[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
and I play tennis/racketball recreationally.
And I think we have identified the disconnect right here.[/quote]
…so the fact that I play racketball with my friends means what, exactly?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Sure, powerlifting is a sport. Its a competition based on who can lift the most weight.
Yes, technique should play a role in powerlifting. How could it not?
I’m not really a fan of any sports… I’ll watch some boxing or MMA if its on, and I play tennis/racketball recreationally.[/quote]
Ok, my comments here are for this thread and relate to the Kennelly thread, too.
Powerlifting is a sport which has an event called the competitive bench press. This bench press is not the same as what every moron with a gym membership does. It has rules and guidelines that must be followed for it to be a good lift. A gym rat can do anything he wants in a gym and tell his buddies what he “benched.” If anything the competition bench press is more credible than the gym bench press.
In your own words powerlifting is “a competition based on who can lift the most weight.” You said nothing about being the strongest. In fact, sports are rarely solely about who’s the strongest. This includes something as basic as arm wrestling.
There are other skills necessary. In powerlifting’s case, these skills come from the use of a shirt. It adds an element of technique.
Now many will argue that the sport isn’t as pure with shirt technology continuously advancing, but technology advances in all sports. Purists argue against the aluminum bat in college baseball. Golf drivers have become more powerful.
Even tennis rackets have created faster and faster serves and returns. It happens in all sports, yet it seems powerlifting is the only sport where non-fans respond so strongly.
And that’s the problem shirt-defenders (for lack of a better word) have with those against shirts. It’s usually non-competitors, non-fans, and those that know the least about the sport and the equipment that are the loudest. Yes there are those that compete that are against gear, but mostly they understand what the sport has become. They can compete in a federation that caters to their needs.
You rarely see non-fans of other sports complaining about those advances in technology.
It’s fine to not like shirts, even as a non-fan, but don’t pretend to understand them if you have never used one. It’s also fine to say powerlifting isn’t about pure strength, because it’s not entirely, but most of the top lifters are still going to be the top raw lifters.
You said part of your issue with shirts is that they can claim a higher number. Well, hell yeah they can claim a higher number. They just completed the lift in a competition setting. That number means more than any gym lift. You don’t here batter claiming home runs hit in batting practice.
Or golfers claiming what they hit on the driving range. Why would someone ask a professional bencher what he benches and expect a response about a non-official lift?
I guess the whole point is that powerlifitng is a sport that has advance itself just like every other sport and I hope all the non-fans feel the same way about every other sport that has advanced itself. Which is just about every sport ever.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
and I play tennis/racketball recreationally.
And I think we have identified the disconnect right here.
…so the fact that I play racketball with my friends means what, exactly?[/quote]
Possible cultural differences that make it hard for you to understand powerlifting?
vs.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
My question about overhead pressing, quite a few strength coaches and some PT’s have commented on this. Now considering overhead pressing may not help a bench press, I dont know if it could hurt it, but if it helps balance the rotator cuff in terms of what plane strength is developed in and can help prevent injuries is it worth it?[/quote]
Not true, overhead work also pounds the crap out of your shoulders. To balance out shoulder development, you need to work the scapular retractors and rear delts. You need to keep the shoulders clean myofascial adhesion wise.
But doing over head work will not necessarily fix or prevent shoulder injuries. There are three different shapes of acromion processes that might prevent overhead work and limit bench work. the worst is known as a hooked acromion. The hooked shape is more prone to impingement on the supraspinatus tendon.
Don’t let the olympic lifters fool you. O lifting is as dangerous or more dangerous than powerlifting in regards to shoudler, knee, elbow, and back issues.
[quote]Modi wrote:
It’s pretty simple. People want to know how they stack up against one another. It’s human nature.
If I tell someone that I can bench 275, then most people are going to say “oh, I can bench more than that” or “wow, that’s pretty strong”. Either way, they are comparing their lift to yours.
The reason people care about bench shirts is because most people (non-powerlifters) don’t use them and they can no longer compare their unequipped numbers to someone wearing a shirt. In their eyes it becomes an unfair advantage, even though they aren’t the ones competing.
No one cares about squat suits, because only about 10% of the average gym goers ever actually squat. And only 10% of them actually get down to parallel, the rest can compare their damn 1/4 squats to one another. No one squats, or deadlifts for that matter, because it’s too hard, to exhausting, and it makes their legs too damn sore to jog their 10 minutes at 5.0mph on the treadmill so they can burn off that bag of Doritos they had on the way to the gym.
I actually thought this would be an informative thread about bench shirts, and instead it’s the same old argument over and over again.[/quote]
Exactly right. They want to know how they stack up. but if they had any balls, they would enter a meet, even a raw meet.
What makes me laugh is that all the “bench press purists” here
would be hard pressed to hit their max in a meet. It’s not as easy as it looks when you have some referees watching for infractions and something is on the line.
