doc, if you had a patient that kept coming in saying everytime I do this I get this pain… Please don’t tell me you’d give him a script and an appoimtment. The last time I attempted OH squats it felt like ice picks in my shoulders and I don’t,won’t do them again. All the best, Barry.
Guys, some things have become abundantly clear since I first started this thread with the serious question of my sanity.
- It is entirely sane to mount a zealous, passioned comeback in the world of weight training, despite having been told of it’s impossibility due to my injuries, as long as one is smart in the choice of excercises, working with and around injuries, and giving oneself adequate rest and supportive nutrition.
- HRT can be a wonderful modality, in those who truly need it, but it is not a perfect science and is not to be taken lightly. I wish I didnt need it and hope to find a way to not need it. But to this end I am doubtful, and having gotten myself out of the pits of brain fog, depression and impending total metabolic collapse was one of the most sane things I have done.
- It is sane to think and act younger than your years, and to eliminate negative limiting beliefs about being older, as long as the risks taken are not stupid or dangerous.
- My comeback’s gradual morphing into an OL comeback is the one part of all this that probably IS insane. I am continuing to rationalize the toll it is taking on my body because the passion I have rediscovered in this quest is CONSUMING me. That alone should tell me Red Alert. But I am not ready to give it up, in fact that thought has not even entered my mind. I will probably keep going with this comeback until I either seriously injure myself or hit a physical plateau so far below my expectations in the sport that it becomes obvious I am wasting my time.
This is my State of the Union address, I guess, and I welcome feedback. Doc
Doc,
Reading your thread has helped me to accept my need for appropriate HRT. I wish I didn’t need it easier.
It would be more insane to have one’s head in the sand and pretend that “andropause” or “idiopathic secondary hypogonadism” didn’t exist or shouldn’t be address. If I ignored it, I’d have other hormonal issues “Downstream” that would be medicated (metabolic, depression), without ever address the root cause. It is more sane to acknowledge a challenge and deal with it, as you are.
That said, as far as wishing one didn’t need HRT, do you have an opinion about the study showing Arimidex (only) therapy increasing T in hypogonadal men? Let me know if you need the link.
BD
“It is sane to think and act younger than your years, and to eliminate negative limiting beliefs about being older, as long as the risks taken are not stupid or dangerous”
is that a professional opinion?
Lack of Passion is what make people old. Doc I wish you the best of luck and I envy you for finding something that gets you excited. Have some patience. Do what you need to do to prepare and then go for it.
[quote]captfoolhardy wrote:
“It is sane to think and act younger than your years, and to eliminate negative limiting beliefs about being older, as long as the risks taken are not stupid or dangerous”
is that a professional opinion?[/quote]
That stuff just comes right off the top of my head. But since I’m a doctor, we get to call it a “professional opinion.” It sounded pretty good though, didn’t it? Doc
- Doc, I think of it this way. If you don’t take the shot you’ll never stop wandering what if. This crap about thinking we’re younger than we really are is BS. No other generation had the life expectancy, medical care, nutrition, etc. we do. So who’s to say what we should be doing at this age. If I’m doing it and capable of doing it, it’s right for my age.
How will we know what “our age” is capable of if we never push the limits. I hear it constantly form co-workers. “Man, you shouldn’t be doin’ that. You’re to old. You’re gonna hurt somethin. Why you still try to get bigger?” I don’t even try explaining because put simply you either get it or you never will. To sum up this rant, balls to the wall, doc. Quit tryin when they shut the lid.
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
hel320, all these problems you have, THAT’S WHAT YOU GET FOR BEING A MUSCLEBOUND FREAK OF NATURE!!!
[/quote]
2. Because of this line I have had an awakening! Last night, I signed up for pilate classes, tried to touch my toes, ok knees, while standing on a rubber ball, used the inner thigh machine, and did wrist curls in the squat rack. Did all this while wearing my kilt, too! This morning I had a double mocca latte and ordered quiche.
- Ok, Time to sound stupid(er). I know it’s all over this web site but just what is HRT and why is everyone taking it?
