[quote]FightingScott wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
Overtraining is a myth.
Overtraining is rare. It’s not a myth. Max out on Deads every day for two weeks. What happens to your numbers? If they go up, give me the magical substance in your blood.
You can put too much stress on the body. You don’t grow if you don’t recover. The body is capable of a great deal. It’s capable of more than what most people think is possible. But you can still run it into the ground. Fatigue still occurs. [/quote]
Perhaps, but when someone says:
[quote]
When 99% of the gym population add d’bell laterals, cable laterals etc, they just end up over training. [/quote]
You just have to think…what?
I’ve seen someone over-tired and “burnt out” from training over 10x a week, but nothing that a days rest and a long night’s sleep didn’t fix.
[quote]rsg wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
Overtraining is a myth.
Overtraining is rare. It’s not a myth. Max out on Deads every day for two weeks. What happens to your numbers? If they go up, give me the magical substance in your blood.
You can put too much stress on the body. You don’t grow if you don’t recover. The body is capable of a great deal. It’s capable of more than what most people think is possible. But you can still run it into the ground. Fatigue still occurs.
Perhaps, but when someone says:
When 99% of the gym population add d’bell laterals, cable laterals etc, they just end up over training.
You just have to think…what?
I’ve seen someone over-tired and “burnt out” from training over 10x a week, but nothing that a days rest and a long night’s sleep didn’t fix.[/quote]
Your lateral head of your deltoids needs direct work in order to grow to its potential. By AVOIDING the training of them, they will be left behind.
Why would anyone advocate someone train in a way that LEADS to lagging muscle groups in the long run?
Absolute Bull.
Dipping, pressing rowing and deadlifting will fill out the shoulders quicker than any lateral raise.
When 99% of the gym population add d’bell laterals, cable laterals etc, they just end up over training.
Also, if they are really pushing on the big exercises they cannot possibly be giving any decent intensity to these small exercises. Surely after heavy dips, push press, clean and press, one arm dumbell press etc you haven’t got enough energy left. Im talking about 99% remember. Save the energy and use it to recover and do next workout.
Oh and X, I trained basic and heavy in my garden with the sun blazing, away from the circus today. Afterwards I’ve enjoyed a huge bbq today, ate loads of cake and choc and I’m in a fab mood and feel strong and look good. Settling for normality maybe.
PS I can easily trap bar deadlift 500.
Slowly, Slowly
[/quote]
Weren’t you the guy with 16 inch arms telling people how to train until they got 17 inch arms and then how to train after in the arm measurement thread? That thread was full of shit and so is this one.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Seriously though. How can you say that Lateral Raises are cool and that Flys are a waste of time?[/quote]
When you are lying on your back doing flys, the entire top part of the movement is wasted because the weight is distributed vertically through your arms and puts very little strain on your pecs. Lateral raises are the opposite, the hardest part of the movement is the top of the movement.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
azza30 wrote:
<<< Anyway, its nice to see people standing up to X. >>>
Absolutely!!!
If only we could get more people to stand up to X just think of all the truckloads of muscle that would be built.
I will be naming my first training book:
<------ STANDING UP 2 X ------>
A COMPILATION
Sooper Dooper Ultra Hip n Groovy
Never before Heard of Muscle Building Secrets
For the New Millennium
Gleaned in the Trenches by Those Standing up 2 X
I’m getting shirts made up.
[/quote]
EXCELLENT!
Maybe we can get a “Stand Up 2 X” T-Cell too while we’re at it.
[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Seriously though. How can you say that Lateral Raises are cool and that Flys are a waste of time?
When you are lying on your back doing flys, the entire top part of the movement is wasted because the weight is distributed vertically through your arms and puts very little strain on your pecs. Lateral raises are the opposite, the hardest part of the movement is the top of the movement.
[/quote]
So what does that say about the bottom part of the Lateral Raise? Under this logic, any exercise that’s difficult at the bottom but easy at the top isn’t worthwile. There’s got to be a better answer.
Seriously, I can barely bring myself to even comment on this topic any more. To this day it baffles me how people will go out of their way convince themselves of one idea or another damn the evidence come hell or high water.
Seriously though. How can you say that Lateral Raises are cool and that Flys are a waste of time?[/quote]
Because of the amount of weight used. You are forced to use much less weight on flyes than you would use on regular presses. If anything, I would save movements like cables and pec deck flyes as the very last movement for chest after the heavier exercises have been completed. I think dumbbell flyes are the worst out of those choices. It looks pretty. That doesn’t make it very effective.