My thinking was and is, if I don’t know you your max is crap unless it was in a meet, or you’ve trained with people that I know what their doing. a lot of people over the years would brag about a lift and under my watchful eye would do oh, 100 lbs less or so in a decent touch and go style, let alone a pause.
The normal amount of my bench was always about 10-100 pounds less than the person speaking to me, but of course they don’t lift now because of -------------- fill in the excuse.
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
and I play tennis/racketball recreationally.
And I think we have identified the disconnect right here.
…so the fact that I play racketball with my friends means what, exactly?
Possible cultural differences that make it hard for you to understand powerlifting?
vs.
Nothing hard to understand at all.
Powerlifting started out as a competition of strength: Who can lift the most weight in certain ways (eventuall squat, bench, and deadlift).
Years pass and people start getting frustrated that they arent the strongest, and cant accept the fact that they aren’t, so they start using equipment that allows them to move heavier and heavier weight.
Now, suddenly, the bench press isnt about how much you can bench press, its about your “technical” skills.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Sure, powerlifting is a sport. Its a competition based on who can lift the most weight.
Yes, technique should play a role in powerlifting. How could it not?
I’m not really a fan of any sports… I’ll watch some boxing or MMA if its on, and I play tennis/racketball recreationally.
Ok, my comments here are for this thread and relate to the Kennelly thread, too.
Powerlifting is a sport which has an event called the competitive bench press. This bench press is not the same as what every moron with a gym membership does. It has rules and guidelines that must be followed for it to be a good lift. A gym rat can do anything he wants in a gym and tell his buddies what he “benched.” If anything the competition bench press is more credible than the gym bench press.
[/quote]
I disagree, if by “competition” you mean “shirted”. A bench press with a shirt is less credible than a bench press without. Speaking of which… please explain to me why there are such rules and guidelines that must be followed for it to be a good lift.
Why not let them pick their ass up off the bench? Or bounce off the chest?
Could it be that doing these things would result in them “lifting” numbers that they couldnt otherwise “lift” if they used proper form? Could it be that Raising ones ass off the bench or bouncing off the chest would result in a gross misrepresentation of what the person could “bench”?
But why not just allow it and call it “technique”? Why not defend “ass raised” benching or go on about how much skill is involved in “getting the most out of a bounce”??
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I disagree, if by “competition” you mean “shirted”. A bench press with a shirt is less credible than a bench press without.[/quote]Actually, I just meant “competition.” But if we are comparing a competition shirted bench against a un-shirted gym lift, then yes, the shirted lift is more credible.[quote] Speaking of which… please explain to me why there are such rules and guidelines that must be followed for it to be a good lift.
Why not let them pick their ass up off the bench? Or bounce off the chest?
Could it be that doing these things would result in them “lifting” numbers that they couldnt otherwise “lift” if they used proper form? Could it be that Raising ones ass off the bench or bouncing off the chest would result in a gross misrepresentation of what the person could “bench”?
But why not just allow it and call it “technique”? Why not defend “ass raised” benching or go on about how much skill is involved in “getting the most out of a bounce”??
[/quote]
I don’t think it would ever be good idea to bounce more than four or five hundred pounds off one’s chest. As far as ass-raising, if that were considered legal, I would “defend” that, too.
You see, the funny thing about sports, is that they all have rules. Some rules are there for no other reason than they’ve always been there. Keeping the ass in contact with the bench is a rule in place for benching, and I accept it. Maybe in the future, the rules will change.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Years pass and people start getting frustrated that they arent the strongest, and cant accept the fact that they aren’t, so they start using equipment that allows them to move heavier and heavier weight.[/quote]
How did you know that this is the reason why shirted benching came in the first place?
[quote]Why not let them pick their ass up off the bench? Or bounce off the chest?
Could it be that doing these things would result in them “lifting” numbers that they couldnt otherwise “lift” if they used proper form? Could it be that Raising ones ass off the bench or bouncing off the chest would result in a gross misrepresentation of what the person could “bench”?
But why not just allow it and call it “technique”? Why not defend “ass raised” benching or go on about how much skill is involved in “getting the most out of a bounce”??[/quote]
Don’t bloody your nose over it. The rules exist because the federation that created the rules ultimately wanted those rules to be in place. That’s why there are different federations that have different rules in powerlifting. Some allow shirts while some don’t.
If it would help relieve your anxiety, you could create your own federation that allows ass raised off the bench or chest bouncing. But then, there will be people who might think that this rule you created is stupid because it doesn’t fit their definition on what is right. How would you feel? Dissed maybe, as if these people know better than you?
I think your main problem is seeing things through your own cultural lens. You think that allowing shirts but not allowing chest bounces or asses not touching the bench is stupid because something as simple as your sense of logic has been shaped by your culture.