Yes Doc it sounds great.
As way of introduction, I am part of the “tail end of the Baby boom” also.
Your one of the post I check on daily, lurker at large.
Seeing how you are laying it on the line with your thoughts I will give you my motto:
“You can’t stop the fact you are getting older, but you can redefine what old age is”
Let�??s set the bar high
Hi Doc
I am going tell you a story that you may relate to.
Some years ago (about 3 ) one of my weightlifting friends had back pain, he always felt pain after training, so he told the coach my back hurts and the coach said you have nothing or you wouldnt be lifting that weigh, (he had snatch 135 and 165 kg in the 105 division) so he kept training and he kept telling us and the coach my back hurts, he would go to therapy and also we would put on his back liquid paraffin and we would tell him to take it like a man (it took us some tome to notice that it was hot), he went to the doctors and the doctors said if you can train you have nothing, but as time passed he kept insisting that he had pain in his back.
So to keep the story short he had a herniated disc (the Dr. ordered a MRI) it looked black and he got the disc removed, before the operation some people were telling him not to operate since it was a big risk that he might not be able to walk again and to forget about weightlifting, my friend was very positive and he said that he would lift weights. He had surgery and by a specialist a top neurosurgeon … a crazy Dr. (the Dr. went to compete into a motocross race 2 days before the operation), the Dr. told him he would be able to lift weights again, so Dr. put in his back a prothesis and something called gualis 2 of them, kind of like springs.
After 2 weeks my friend was walking and I think that after 3 months he did 125 and 165 kg, he doesn’t lift anymore because of personal problems with the coach and now he works for money.
But the moral of the story is he had the Will and the Desire to keep doing what he loved training and competing at the time, (he did had to start from zero again) .
So I hope that with patience you can keep doing what you like and with some persistence and desire you reach your goals.
I wish you health
Jorge
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
Guys, some things have become abundantly clear since I first started this thread with the serious question of my sanity.
- It is entirely sane to mount a zealous, passioned comeback in the world of weight training, despite having been told of it’s impossibility due to my injuries, as long as one is smart in the choice of excercises, working with and around injuries, and giving oneself adequate rest and supportive nutrition.
- HRT can be a wonderful modality, in those who truly need it, but it is not a perfect science and is not to be taken lightly. I wish I didnt need it and hope to find a way to not need it. But to this end I am doubtful, and having gotten myself out of the pits of brain fog, depression and impending total metabolic collapse was one of the most sane things I have done.
- It is sane to think and act younger than your years, and to eliminate negative limiting beliefs about being older, as long as the risks taken are not stupid or dangerous.
- My comeback’s gradual morphing into an OL comeback is the one part of all this that probably IS insane. I am continuing to rationalize the toll it is taking on my body because the passion I have rediscovered in this quest is CONSUMING me. That alone should tell me Red Alert. But I am not ready to give it up, in fact that thought has not even entered my mind. I will probably keep going with this comeback until I either seriously injure myself or hit a physical plateau so far below my expectations in the sport that it becomes obvious I am wasting my time.
This is my State of the Union address, I guess, and I welcome feedback. Doc[/quote]
Thank you everybody for the comments. Normally I like to respond to each, but I’ll miss somebody tonight. Every response I get on this thread is like a gift, I eagerly open it up, and either like it or not, but always am glad for the thoughts.
I do gotta say, Hel320, if my "Musclebound Freak" comments turned you into a latte-drinking Swiss Ball devotee, I am eternally sorry. You may need HRT now, which is basically testosterone replacement therapy for those deficient in this hormone. Of course, how you can still bench over 4 at our age will still remain a medical mystery causing me sleepless nights with jealousy.
I thought of you when I did my triple with 285 today, because it reminded me to not allow my ego to inflate one iota. I never was and will never be a great bench presser, but it would be fun to do reps with 315 again, something you can do in your kilt!
