Am I a Bitch?

Off Topic
301

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
although I do not disagree with the comments above, I would like each of you to describe to me what you are referring to as ‘selfishness’…[/quote]
I am believer that we cannot be anything other than selfish.

Derek might think that he is being unselfish by dining with his wife rather than going out with friends. But ultimately it serves him to please his wife and dine with her rather than reap the potential repurcussions that might result if he doesn’t.

Some people appear extremely “unselfish” because of their prodigious acts of philanthropy. But I would argue that it pleases them to be that way.

So I don’t buy the “selfish” argument. We all do what we ultimately want to do.[/quote]

Explain to me how doing what we ultimately want means that it is selfishness?

Just because someone likes being humble doesn’t mean they are prideful, and just because one likes to be chaste, doesn’t mean they are in fact a whore. And, just because one likes to be meek doesn’t mean they are unjustly angry. Your argument is fallacious.

From the time of antiquity men have concluded that for a man to be perfect in virtue they are to act virtuously joyfully and quickly, with no second thought of vice.

Read some Aristotle. Or Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what I am saying.

But that’s most likely because debate is not my forte.

I stand by my opinion even if I cannot articulate it well. Which is to say that we all ultimately do what we want and what serves us best. But I do not believe that we can be otherwise. [/quote]

I understand what you’re saying, and agree, while at the same time sort of not.

I don’t like people to tell me my work is giving, or whatever. I fucking LOVE my job. Along with it consisting of sitting on my ass in a very cheery and comfortable setting, it’s a great deal of fun much of the time. While I get that talking to suicidal people would be depressing to some people (and it is to me sometimes) making them laugh and feel hopeful is such a high for me, it would be gross of me somehow to pretend I’m being noble. Plus I get paid for doing it. I know I help people, and some of the people I work with are truly distasteful to me, so it’s not a selfish job either. Just not some huge sacrifice.

Being unselfish in a relationship brings about a very satisfying greater good, assuming two caring partners rather than one chronic taker and one perennial giver. So it’s rewarding and therefore self-serving. Still, I woke at 5-something this morning to go to a 7 am estate sale after being up half the night with a crisis pager and suicidal man situation. It’s unselfish of me not to blow the sale off - old junk is not my thing in the first place. I’m doing it because later we’ll go for a long bike ride - me on my very cool new bike, a joy to ride, and him on the so-so old bike he rides primarily for my sake.

I suspect we will have a very happy dinner and bedtime at the end of it all, each of us having done something we liked, each of us having done something pretty pleasant but primarily for the other’s sake, both of us having done stuff we mutually enjoy. So I see your big picture self-serving, and agree. At the end of the day, it’s pretty nice to be nice to nice people and have them be nice back. Profit! But you can’t have that sort of profit if you’re selfish.

302

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
The truth is Jenn, no, you’re not a bitch. You are needy, however, but you don’t know what you need.[/quote]

Great positioning of post. LOL!!

303

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
although I do not disagree with the comments above, I would like each of you to describe to me what you are referring to as ‘selfishness’…[/quote]
I am believer that we cannot be anything other than selfish.

Derek might think that he is being unselfish by dining with his wife rather than going out with friends. But ultimately it serves him to please his wife and dine with her rather than reap the potential repurcussions that might result if he doesn’t.

Some people appear extremely “unselfish” because of their prodigious acts of philanthropy. But I would argue that it pleases them to be that way.

So I don’t buy the “selfish” argument. We all do what we ultimately want to do.[/quote]

Explain to me how doing what we ultimately want means that it is selfishness?

Just because someone likes being humble doesn’t mean they are prideful, and just because one likes to be chaste, doesn’t mean they are in fact a whore. And, just because one likes to be meek doesn’t mean they are unjustly angry. Your argument is fallacious.

From the time of antiquity men have concluded that for a man to be perfect in virtue they are to act virtuously joyfully and quickly, with no second thought of vice.

Read some Aristotle. Or Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what I am saying.

But that’s most likely because debate is not my forte.

I stand by my opinion even if I cannot articulate it well. Which is to say that we all ultimately do what we want and what serves us best. But I do not believe that we can be otherwise. [/quote]

No, your opinion was articulated well, and it certainly had nothing to do with the secret whoreishness of the chaste. I don’t know where that came from, but there was no ambiguity in your original words.