Lateral raises are not the same. Any guy who can raise 50lbs or more for several reps without looking like an idiot will not doubt have some fairly large shoulders. Not to mention that most people are going to need to focus directly on their lateral and posterior delt head if the goal is to have rounded shoulders.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I’m getting shirts made up.
Do they come in small?
LOL! You’re a good sport.
Seriously, I can barely bring myself to even comment on this topic any more. To this day it baffles me how people will go out of their way convince themselves of one idea or another damn the evidence come hell or high water.[/quote]
Everyone’s just using extremes or pointing out only what they want to hear from other people’s posts so they can keep arguing their points. But when it gets right down to it there’s probably very little actual disagreement about this subject.
If the people I’ve been arguing against wrote up a 4-day split for a novice lifter, and I wrote one up, they would probably include 1 more isolation exercise than I would.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
So what does that say about the bottom part of the Lateral Raise? Under this logic, any exercise that’s difficult at the bottom but easy at the top isn’t worthwile. There’s got to be a better answer. [/quote]
Bottom of the motion the delts are stretched as you raise the weight up the torque on the arm becomes greater and the muscle is contracted under the greatest load where as flys are the opposite.
The flys the muscle is contracted under the lightest load. I wouldn’t say they are worthless, but there are better alternatives. Preacher curls are the same way which is why I do them on the verticle side of the bench.
These are things that you can easily feel with a little experience, but it is really sort of silly that I even have to explain this to you. You really need to stop over-analyzing everything, because that will hender your progress far more than anything else.
Seriously though. How can you say that Lateral Raises are cool and that Flys are a waste of time?
Because of the amount of weight used. You are forced to use much less weight on flyes than you would use on regular presses. If anything, I would save movements like cables and pec deck flyes as the very last movement for chest after the heavier exercises have been completed. I think dumbbell flyes are the worst out of those choices. It looks pretty. That doesn’t make it very effective.
Lateral raises are not the same. Any guy who can raise 50lbs or more for several reps without looking like an idiot will not doubt have some fairly large shoulders. Not to mention that most people are going to need to focus directly on their lateral and posterior delt head if the goal is to have rounded shoulders.
The question is, why don’t you already know this?
[/quote]
Any guy who can do Deep Stretch Palms in Flys with 90lb Dumbbells without turning the exercise into a press will have some well developed pecs. Why don’t you know this?
Your argument for this stands on nothing but “the amount of weight used.” I hope you don’t intend to ever use this line of logic again if you ever choose to argue about why an exercise is good or bad because it not only makes a bad case for lateral raises, but it makes a bad case for isolation exercises in general. I’m not totally anti-isolation. I’m just saying it’s not a very good way of thinking.
If you said something like “Dumbbell Flys don’t stress the pecs no matter how much weight is used” or “Dumbbell Flys are too dangerous for the shoulder joints to be considered a worthwhile exercise” then you’d be saying something. What would be really crazy is if you told me something I didn’t already know. I’m not saying that I’ve got everything figured out***. Not by a long shot. I’m just saying I want a good answer.
But how are you gonna tell me Flys are bad because you can’t use heavy weights, then tell me lateral raises are good even though you can’t use heavy weights on that exercise either.
***If you cut out everything I say but this sentence and then write the response “You’ve got that right,” you’re officially a jacknut-douche. Fair warning.
[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Seriously though. How can you say that Lateral Raises are cool and that Flys are a waste of time?
When you are lying on your back doing flys, the entire top part of the movement is wasted because the weight is distributed vertically through your arms and puts very little strain on your pecs. Lateral raises are the opposite, the hardest part of the movement is the top of the movement.
[/quote]
A pec deck would solve the biomechanical issue, and I would still consider that a fly :shrug:
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Seriously though. How can you say that Lateral Raises are cool and that Flys are a waste of time?
When you are lying on your back doing flys, the entire top part of the movement is wasted because the weight is distributed vertically through your arms and puts very little strain on your pecs. Lateral raises are the opposite, the hardest part of the movement is the top of the movement.
A pec deck would solve the biomechanical issue, and I would still consider that a fly :shrug:
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Seriously though. How can you say that Lateral Raises are cool and that Flys are a waste of time?
