[quote]meangenes wrote:
You’re getting off subject. This isn’t a thread on evolution.
Besides, your point is not only unrelated but false as well. Technology allows for more, not less. After all it is an adaptation.
I’m not going to explain how biased your point is because you seem to have mentioned it but haven’t emphasized it. I’ll say this much;There are others without the privileges that we have in America.
Our physical evolution is dependent upon by our mental capabilities. With the aid of certain technologies we don’t have to worry about these physical adaptations. We can evolve our minds, physical evolution is too slow anyway, Oldschool.
Memetics.[/quote]
True, however I have only posted 2 times about the subject, and one was in response to another persons post. And I did qualify my statements by saying “3rd world countries not withstanding”… Which was my way saying There are others without the privileges that we have in America..
And really, how many posts from the same guy do I have to read who thinks CROP CIRCLES ARE REALLY MADE BY ALIEN BEINGS before its obvious he is a true believer who is not swayed by evidence to the contrary? He is conspicuously absent the last few days I have noticed… I wonder if “they” got to him because he was getting to close to The Truth.
Getting back on track though: Aliens(organisms on planets other than Earth) are most likely real, however I think they look/behave vastly different than we have imagined and I do not believe they have visited the Earth. I certainly do not believe that they make crop circles or abduct farmers.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
masonator wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
MrChief wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Where are they from and how did they get here?
As best we know faster than light travel is impossible so having vistors from outside our solar system is pretty damned unlikely.
What about traveling in dimensions above ours?
Sure, why not.
Zap, it was also once thought that putting a man in space was impossible,
Not by real scientists. They saw a way and they got it done.
but we figured out a way to do it. I have no clue how visitors get here, but I think they obviously have some means of travel that we do not know about yet. I know I sound like a dirty hippy here, but I do not think it’s logical to assume we are the only sentient beings in the universe. But it’s possible that there have not been visitors and that I have a case of wishful thinking…
It is possible that there is life all over the universe but since faster than light travel takes infinite energy it is impossible. No one is traveling here from another planet. It just isn’t happening. Read up on the physics.
[/quote]
The way that works Zap is we can create a graph where at one end of the graph velocity and mass are at zero and time is infinite. As we accelerate time slows and mass and velocity increase. They cross in the middle and at the other end of the graph where velocity reaches the speed of light mass becomes infinite and time reaches zero.
Since mass becomes infinite at the speed of light it requires an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a mass to the speed of light. This is why they say travel at light speed is impossible.
However there is a loophole to this theory. Because while it does take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a mass to light speed, it does not preclude the possiblity that particles can come into existence already traveling at the speed of light and therefore not needing to be accelerated. What is needed is a way to exploit this loophole.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
However there is a loophole to this theory. Because while it does take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a mass to light speed, it does not preclude the possiblity that particles can come into existence already traveling at the speed of light and therefore not needing to be accelerated. What is needed is a way to exploit this loophole. [/quote]
Do you have evidence that anything has ever been observed to come into existence already traveling at the speed of light? I’ve not heard of that happening, but am happy to read about it.
Also, I was under the impression that traveling at the speed of light required the energy, not merely accelerating to the speed. If this were true, and to my understanding of the subject it is(please point me to information that shows me I am wrong if I am). This would make the loophole irrelevant.
Also, and this is not logic by any stretch of the imagination(actually its a logical fallacy…), but I cant imagine how an entity could stop themselves from existing, then magically create their mass as it existed before they did so moving at the speed of light. That seems to violate the laws of physics to me. But I’m open to the idea of it happening if it does
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I came in kinda late, so I’ll just bullet point some ideas:
Crop Circles: Give me a break. People still believe that these are made by aliens? The guys who do them admitted to it, and then taped themselves making them… Do you want to believe THAT badly that you deny this kind of evidence?
UFO’s: Just because something remains “unidentified”, does not mean its an alien ship from millions/billions of light years away. It simply means we dont know what it was.
Project Blue Book: If you tell people to start reporting UFOs(any object you cannot identify), I can guarantee you that people will magically start seeing things all on their own. Suddenly the slightest anomaly becomes a UFO.
Science being disproven/turned over: Actually very little established science ever gets “disproven.” Much of the “Science” we used to hold in high regard was actually religious mumbo jumbo (Galileo was under heavy scrutiny by the church at the time).
Very, very rarely does something backed by a consensus get totally disproved, it usually gets added on to.
And finally: While I no doubt think life exists elsewhere in the universe, I honestly doubt it has visited us. Why would we be anything worth visiting if life was commonplace anyway?.