If there was a federation that allowed ass-raised bench presses, I’d respect those rules, even if I define my bench press as one with ass touching the bench. It’s their definition, so I’ll leave it at that. Heck, if there was forklift bench pressing, I’d accept it as it is. I think it’s a more mature way to act than calling certain rules stupid.
Ehhhhh. This final line of logic (“Its ok because they say its ok and you have to agree with whatever rules they say are ok”) still feels a little faulty.
But I’m bored with the conversation, so I’m gonna step out.
Take care, guys.
Bottom line: If you love benching raw, enter a raw meet or lift raw in a geared meet.
Or maybe just enter any meet and learn about what you are talking about.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Ehhhhh. This final line of logic (“Its ok because they say its ok and you have to agree with whatever rules they say are ok”) still feels a little faulty.
[/quote]
Sure, it can be considered faulty. But my point is that all sports have rules in the same manner. So stay consistent and dislike all sports, ok?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
malonetd wrote:
And I’ll make a deal with you, you tell me exactly your issue with bench shirts and I will dig up some batting statistics for you. Seriously, I don’t get it. Shirted benchers don’t care if you bench RAW. Why is it such an issue the other way around?
My issue is that the shirt assists the lifter enough that it gives a false representation of strength. I feel as though this takes away from the point of the sport/event.
It just seems, to me, like a way to get assistance on the hardest part of the lift and still claim the weight. I’d feel the same way if powerlifters used straps when deadlifting; it would be a way for them to avoid a potential weak link (grip strength) and claim a larger number. [/quote]
You know what, fuck it. This thread is so ridiculous it’s time for me to make this post.
If a shirt gives a mis-representation of your full range to the chest bench, it gives in return a very real representation of your lockout/top end strength.
If that point is true, then this one must also hold, raw benching gives a gross mis-representation of your top end strength but a very real view of your bottom end strength.
Raw benching makes you appear weaker than you are. Shirted benching makes you appear stronger. It would seem.
So how do you actually know how strong your bench is??
And how do you compare it to the days of yesteryear when lifters had to lift the weight off the floor, lie back, press it and stand up again? That’s a REAL bench press. Times have moved on you say? The racks are there for lifter safety? So were the shirts. But then the racks allowed the lifter to hit more weight than a “true” traditional bench, the shirts do the same now. OMFG what do we do??? Take away the shirts AND the uprights or untwist our knickers and accept the simple fact that times change and the sport is constantly evolving???
Hmmmm…
i went to the arnold classic this year and of course there were powerlifters there as well as fitness enthusiasts, tennis players, and old fat guys. they made announcements about the 1000 pound bench competition over the pa and people were excited and amazed. my father was dumbfounded “how can anyone bench that much” he asked me. “they can’t” i said.
does no one see the falacy in equiped lifting? thousands of people now think that a man could actually bench 1000 pounds. they did not announce, “at 5 pm there will be an equipped bench press competition where lifters will be using weights 300 pounds heavier than they can actually lift.” who would come watch that?
but wait, what if they said there will be a bench competiton where competitors will be benching 700 lbs, do you think people would be intrigued? of course they would be. my father still would have said “how can anyone bench that much” and i could have said “yeah thats amazing.”
powerlifters are strong regardless of their gear. but the there have been so many “advancements” in gear that it is hard to even know what people are actually capable of anymore.
when micheal johnson, mo green, and all those other superhuman atheletes break sprint records no one needs to ask if they were wearing normal running shoes or pneumatic shoes. there is no geared running, that is why that sport is in the olympics.
gear started as a means to prevent injuries and has turned into a freakshow. i’m sorry but i don’t understand how others don’t see this.
“Raw benching makes you appear weaker than you are”
Huh?
Really? Now that’s something not many people know.
[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:
there is no geared running, that is why that sport is in the olympics.
[/quote]
it might in the olympics, but believe me they are geared out of their minds.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Ehhhhh. This final line of logic (“Its ok because they say its ok and you have to agree with whatever rules they say are ok”) still feels a little faulty.
But I’m bored with the conversation, so I’m gonna step out.
Take care, guys.[/quote]
Hey, thanks for sharing your opinion. Let us know how you do at your next powerlifting meet.
I’ll make sure I let you know how my next raquetball tourney goes.
[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:
“Raw benching makes you appear weaker than you are”
Huh?[/quote]
It’s clearly fucking ridiculous. As is most of this thread.
is this what powerlifting has become?
what a joke!!!
this is why assholes like me start poking fun at powerlifting, because fake ass records like this are being set.
yeah i already know 1200 lb is alot to have on your back. but powerlifting is not about who can hold the most weight it’s about who can lift the most weight (it is supposed to be anyway)
the monolift should taken out of all competitions so should the judges that gave this guy white lights. i can’t be the only one who is disgusted by this. if i am i feel sorry for the future of the sport.