I have been reading various posts on the forum about dites, etc., and almost all start with someone saying “I take this suppliment, and this suppliment, and this suppliment”. The only things that I take that even come close to suppliments are whey protein, flax seed oil, and vitamins. Am I all alone, or are there others out there who are blessed with good bodybuilding genetics and don’t have to turn to supplimentation to get an edge? I come from a long line of big, strong men and I have never had problems gaining muscle or loosing fat, in fact I usually make better progress than people spend half of their paychecks on suppliments, I can always gain 1 or 2 pounds of lean mass every week of a gaining phase, and loose 2 to 6 pounds of fat for every week of fat loss, just by manipulating my diet. Am I all alone or are there other cornfed sumbitches out there who are tough enough not to need drugs to alter their physiques?
Nick: Please bear with a little “philosophy” here while I try to give you my personal take on your question. (Which is a good one!)
When you look at this Fitness/Bodybuilding/Competitive Sports "thing" that we all who post here seem to love, most people are always fighting against what I call the two "X" factors; mental and physical. Yes, I believe that there are individuals whos genetics pre-dispose them to not having to put forth as MUCH effort as others in reaching their goals, but even with some physical "advantage", the mental is what makes them the champion. (Michael Jordan is an example. Phil Jackson once said (speaking of his current duo of whining, selfish "superstars") that (and I'm paraphrasing) "Coby has the skills of Jordan to be the greatest, but not the MENTAL instinct to win and lead". Everybody needed to simply get out of the way when Jordan wanted to win).
The list can go on where the MENTAL is what makes the person tough and ultimately a champion. Were these people the biggest, strongest and most PHYSICAL specimens in their endeavors?: Spud Webb, Joe Montana, Steve PreFontaine, Larry Bird, Jackie Robinson (talk about MENTAL fortitude!), Doug Flutie, Larry Scott (in the Iron Game we all love!), Mugsey Bogues,Joe Dimmagio (who would practice until his knees, feet and hands bled, by the way...), Lance Armstrong...the list can go on. The point? I THINK THAT A LOT OF THAT SEARCH FOR THE "MAGIC BULLET" FOR MANY STEMS FROM A WEAKNESS THAT WE ALL HAVE IN THE "MENTAL X" FACTOR. We probably are not making the progress we desire NOT because of physical flaws in our underlying "genetics" but because dieting, pushing the steel, avoiding a nice juicy Fat Burger("...Don't bother me...I'm eatin'"...), getting up at 4 a.m. and doing aerobics etc. IS MENTALLY HARD! So we compromise here; rationlize there; eat a Fat Burger or two, then write into T-Mag and ask "I ain't growin' or losin' fat; how much D-Bol do I take?"
Guys…I have to keep the mental in check EVERY DAY! It’s a life long process…
Dang, Nick!..Did I answer your question? (It’s GOTTA be the low carbs…)
well nick i like how people with not such amazing genetics just arent tough enough.
mental toughness gets ya only so far hell i have the mental toughness to train for 4 hours in a row. just cause im mentally tough its gonna make me grow? i also only take flax seed oil, fish body concentrates, and MRPs/ protein powders. and im a dang good powerlifter. but i was born strong some people arent born to look like Bill Kazmier. i wouldnt doubt someones mental toughness just cause they dont make gains. after all if everyone was mentally tough no one would be paralized. or theyd order anti bodies and phaggosytes to kill bacteria and virus’s mentally.
-G
I don’t think that my success has much to do with my mentality towards working out because even when I am in low spirits and feeling burned out I can still make great gains. And don’t get me wrong, it doesn’t come easy to me, I have to work for everything I get. What I was meaning is that most people who lift weights keep strict diets and use drugs to get the results that I can get on a bad diet without any supplimentation at all (I don’t really think that protein shakes and flax seed oil are suppliments, just liquified food). I know there are others out there like me, but because they don’t have the usual problems with body building, they don’t post messages on the forum asking for help, I was just wanting to hear from some of them so as to know that I am not the only one.
Also I would like to hear from people who have reached their goals without using steroids or anabolic suppliments. I know many people will hate me for this statement, but I think that people who take steroids are pussies. I think that if you cannot get big without them, then you are either doing something wrong, or were never meant to get big in the first place. Either that or they are just too impatient to get the same results they could get staying clean, so they turn to the only way that they can reach their goals quickly. Besides that the only way you can really appreciate your gains is to really work for them. For example, a police officer who retires and gets his pension will appreciate his hard earned money much more than a corrupt officer who was on the take and made money the easy way.
Nick, I want to try to ask this without
sounding like an asshole, but I’ll probably
fail because it’s an asshole-like question
to ask. But, you say you never have any trouble
gaining 1-2 lb LBM “every” week in gaining phases, or losing two to six – I didn’t make a typo, that’s 6 – pounds of fat every week when dieting.