The millionaire playboy chases women because he is selfish. But why does the monk live in celibate asceticism? Because he believes God exists and wants him to live such a life. And why do what God wants? It reduces, in the end, to some fundamental command issued by and for the self.

This isn’t to say that one form of selfishness isn’t nobler than any other. And it isn’t really a criticism, either: How could it be any other way, given that our experience of the world is necessarily and utterly selfish (right now, I’m typing my thoughts with my fingers in response to something I saw with my eyes and evaluated in my brain. All because I want to.)

304

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
although I do not disagree with the comments above, I would like each of you to describe to me what you are referring to as ‘selfishness’…[/quote]
I am believer that we cannot be anything other than selfish.

Derek might think that he is being unselfish by dining with his wife rather than going out with friends. But ultimately it serves him to please his wife and dine with her rather than reap the potential repurcussions that might result if he doesn’t.

Some people appear extremely “unselfish” because of their prodigious acts of philanthropy. But I would argue that it pleases them to be that way.

So I don’t buy the “selfish” argument. We all do what we ultimately want to do.[/quote]

Explain to me how doing what we ultimately want means that it is selfishness?

Just because someone likes being humble doesn’t mean they are prideful, and just because one likes to be chaste, doesn’t mean they are in fact a whore. And, just because one likes to be meek doesn’t mean they are unjustly angry. Your argument is fallacious.

From the time of antiquity men have concluded that for a man to be perfect in virtue they are to act virtuously joyfully and quickly, with no second thought of vice.

Read some Aristotle. Or Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what I am saying.

But that’s most likely because debate is not my forte.

I stand by my opinion even if I cannot articulate it well. Which is to say that we all ultimately do what we want and what serves us best. But I do not believe that we can be otherwise. [/quote]

No, your opinion was articulated well, and it certainly had nothing to do with the secret whoreishness of the chaste. I don’t know where that came from, but there was no ambiguity in your original words.

The millionaire playboy chases women because he is selfish. But why does the monk live in celibate asceticism? Because he believes God exists and wants him to live such a life. And why do what God wants? It reduces, in the end, to some fundamental command issued by and for the self.

This isn’t to say that one form of selfishness isn’t nobler than any other. And it isn’t really a criticism, either: How could it be any other way, given that our experience of the world is necessarily and utterly selfish (right now, I’m typing my thoughts with my fingers in response to something I saw with my eyes and evaluated in my brain. All because I want to.)[/quote]
Exactly my thoughts but said much more eloquently.

305

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
although I do not disagree with the comments above, I would like each of you to describe to me what you are referring to as ‘selfishness’…[/quote]
I am believer that we cannot be anything other than selfish.

Derek might think that he is being unselfish by dining with his wife rather than going out with friends. But ultimately it serves him to please his wife and dine with her rather than reap the potential repurcussions that might result if he doesn’t.

Some people appear extremely “unselfish” because of their prodigious acts of philanthropy. But I would argue that it pleases them to be that way.

So I don’t buy the “selfish” argument. We all do what we ultimately want to do.[/quote]

Explain to me how doing what we ultimately want means that it is selfishness?

Just because someone likes being humble doesn’t mean they are prideful, and just because one likes to be chaste, doesn’t mean they are in fact a whore. And, just because one likes to be meek doesn’t mean they are unjustly angry. Your argument is fallacious.

From the time of antiquity men have concluded that for a man to be perfect in virtue they are to act virtuously joyfully and quickly, with no second thought of vice.

Read some Aristotle. Or Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what I am saying.

But that’s most likely because debate is not my forte.

I stand by my opinion even if I cannot articulate it well. Which is to say that we all ultimately do what we want and what serves us best. But I do not believe that we can be otherwise. [/quote]

No, your opinion was articulated well, and it certainly had nothing to do with the secret whoreishness of the chaste. I don’t know where that came from, but there was no ambiguity in your original words.

The millionaire playboy chases women because he is selfish. But why does the monk live in celibate asceticism? Because he believes God exists and wants him to live such a life. And why do what God wants? It reduces, in the end, to some fundamental command issued by and for the self.