The question is not one of possibility, but probability. It is so improbable that they would find a way to travel such vast distances and magically find us in our little galaxy. We have only been searching the sky for a few hundred years with any sort of vision enhancing tech…
A blink of an eye on a cosmological time scale. It would be quite miraculous indeed to think that, even if aliens did figure out how to travel, we happen to catch them in our neck of the woods right when they did.
Also… Why does no one consider the possibility that maybe WE are the most advanced entities in the universe? Maybe everything else is billions of years behind us instead of ahead of us.
[/quote]
I watched the interview with those two who said they are the ones making the crop circles. Now I am not saying they are made by space aliens but they made an interesting statement that noone seems to have ever picked up on. I can’t remember exactly what they said but it was something along the lines of “We are hoaxsters. We like to fool people.” So what is the real hoax? Is it that they have been going out at night across Britain and Canada making crop circles and fooled people into thinking they are made by ufo’s. Or is the real hoax convincing people that they are the ones responsible?
If it is the latter they must really be having a laugh because they said right up front they are frauds and hoaxsters. Now I am not saying it was made by anyone other than them, but they did say up front that their credibility is questionable yet people believe them without question.
It’s a real paradox if you think about it. The guys who people believe without questioning them are the ones who say we are frauds and hoaxsters who likes to mislead people.
I watched the interview with those two who said they are the ones making the crop circles. Now I am not saying they are made by space aliens but they made an interesting statement that noone seems to have ever picked up on. I can’t remember exactly what they said but it was something along the lines of “We are hoaxsters. We like to fool people.” So what is the real hoax? Is it that they have been going out at night across Britain and Canada making crop circles and fooled people into thinking they are made by ufo’s. Or is the real hoax convincing people that they are the ones responsible?
If it is the latter they must really be having a laugh because they said right up front they are frauds and hoaxsters. Now I am not saying it was made by anyone other than them, but they did say up front that their credibility is questionable yet people believe them without question.
It’s a real paradox if you think about it. The guys who people believe without questioning them are the ones who say we are frauds and hoaxsters who likes to mislead people. [/quote]
This might be a halfway valid point… If they didnt have video and photographic evidence of them making the circles.
They actually make money on it now via making corporate crop logos and the like. I dont think the aliens know what the olympics are or care enough about them to carve the logo into a field of wheat.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
However there is a loophole to this theory. Because while it does take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a mass to light speed, it does not preclude the possiblity that particles can come into existence already traveling at the speed of light and therefore not needing to be accelerated. What is needed is a way to exploit this loophole.
Do you have evidence that anything has ever been observed to come into existence already traveling at the speed of light? I’ve not heard of that happening, but am happy to read about it. [/quote]
It has been many years since I read about it and I have not seen any follow up. But years ago there were observations of some event like a super nova that appeared to be ejecting jets of matter that appeared to be traveling faster than light. They were saying that there must be something that was making it appear like that was happening but it really wasn’t because it broke the laws of physics. But I haven’t seen any follow up on it, so they may or may not have come up with another explanation.
[quote]
Also, I was under the impression that traveling at the speed of light required the energy, not merely accelerating to the speed. If this were true, and to my understanding of the subject it is(please point me to information that shows me I am wrong if I am). This would make the loophole irrelevant. [/quote]
It was in a compilation of advanced theories of propulsion that I read. The guy who postulated the theory was a physicist who was working on the possibility of traveling at light speed. It is an interesting nuance to Einsteins theory.
[quote]
Also, and this is not logic by any stretch of the imagination(actually its a logical fallacy…), but I cant imagine how an entity could stop themselves from existing, then magically create their mass as it existed before they did so moving at the speed of light. That seems to violate the laws of physics to me. But I’m open to the idea of it happening if it does :-)[/quote]
Again the nuance to Einsteins theory was it doesn’t specifically say something can’t travel at the speed of light. It is implied however because as you reach the speed of light, mass becomes infinite which in turn requires an infinite amount of energy to accelerate it. The roadblock is infinite energy is needed to accelerate that fast. You are correct in that it goes against our understanding of physics. But the idea behind it is perhaps our understanding of physics isn’t absolutely correct. It will probably come to nothing, but if we never challenged dogma we wouldn’t be living in the world we do now.
There are other aspects of theoretical physics that may contradict our understanding of physics and get far out. ie There is a theory that our four dimensional universe actually has more than four dimensions. There also is a theory that the fourth dimension (time) may not actually exist. The passage of time may be a trick that our brain plays on us in order to process all the information of our entire life. It would explain things like premonition or our entire life flashing before our eyes when we think we are about to die.