OK, at that kind of rate of fat loss, you shouldn’t need to be dieting more than 1/3
of the time. Gain a pound of fat per week
when bulking – that’s more than you should
really but it’s not too bad an error –
and then take half a week to lose it at
your slowest rate, or about one day at
your fastest rate.
And let’s say you lose 1 lb LBM every
week of dieting. That’s an unfortunate
thing obviously, who wants to lose LBM,
and maybe supplementation could help there,
but let’s say you lose 1 lb LBM per week.
And let’s say you coast 3 months out of
the year, neither gaining nor losing anything
because you’re wanting to take it a little
easier and just spin your wheels. Not that
I advise that but let’s say you do.
So that makes 6 months of gaining at 1-2 lb
LBM per week, and 3 months of dieting at
an LBM loss of 1 lb per week (certainly should
not be more than that.)
This makes 26-52 lb per year of LBM gain
while gaining, and 13 lb of LBM loss while
dieting, or a net of 13-39 lb LBM gain
per year.
Do you really gain that year after year,
no trouble?
That can happen in the first few years
of training, but not after that, else
everyone would be 300, 400, or even 500
or more lb of ripped muscle after 20 years
of training.
What I’m saying is a lot of guys fall into
the trap of seemingly “always gaining” but
in reality they are in a futile cycle…
after a year of all these fast gains,
they’re still the same as last year, because
losses equaled gains.
What I’m saying is that it’s not as easy
for the natural lifter as what your post
makes it sound like. You can gain 1-2 lb
LBM “every week” only if it’s regains after
having lost it while dieting. If there
were no losses then gains don’t come that
fast, else we’d all gain 52-104 lb per year
LBM.
Mufasa…awesome answer. I’ve always been inspired by those that have had the mental drive to succeed and push themselves into greatness. Did you know that Walt Disney was told he would never amount to anything in the cartoon biz (same with Stephen King and writing)? And that they laughed at him when he wanted to build Disneyland? Ted Turner was told that he was insane to think a 24 hour news network would be profitable (nobody wanted to invest with him). How did Arnold Shwarzenneger come from being a skinny kid in Austria to one of the most powerful and wealthy men in Hollywood and most famous bodybuilder of all time? Stallone, (a recent post of mine whom I’ve researched since) was a nobody in Hell’s Kitchen in New York with a crooked face and short stature that is also a huge icon in our culture. Fucking “it feels like deca” Bill Phillips, started out with a newsletter in his mother’s garage for Christ’s sake! Yes, drive and desire are the answer. What the hell does this have to do with the post? I don’t know, but thanks for letting me rant!! 
Bill I have a question for you. I’m sure it’s been asked before, but I’d like your opinion. I think you have said (perhaps it was John Berardi) that a Body Mass Index of 28 was outstanding for a natural bodybuilder. But that was in a very lean condition, like 6% bodyfat. What do you think is a reasonable expectation for a natural athlete if he maintains about 10-12% bodyfat? Thanks.
All the genetics in the world and you still can’t spell the word “supplement”!!!
Good response Bill. Nick, it has nothing to do with toughness. It has to do with genetics. In fact you admit it yourself.
My brothers are all big sumbitches also. Heck, they drink beer, smoke, eat crappy food, look like powerlifters (even my little brother) and don’t even lift weights. They would crush your cornfed body with one hand tied behind their backs. I on the other hand wasn’t so fortunate. I have horrible genetics. I started lifting at 16 at 135lbs. Ten years later, I was 150lbs. I took every supplement there was, lifted hard and ate correctly. In fact one of my brothers (who was lifting at the time) told me the same damn thing you said. He told me I wasn’t training hard enough or eating enough. Well, I invited him to the gym. I kicked his ass, even though he outweighed me by 30 lbs at the time. He came over and ate with me one day. He told me, I don’t understand why your not growing. If I trained like you do and ate like that, I’d be huge and ripped. No shit.
I am 41 now and am the busiest trainer in my home town of 800,000 people. I am successful, because I had to work for what little I have. I had to try new things all the time. I have had clients lose 120lb of fat in a year or gain 30lbs of muscle in three months, without drugs. So, if I have all this knowledge, why won't it work for me? GENETICS.
So, let me ask you this. If you were born with poor genetics, would you be using drugs or just staying normal looking?
Nick, first of all, how old would you be? I am a young person, 21 years old, and since I started pumping iron I have not stopped making gains, I started out at probably 5’nothin and 110lbs at 13, and am now 5’11" and 203lbs. Which puts me at about 11 lbs a year, and I am natural and do consider myself to have terrific genetics, but as everyone’s points have illustrated, you do seem to be looking for everyone to stroke your cock and tell you good job, while I do share your opinion of steroids, instead of holding them against people, I usually just try to ignore their existence. If you really make those kinds of gains, I would say you’re probably a growing teen or just a liar. My next post I think will be titled “I’m the best, who wants to kiss me”. And take the advice of whoever said it, and learn to spell words like “supplements” and “diet”, because corn fed actual horses can make muscle gains like you claim, but also can’t spell. --OUT
SNM…LOL. Good one. I think we all were thinking it, but you just came right out and said it. Kudos.