When you are lying on your back doing flys, the entire top part of the movement is wasted because the weight is distributed vertically through your arms and puts very little strain on your pecs. Lateral raises are the opposite, the hardest part of the movement is the top of the movement.
A pec deck would solve the biomechanical issue, and I would still consider that a fly :shrug:
[/quote]
Pec deck was one of the better alternatives I was refering to in my other post. I just don’t call them flys.
[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Seriously though. How can you say that Lateral Raises are cool and that Flys are a waste of time?
When you are lying on your back doing flys, the entire top part of the movement is wasted because the weight is distributed vertically through your arms and puts very little strain on your pecs. Lateral raises are the opposite, the hardest part of the movement is the top of the movement.
A pec deck would solve the biomechanical issue, and I would still consider that a fly :shrug:
Pec deck was one of the better alternatives I was refering to in my other post. I just don’t call them flys.
[/quote]
Yeah, I replied when I read that first part there, and after realized there was a lot more convo about the pec deck, etc.
Any guy who can do Deep Stretch Palms in Flys with 90lb Dumbbells without turning the exercise into a press will have some well developed pecs. Why don’t you know this? [/quote]
There are several better and more effective exercises available for chest development that actually allow greater weight to be used. How is a flye superior to a pressing movement? They both work the exact same muscle group in the exact same fashion since the action is adduction of the humurus…so why can’t you understand that less weight used leads to less adaptation and development?
[quote]
Your argument for this stands on nothing but “the amount of weight used.” I hope you don’t intend to ever use this line of logic again if you ever choose to argue about why an exercise is good or bad because it not only makes a bad case for lateral raises, but it makes a bad case for isolation exercises in general.[/quote]
It is about the weight used and how does that make a bad case for lateral raises? You aren’t hitting the lateral head directly with overhead presses. Most will experience more development in their anterior delts.
There are SEVERAL exercises for chest that allow more weight used which means the two are not the same.
[quote]
But how are you gonna tell me Flys are bad because you can’t use heavy weights, then tell me lateral raises are good even though you can’t use heavy weights on that exercise either. [/quote]
You don’t understand that these are different muscle groups? You don’t understand that your lateral delts are not worked directly with any other exercise like they are with lateral raises?
Put a 18 pound hammerhead on a 6 inch handle and hold it straight out in front of you. Now put a 16 pound hammerhead on a 3 foot handle and hold it straight out in front of you.
Do you know WHY it’s harder to hold the lighter weight? Because there’s a longer lever arm that produces more torque. 90lb flies will produce more of a training effect on the pecs than 100lb a Dumbbell Bench Press
because the muscle is doing more work, not because the weight in the lifters hands is heavier or lighter. I would hope that someone who supports the use of isolation exercises would understand this concept and not contradict it.
Fine. Flies suck. But your reasons for why they suck also suck.
Flies and Lateral Raises are used for the same basic reasons in bodybuilding. If someone isn’t getting enough Pec work from Bench Press, they do files. If someone isn’t getting enough lateral delt work from overhead presses, then do lateral raises.
But the Bench Press targets the Pecs and overhead pressing doesn’t target the lateral deltoid. It’s totally different. Not really. Ask any powerlifter what’s the most important muscle to develop for a big bench. I doubt they’ll say it’s the Pecs.
But Flies are unnecessary since you can do Dumbbell Bench Press or Incline Bench Press. By that line of logic Lateral Raises are equally unnecessary since you can do Upright Rows, High Pulls, Cleans, Snatches, or any number of excellent exercises where you tug on a weight to send it in a vertical path. I think this is called shoulder abduction. Isn’t that what you do in a lateral raise?
So there are not only several exercises for the pecs that allow more weight to be used than on Dumbbell Flies, but here are also several exercises for the lateral deltoid besides lateral raises that allow for more weight to be used.
Overhead pressing isn’t so totally dominated by the posterior deltoid that no lateral deltoid development will occur. If a novice lifter decides to spend his energy on another set of Military Press instead of doing Lateral Raises, he isn’t going to wake up one day and have a gap in the middle of his shoulder. In point of fact, he’ll likely be better off since his shoulders grew faster from focusing on heavy pressing instead of wasting his time refining the shape of his shoulders with lateral raises. I’m not basing this off theory or what I’ve read. I’m basing this off what I’ve seen and what I’ve experienced. No, I don’t have a decade of experience nor have I personally trained any pro bodybuilders but when I look around the gym I can’t help but see that the big, strong people are pressing stuff and the people who manage to be smaller than my tiny ass are doing lateral raises.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Put a 18 pound hammerhead on a 6 inch handle and hold it straight out in front of you. Now put a 16 pound hammerhead on a 3 foot handle and hold it straight out in front of you.