This isn’t to say that one form of selfishness isn’t nobler than any other. And it isn’t really a criticism, either: How could it be any other way, given that our experience of the world is necessarily and utterly selfish (right now, I’m typing my thoughts with my fingers in response to something I saw with my eyes and evaluated in my brain. All because I want to.)[/quote]
Exactly my thoughts but said much more eloquently.
[/quote]

I would thank you for the kind words, but you and I both know that you’re just being selfish.

306

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
although I do not disagree with the comments above, I would like each of you to describe to me what you are referring to as ‘selfishness’…[/quote]
I am believer that we cannot be anything other than selfish.

Derek might think that he is being unselfish by dining with his wife rather than going out with friends. But ultimately it serves him to please his wife and dine with her rather than reap the potential repurcussions that might result if he doesn’t.

Some people appear extremely “unselfish” because of their prodigious acts of philanthropy. But I would argue that it pleases them to be that way.

So I don’t buy the “selfish” argument. We all do what we ultimately want to do.[/quote]

Explain to me how doing what we ultimately want means that it is selfishness?

Just because someone likes being humble doesn’t mean they are prideful, and just because one likes to be chaste, doesn’t mean they are in fact a whore. And, just because one likes to be meek doesn’t mean they are unjustly angry. Your argument is fallacious.

From the time of antiquity men have concluded that for a man to be perfect in virtue they are to act virtuously joyfully and quickly, with no second thought of vice.

Read some Aristotle. Or Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what I am saying.

But that’s most likely because debate is not my forte.

I stand by my opinion even if I cannot articulate it well. Which is to say that we all ultimately do what we want and what serves us best. But I do not believe that we can be otherwise. [/quote]

You are saying that we are selfish because we do what serves us best (or, in your example what we “think” is best for us, as being selfish may make one think they are doing what is best for them, but they are not). But, that is not the definition of selfish (the definition for selfish: lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one’s own personal profit or pleasure. So, looking out for others, even it brings us joy is not selfish). What is best for us is doing good and avoiding evil, which is unselfish. Doesn’t matter what our propensity is…

307

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
although I do not disagree with the comments above, I would like each of you to describe to me what you are referring to as ‘selfishness’…[/quote]
I am believer that we cannot be anything other than selfish.

Derek might think that he is being unselfish by dining with his wife rather than going out with friends. But ultimately it serves him to please his wife and dine with her rather than reap the potential repurcussions that might result if he doesn’t.

Some people appear extremely “unselfish” because of their prodigious acts of philanthropy. But I would argue that it pleases them to be that way.

So I don’t buy the “selfish” argument. We all do what we ultimately want to do.[/quote]

No. I often commit unselfish acts even though I frankly don’t want to. My only thought is “why the hell did you have to get involved in this?”

The problem with arguing against those who hold your view is that it’s like arguing against most sophistry. You fall back on the position that I don’t understand my own motivations, and the workings of my own ego and bla bla bla.

308

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
although I do not disagree with the comments above, I would like each of you to describe to me what you are referring to as ‘selfishness’…[/quote]
I am believer that we cannot be anything other than selfish.

Derek might think that he is being unselfish by dining with his wife rather than going out with friends. But ultimately it serves him to please his wife and dine with her rather than reap the potential repurcussions that might result if he doesn’t.

Some people appear extremely “unselfish” because of their prodigious acts of philanthropy. But I would argue that it pleases them to be that way.

So I don’t buy the “selfish” argument. We all do what we ultimately want to do.[/quote]

Explain to me how doing what we ultimately want means that it is selfishness?

Just because someone likes being humble doesn’t mean they are prideful, and just because one likes to be chaste, doesn’t mean they are in fact a whore. And, just because one likes to be meek doesn’t mean they are unjustly angry. Your argument is fallacious.

From the time of antiquity men have concluded that for a man to be perfect in virtue they are to act virtuously joyfully and quickly, with no second thought of vice.

Read some Aristotle. Or Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what I am saying.

But that’s most likely because debate is not my forte.

I stand by my opinion even if I cannot articulate it well. Which is to say that we all ultimately do what we want and what serves us best. But I do not believe that we can be otherwise. [/quote]

No, your opinion was articulated well, and it certainly had nothing to do with the secret whoreishness of the chaste. I don’t know where that came from, but there was no ambiguity in your original words.

The millionaire playboy chases women because he is selfish. But why does the monk live in celibate asceticism? Because he believes God exists and wants him to live such a life. And why do what God wants? It reduces, in the end, to some fundamental command issued by and for the self.