Outside of “juice” there are NO supplements that make a real dramatic difference . . . I worked out for years without supplements and could go back off supps tomorrow with very little loss.
Nick, are you the guy from nuclear with the 19 inch arms at age 22?
Bill Roberts. I started out being a fat guy with a fair amount of muscle. I worked at first just for fat loss and I was able to loose about 6lbs of fat a week for the first week or two of a fat loss phase then I have to slow it down so as to not loose too much muscle, and yes when I lost 6lbs of fat I did loose more muscle then I wanted to, but I then upped my calories and dropped down the fat loss to about 2lbs a week for the remainder of the phase. I like to start it off fast and then slow it down . I started out at about 230lbs with high body fat, a little over 30% if I remember correctly. I lost alot of the fat and alot of muscle to start with and have been building it back ever since. I don’t do gaining phases very often, I have been working for maximal strength quite a bit for the last year or so and I don’t make great gains in mass when I am strength training, I am not blessed with a high amount of fast-twitch fibers, but I usually gain about 5 to 10 lbs of lean mass when I do try to just gain mass, in about 6 to 8 weeks, but I also gain quite a bit of fat. I only work for mass a couple of months out of the year, probably about 3 to 5. I am now back to 235lbs at about 8 to 10% body fat and I am 22 years old and 5’9.5", and my age probably does have something to do with it. You are exactly right about gaining back mass from weight loss at a faster rate than normal. And to all of the others out there who replied to my post, I am sorry if I sound like an asshole, I didn’t mean that I was some kind of ultimate badass and everyone who takes supplements are just a pussies. I just wanted to hear from some others who don’t take them. The reason I posted this in the first place is because I try to look up info in the forum and almost all posts have several supplements listed, so I don’t know if what they are doing will work for me without the suppliments. Also thanks for the spelling lesson, I never paid attention to the spelling of supplement, I just spelled it like it sounds. I also missused the word tough, it wasn’t exactly what I had meant, or rather I didn’t mean that people without good genetics aren’t tough, hell the toughest person I know only weighs 145lbs, he may not be the stronges person but he is made of iron and doesn’t even lift weights and he could probably kick my ass, also my best friend has been working out for about 4 times as long as I have and has not made much gains in the way of muscle mass but he is a hell of a lot tougher than I am. To tell the truth I am not that tough myself, I am just good at gaining mass when I try to. I wasn’t looking for someone to stroke my cock either, I was just looking for some others like me who refuse to even take creatine.
Rafael, I am not the guy from nuclear, but I am 22 years old and my arms are just about 18 inches.
Nick, I hear ya buddy. I’ve been maintaining my physique since I was 16 years. I’m 24 years old now and although I’m not massive, I’m 6’3 and 220 lbs with upper single digit body fat. To maintain I currently only workout an average of once or twice a week. My diet’s not bad, but not great either. The body I have now is as good as I could possibly want it. Although I could get much more muscular as I have been in the past it’s not my wish to look like a pro bodybuilder. Having to deal with exercise and dieting minutae I do not believe is a road to happiness. There are much more important things in life other than eating the “perfect” diet and leading your life around your workouts. The reason we workout is to enjoy the rest that life has to offer not vice versa. And by the way, just so this doesn’t lead to confusion. I’m not saying paying attention detail is bad (it’s something I still do), I just think there is a point of dimishing returns where you gotta start thinking about balance.
Damn Nick, that’s a lot closer to Earth. Anyways, the reason I was so harsh in my first e-mail, is that I have roommates who do struggle with things like weight loss, or gaining muscle, and there are many more people in the world with such problems, than there are people with ‘problems’ like you or I who can eat whatever diet we feel like and then have success in the gym, and they have compared similar posts to the guy who calls LoveLine to complain that his penis is too big. Understand? But if it helps at all, I do a lot of the Ian King programs, and the man is a genious, and I am much stronger than I have ever been, and have gained probably 10 lbs. since I started using them, last July or so, and without any supplementation except mass amounts of protein. Just try to remember that, looking through the forum you’ll notice a lot of people looking for support as they undergo excrutiating diets, like the fat fast support group, which my roommate has used and is painful to watch, let alone follow. My point is that, posts like yours could easily be seen as discouraging or plain mean spirited. GOOD LIFTING
Nick. Good follow up. It takes one hell of a man to come back with a post like that. I never put clients on anything other than what you are taking. I only up the ante’ if they stop gaining/losing. Good luck in all your endeavors.
This reminds me of a quote from Anold’s book “If you drive a ferarri you don’t have to drive fast.” What do you drive?