I did do power jerks Behind the Neck today, the first time doing these again since the Ice Age. My shoulder flexibility is IMPROVING! It can be done. I took it easy, doing about 8 sets and slowly working up to two sets of 3x185. Want to know the hardest part? Lowering the bar back onto my traps after each rep. It just felt so awkward and seemed to give my spine a little jolt. I started feeling like my spine was being compressed, and I quit before going heavier.
I then did five sets of lat pulldowns, really stretching well at the top, and it seemed to give a traction-like effect reversing the “compressed spine” discomfort I had. I left the gym with no discomfort, and my pulled back muscle is 90% recovered, much more quickly than I anticipated.
For tonight, I think I'll give my existential problems a rest and watch some brainless TV or play Halo 3 with my son.
Doc
Today’s day in the life. I think I’ll go by Dr. PC only, since I have renounced power cleans in the name of better OL technique. Dr. PC could stand for Dr. Paranoid Compulsive, or Dr. Preacher Curls (I used to love them), or Dr. Probably Crazy. That last one sounds very good for some reason.
So I went to my HRT doctor and had a good cry over my life problems, and she decided I definitely needed an Estradiol test (finally!). My trip to the US, where I could get Adex, has been delayed three times and I am pretty sure the crap I've been taking to control high Estrogen hasn't been working. You think I'm joking about the crying-well, I did choke up. I'm not much of a cryer, my Dad made me watch 1000 John Wayne movies and I was well-schooled in the "crying is for babies and cowards" thing. Odd, for a shrink. But I've got some serious problems, I'm officially broke and this is not a good thing for a 51 year old guy (well, happy friggin birthday next week).
Anyway, I took my miseries to the gym, which has always been the best possible thing to do with miseries. I was feeling physically better, not drained from yesterday's workout at all and ready to plunge into front squats. I did eight sets, going up to 2x285 and managing to not pull a muscle in the process! Hooray! But I started cramping up and had to go stretch for ten minutes just to continue working out. Did seven or eight sets of leg press calf raises, going up to 8x7plates a side (630) which for me is a heroic accomplishment, given the fact I have only half-functional calves. This truly made my day!
I finished off doing some ab and cardio work and left the gym happy.
BTW, I told my doc about my Master's Olympic dreams for the first time. She didn't get it. She noticed my muscles were bigger and wondered if the 175mg a week of T was too much. Fuck! My T level is only 755, mid normal. This is what I get for busting my ass for five months, lifting like a twenty year old despite feeling like a 70 year old every morning. Oh well, doctors, you know. But I told her something, as a result of her lack of comprehension, which may have been a very profound statement.
I told her, “you know, Doc, I should know within six months if this dream of competiting at a high level in Master’s OL is possible or not. I’ll either lift the numbers I need to, or my body will plateau far short, get injured or shut down.” For some reason, she understood this part, and I think it pretty much sums up the way I feel about all this.
Six months, no matter what. Take my shot, and have no regrets no matter what. That's my pledge to OL, made public now I guess. Doc
Jorge Gonzalez,
I wanted to personally thank you for that story of the OL who overcame the herniated disc with subsequent surgery to post numbers of 125/165 afterwards. As you probably read earlier in my thread, I had that same problem and operation, among others. But what gave me chills were the numbers your friend posted. Those are my goal numbers, numbers that could win me a Master’s OL title.
Like your friend, I did more than that in the past, my only problem is that it was thirty years ago. Sometimes when I say that…and I’ve probably said it too often,…I really think I’m fooling myself. But if the passion is there, sometimes, miraculously, the body follows. Thank you again for this story. Doc
Watching John Wayne movies is a great way to spend time, I have an extensive collection myself and over my 43 years, I’ve found much to be admired and inspired by from the Duke.
One of the many things said about him in his biography’s was along the lines of…
… He wasn’t perfect and made a lot of mistakes and bad decisions along the way, but you know what, it never stopped him from trying to be a better man, every day…
I like that. No matter how many mistakes I make, I have to keep trying to be a better man every day, and be smart enough to know that when I fail, tomorrow will come around & it’ll be hoping I’ve learned something from today.
What makes you say you’re “officially” broke Doc?