This isn’t to say that one form of selfishness isn’t nobler than any other. And it isn’t really a criticism, either: How could it be any other way, given that our experience of the world is necessarily and utterly selfish (right now, I’m typing my thoughts with my fingers in response to something I saw with my eyes and evaluated in my brain. All because I want to.)[/quote]

This is partly a matter of semantics, and partly a matter of philosophy/world-view. Leaving aside the possible philosophical difference, I believe the usual term for the broader sense of “selfishness” is “enlightened self-interest”.

I believe the post that first introduced the term “selfishness” into this thread intended “selfishness” in the narrower sense (which semantically, is probably the more correct meaning of the term, anyway). And in my non-expert opinion it would seem logical that “selfishness” in the narrower sense would be a major problem for any kind of relationship.

309

[quote]undoredo wrote:
This is partly a matter of semantics, and partly a matter of philosophy/world-view. Leaving aside the possible philosophical difference, I believe the usual term for the broader sense of “selfishness” is “enlightened self-interest”.

I believe the post that first introduced the term “selfishness” into this thread intended “selfishness” in the narrower sense (which semantically, is probably the more correct meaning of the term, anyway). And in my non-expert opinion it would seem logical that “selfishness” in the narrower sense would be a major problem for any kind of relationship.
[/quote]

And in my non-expert opinion, it would also seem logical that “selfishness” in the broader sense is essential for any successful relationship.

310

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
although I do not disagree with the comments above, I would like each of you to describe to me what you are referring to as ‘selfishness’…[/quote]
I am believer that we cannot be anything other than selfish.

Derek might think that he is being unselfish by dining with his wife rather than going out with friends. But ultimately it serves him to please his wife and dine with her rather than reap the potential repurcussions that might result if he doesn’t.

Some people appear extremely “unselfish” because of their prodigious acts of philanthropy. But I would argue that it pleases them to be that way.

So I don’t buy the “selfish” argument. We all do what we ultimately want to do.[/quote]

Explain to me how doing what we ultimately want means that it is selfishness?

Just because someone likes being humble doesn’t mean they are prideful, and just because one likes to be chaste, doesn’t mean they are in fact a whore. And, just because one likes to be meek doesn’t mean they are unjustly angry. Your argument is fallacious.

From the time of antiquity men have concluded that for a man to be perfect in virtue they are to act virtuously joyfully and quickly, with no second thought of vice.

Read some Aristotle. Or Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what I am saying.

But that’s most likely because debate is not my forte.

I stand by my opinion even if I cannot articulate it well. Which is to say that we all ultimately do what we want and what serves us best. But I do not believe that we can be otherwise. [/quote]

No, your opinion was articulated well, and it certainly had nothing to do with the secret whoreishness of the chaste. I don’t know where that came from, but there was no ambiguity in your original words.

The millionaire playboy chases women because he is selfish. But why does the monk live in celibate asceticism? Because he believes God exists and wants him to live such a life. And why do what God wants? It reduces, in the end, to some fundamental command issued by and for the self.

This isn’t to say that one form of selfishness isn’t nobler than any other. And it isn’t really a criticism, either: How could it be any other way, given that our experience of the world is necessarily and utterly selfish (right now, I’m typing my thoughts with my fingers in response to something I saw with my eyes and evaluated in my brain. All because I want to.)[/quote]

This is partly a matter of semantics, and partly a matter of philosophy/world-view. Leaving aside the possible philosophical difference, I believe the usual term for the broader sense of “selfishness” is “enlightened self-interest”.

I believe the post that first introduced the term “selfishness” into this thread intended “selfishness” in the narrower sense (which semantically, is probably the more correct meaning of the term, anyway). And in my non-expert opinion it would seem logical that “selfishness” in the narrower sense would be a major problem for any kind of relationship.
[/quote]

Yes, I was going to make the point about semantics in response to Brother Chris’ insistence above that “the definition for selfishness [is].” I can choose a wide or narrow definition as I see fit; as for the intentions of the first to bring “selfishness” up, I haven’t been following along, and you may well be right.

However, I think it’s worthwhile to consider the extent to which the self, in a wide philosophical sense, can underlie even “unselfish” impulses like devotion to family, love, religious righteousness, charitable contribution, etc.