Years ago Hustler had an article about UFO’s that said they were part of a CIA disinformation campaign. I didn’t read the whole article for some reason but it did raise a valid point.
I do think there is some real validity to the idea that the governmet has used UFO’s as a cover for experimental craft. Massive craft that have been seen might have been lighter than air craft.
Another aircraft the US may be flying that I found interesting is based upon a canceled design from the 1960’s called the XB70.
The XB70 was capable of Mach3 like the SR71. There is a theory that the US may be using a plane lke the XB70 as the launch platform for an even faster craft.
Then again there are some ancient religious texts that have references to things that could be explained by advanced beings. The bible has a few, like the cloud that followed the Hebrews around the Sainai during exodus giving them food. Or Ezekial. There are other ones they had on the history channel, though they actually missed a big one. I might have to put it up here, we can call it Sifu’s theory. The Koran has story of the night passage where god came and took Mohammad into space.
It’s an interesting subject to study. One thing I do think is a lot of people on both sides of the issue are jumping to conclusions that may be wrong.
Ehhh… The whole multi-dimensions thing is still out in left field as far as mainstream science is concerned. I believe we may know more when the Large Hadron collider starts doing some work later this year, but its a hypothesis at best right now.
As far as premonition, I’ve never seen any compelling evidence that someone could predict the future with any sort of detail and/or reliability… Although I’m certain that IF multiple dimensions are found to exist every fake psychic(a redundancy in terms really) on the planet will use it to their financial advantage… “I am able to tap into other dimensions where time is not as we know it in this one.” They always love to convert science into PSI-ence.
I’ve thought I was about to die a few times, and I’ve never seen my life flash before my eyes. Although I’m sure it happens to some people, its probably just a fancy coping mechanism we humans have. I doubt ants or fish engage in the behavior.
Also, that idea, along with a few other ideas, opens up a whole can of worms about Free Will too, but that is a whole nother thread.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Years ago Hustler had an article about UFO’s that said they were part of a CIA disinformation campaign. I didn’t read the whole article for some reason but it did raise a valid point. [/quote]
I tend not to get my science information from Hustler, so I must have missed that article
[quote]I do think there is some real validity to the idea that the governmet has used UFO’s as a cover for experimental craft. Massive craft that have been seen might have been lighter than air craft.
Another aircraft the US may be flying that I found interesting is based upon a canceled design from the 1960’s called the XB70.
The XB70 was capable of Mach3 like the SR71. There is a theory that the US may be using a plane lke the XB70 as the launch platform for an even faster craft. [/quote]
The government is under pressure to stay ahead of the curve and develop crafts/weapons under secrecy. I’ve little doubt they have flown experimental craft before. In fact, If you believe the weather-balloon explanation for Roswell, that was a secret mission to test the craft that went awry… They eventually had to cop to what they were doing, the UFO stuff was made up by the public at large, not the government.
A “UFO” is simply a flying object that is not identified… Which is probably 9/10 flying objects in the sky to the casual observer.
[quote]Then again there are some ancient religious texts that have references to things that could be explained by advanced beings. The bible has a few, like the cloud that followed the Hebrews around the Sainai during exodus giving them food. Or Ezekial. There are other ones they had on the history channel, though they actually missed a big one. I might have to put it up here, we can call it Sifu’s theory. The Koran has story of the night passage where god came and took Mohammad into space.
It’s an interesting subject to study. One thing I do think is a lot of people on both sides of the issue are jumping to conclusions that may be wrong.
[/quote]
I tend to regard religious texts as a collection of fanciful fairy tales and not a whole lot more. I’ll definitely not be getting my science out of them (6000 year old flat earth, Humans who regularly lived into their 900’s, evolution denial)
I agree its an interesting idea, but that’s about it really. The Mayans believe the world will end in 4 years.
Since we seem to have reached a consensus that life beyond earth is probable I want to take this opportunity to present the rare earth hypothesis.
I briefly skimmed “Rare Earth: Why Complex Life Is Uncommon in the Universe” years ago and found it to be very persuasive. Ward & Brownlee do a good job refuting the ‘Sagan’ idea that everyone is so familiar with, i.e. that the universe is so vast that it would be virtually impossible for aliens NOT to exist. I can’t remember the details of the argument well enough to recite it now, but it isn’t that complex…
[quote]beebuddy wrote:
Since we seem to have reached a consensus that life beyond earth is probable I want to take this opportunity to present the rare earth hypothesis.
I briefly skimmed “Rare Earth: Why Complex Life Is Uncommon in the Universe” years ago and found it to be very persuasive. Ward & Brownlee do a good job refuting the ‘Sagan’ idea that everyone is so familiar with, i.e. that the universe is so vast that it would be virtually impossible for aliens NOT to exist. I can’t remember the details of the argument well enough to recite it now, but it isn’t that complex…
It is an interesting idea for sure, and one we may never have the answer too. Kinda scary, huh? The universe may not be teaming with life, but I very highly doubt Earth is the only place sporting it. Complex, “thinking” life may be another story. Again, you have to account for things like weather shifts and meteorites(which have both wiped out a majority of life on the planet at one time), radiation poisoning, etc. Everything has to go right for so long for complex life to evolve.
Of course it is possible that Earth is the one and only place in the universe that is favorable to life… How crazy would that be? And then when the Sun blows up, or Andromeda crashed into us here in a few million years its all over unless we find a new place just like it.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Years ago Hustler had an article about UFO’s that said they were part of a CIA disinformation campaign. I didn’t read the whole article for some reason but it did raise a valid point.
I tend not to get my science information from Hustler, so I must have missed that article [/quote]
Me neither, however this was not a scientific article. It was an article about how the government may be using UFO tales as part of a misinformation campaign in order to control people. [quote]
I do think there is some real validity to the idea that the governmet has used UFO’s as a cover for experimental craft. Massive craft that have been seen might have been lighter than air craft.
Another aircraft the US may be flying that I found interesting is based upon a canceled design from the 1960’s called the XB70.
The XB70 was capable of Mach3 like the SR71. There is a theory that the US may be using a plane lke the XB70 as the launch platform for an even faster craft.
The government is under pressure to stay ahead of the curve and develop crafts/weapons under secrecy. I’ve little doubt they have flown experimental craft before. In fact, If you believe the weather-balloon explanation for Roswell, that was a secret mission to test the craft that went awry… They eventually had to cop to what they were doing, the UFO stuff was made up by the public at large, not the government.
A “UFO” is simply a flying object that is not identified… Which is probably 9/10 flying objects in the sky to the casual observer. [/quote]
There is also some research into the possibility that some ufo’s and related abductions are a result of plate techtonics. The release of energy underground is such that it can cause flashes of light in the atmosphere, and the magnetic disturbances can affect the brain. They have done experiments with electromagnets that have replicated feelings of being snatched. [quote]
Then again there are some ancient religious texts that have references to things that could be explained by advanced beings. The bible has a few, like the cloud that followed the Hebrews around the Sainai during exodus giving them food. Or Ezekial. There are other ones they had on the history channel, though they actually missed a big one. I might have to put it up here, we can call it Sifu’s theory. The Koran has story of the night passage where god came and took Mohammad into space.
It’s an interesting subject to study. One thing I do think is a lot of people on both sides of the issue are jumping to conclusions that may be wrong.
I tend to regard religious texts as a collection of fanciful fairy tales and not a whole lot more. I’ll definitely not be getting my science out of them (6000 year old flat earth, Humans who regularly lived into their 900’s, evolution denial) [/quote]
There has been research done into ancient tales that has beared fruit. ie The discovery of Troy.
It is kind of ignorant the way science goes about demanding that ancient tales must be taken literally, as if they were modern scientific documentation. Even the new testament is almost two thousand years old. The authors were not 21st century scientists rigorously applying 21st century methods of scientific reporting. Just because these stories are in religious texts does not mean they don’t contain a kernel of truth that can have non-metaphysical explanations.
The story of Moses and the plagues he warned Pharaoh would come actually could have been caused by real events in nature related to a massive volcano eruption in the Mediterranean at that time.
There are quite a few ancient stories of great floods, maybe the story of Noah has a grain of truth.
Or how about the crucifixion and ressurection of Jesus. Crucifixion was meant to be a slow drawn out death. What if he was merely comatose when they took him off of the cross. It is not like they had our modern medical technology to determine if he was dead. Just last year there was a man who was pronounced dead by paramedics put in a bodybag and taken to the morgue. Where someone noticed the body bag was twitching and they sent him to a hospital.
If modern paramedics could get it wrong, ancient centurions could too. If Jesus was comatose, cooling his body by putting him on a cool stone slab in a grave would increased his chances of survival. It is one of the most fantastic tales in the bible but it could have a very logical down to Earth explanation if you don’t take the tale as one hundred percent literal.
We still have a few years to go to see if they are right or wrong. I would hate to see them proven right. There are things floating around our solar system that could wipe us out and they did have a good grasp of astronomy.
All true enough. The “God of the Gaps” is still alive and well, and I have no problem believing that it was absolutely THRIVING 2000 years ago.
There may be grains of truth to some of what is written in holy texts, but I’m inclined to think much of it is made up or wildly blown our of proportion. This would require a whole nother thread to discuss.
Question: Is there extra-terrestrial intelligence?
Short answer: yes.
Long Answer: Um, I’m sure there is!
Question: Have we had any visits?
Short answer: No REAL visit that has been documented by any “human being”. Everything that has been documented till date has been done by conspiracy nutbags and tricksters. Trust me on this.
Travel to our solar system (or even the milky way) would not make much sense form any point of view for alien intelligence - even if it were viable (traveling light years, warp speeds, hahahahahahaha) The reason “humans” are so interested in this, is because we tend to feel isolated (lonely planet) and need to feel like we are not alone.
SETI is a running joke and a waste of taxpayer and research money.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Question: Is there extra-terrestrial intelligence?
Short answer: yes.
Long Answer: Um, I’m sure there is!
Question: Have we had any visits?
Short answer: No REAL visit that has been documented by any “human being”. Everything that has been documented till date has been done by conspiracy nutbags and tricksters. Trust me on this.
Travel to our solar system (or even the milky way) would not make much sense form any point of view for alien intelligence - even if it were viable (traveling light years, warp speeds, hahahahahahaha) The reason “humans” are so interested in this, is because we tend to feel isolated (lonely planet) and need to feel like we are not alone.
SETI is a running joke and a waste of taxpayer and research money. [/quote]
I’m surprised to see Mr. Chupacabra with such a level head in here, and I do for the most part. The only thing I’m not 100% certain of is that ET Intelligence. We can only speculate until we actually come across it, and while playing the odds definitely gives us a very good bet to put our money on, we cant be 100% sure at this moment.
The general argument I hear for SETI is that the payoff would be so huge it is worth the cost… Thats not MY argument, but its the general argument among the community. I’m inclined to think the project is so unlikely to make a connection that the money would be MUCH better spent on things here at home.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Why would anyone colonize the galaxy when it takes many many generations to make the crossing with no rest stops on the way? What would be the motivation?
Only a stupid creature would do such a thing and stupid creatures cannot invent space travel.
Why would the British colonize America?
[/quote]
Because they could do it in their lifetime.
They didn’t set sail thinking it would take 1000 years to get to America.
[quote]
Imagine if we colonized the moon, and perhaps Mars. Once those populations got large enough, wouldn’t we want to expand further?[/quote]
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Just so everyone is clear on a few evolutionary terms:
-There is really no such thing as “more” evolved… There is only “better suited to ones environment.” I understand what everyone means, but this is just for clarification on the issue as a whole.
-Also, evolution does not happen by chance(entirely). Its a small distinction, and while evolution has no goal in mind, it is guided by environmental pressures…
Which is why we are looking for earth sized planted with water on them. Any life that forms on a planet with the mass and environmental conditions of jupiter would have life that looked wildly different most likely.
And, just for fun, humans have effectively stopped their own evolution for the most part with the advent of technology. People with poor eyesight get to live because of glasses. Those who are susceptible to heat stroke get to live becuase of A/C. Those with weak immune systems get to live because of antibiotics and immunizations. [/quote]
Since we are very close to altering human DNA I would be careful assuming that we stopped to evolve.
Then, we may not be selecting for perfect eyesight and heat resistancy but we are still adapting to an ever changing environment.
The result might be an atrophied body with an enormous brain that lives on high fructose corn syrup and is able to watch Jerry Springer without impairment of higher cognitive functions, like breathing.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Why would anyone colonize the galaxy when it takes many many generations to make the crossing with no rest stops on the way? What would be the motivation?
Only a stupid creature would do such a thing and stupid creatures cannot invent space travel.
Why would the British colonize America?
Because they could do it in their lifetime.
They didn’t set sail thinking it would take 1000 years to get to America.
Imagine if we colonized the moon, and perhaps Mars. Once those populations got large enough, wouldn’t we want to expand further?
[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Why would anyone colonize the galaxy when it takes many many generations to make the crossing with no rest stops on the way? What would be the motivation?
Only a stupid creature would do such a thing and stupid creatures cannot invent space travel.
Why would the British colonize America?
Because they could do it in their lifetime.
They didn’t set sail thinking it would take 1000 years to get to America.
Imagine if we colonized the moon, and perhaps Mars. Once those populations got large enough, wouldn’t we want to expand further?
How?
Von Neumann probes, that´s how.
[/quote]
You realize that they have nothing to do with colonization and human transport don’t you? They are simply self replicating robot spaceships for exploration.
They still won’t get humans to other starsystems in their or their children’ children’s children’s lifetime.