Do you know WHY it’s harder to hold the lighter weight? Because there’s a longer lever arm that produces more torque. 90lb flies will produce more of a training effect on the pecs than 100lb a Dumbbell Bench Press
because the muscle is doing more work, not because the weight in the lifters hands is heavier or lighter. I would hope that someone who supports the use of isolation exercises would understand this concept and not contradict it. [/quote]
The longer the lever arm, the more energy is applied throughout the length of that lever arm. The work remains the same. That means your claim that the muscle is now doing more work is a little off.
from:
you also wrote:
[quote]
Fine. Flies suck. But your reasons for why they suck also suck. [/quote]
Because less weight can be used? How does this suck?
[quote]
Flies and Lateral Raises are used for the same basic reasons in bodybuilding. If someone isn’t getting enough Pec work from Bench Press, they do files. If someone isn’t getting enough lateral delt work from overhead presses, then do lateral raises.
But the Bench Press targets the Pecs and overhead pressing doesn’t target the lateral deltoid. It’s totally different. Not really. Ask any powerlifter what’s the most important muscle to develop for a big bench. I doubt they’ll say it’s the Pecs. [/quote]
What? I used to powerlift. Every muscle from your triceps to your lats are important in the bench press. You can bet if your bench is lagging, special attention to those muscle groups would help.
[quote]
But Flies are unnecessary since you can do Dumbbell Bench Press or Incline Bench Press. By that line of logic Lateral Raises are equally unnecessary since you can do Upright Rows, High Pulls, Cleans, Snatches, or any number of excellent exercises where you tug on a weight to send it in a vertical path. I think this is called shoulder abduction. Isn’t that what you do in a lateral raise?[/quote]
Upright rows are the only exercise you listed that targets the lateral head…and many lifters will avoid that movement due to risk of injury. If upright rows work for you, fine, but why are you acting as if cleans and snatches target the lateral head directly?
They don’t.
[quote]
So there are not only several exercises for the pecs that allow more weight to be used than on Dumbbell Flies, but here are also several exercises for the lateral deltoid besides lateral raises that allow for more weight to be used. [/quote]
You seem confused.
[quote]
Overhead pressing isn’t so totally dominated by the posterior deltoid that no lateral deltoid development will occur.[/quote]
Wow. Who the fuck wrote that no development AT ALL could occur? Is that what your goal is? Any development AT ALL?
[quote]
If a novice lifter decides to spend his energy on another set of Military Press instead of doing Lateral Raises, he isn’t going to wake up one day and have a gap in the middle of his shoulder. In point of fact, he’ll likely be better off since his shoulders grew faster from focusing on heavy pressing instead of wasting his time refining the shape of his shoulders with lateral raises. I’m not basing this off theory or what I’ve read. I’m basing this off what I’ve seen and what I’ve experienced. No, I don’t have a decade of experience nor have I personally trained any pro bodybuilders but when I look around the gym I can’t help but see that the big, strong people are pressing stuff and the people who manage to be smaller than my tiny ass are doing lateral raises. [/quote]
If you’ve never seen a larger bodybuilder doing lateral raises, you are lacking way too much experience to even be arguing this much.
Any guy who can do Deep Stretch Palms in Flys with 90lb Dumbbells without turning the exercise into a press will have some well developed pecs. Why don’t you know this?
There are several better and more effective exercises available for chest development that actually allow greater weight to be used. How is a flye superior to a pressing movement? They both work the exact same muscle group in the exact same fashion since the action is adduction of the humurus…so why can’t you understand that less weight used leads to less adaptation and development?
Your argument for this stands on nothing but “the amount of weight used.” I hope you don’t intend to ever use this line of logic again if you ever choose to argue about why an exercise is good or bad because it not only makes a bad case for lateral raises, but it makes a bad case for isolation exercises in general.
It is about the weight used and how does that make a bad case for lateral raises? You aren’t hitting the lateral head directly with overhead presses. Most will experience more development in their anterior delts.
There are SEVERAL exercises for chest that allow more weight used which means the two are not the same.
But how are you gonna tell me Flys are bad because you can’t use heavy weights, then tell me lateral raises are good even though you can’t use heavy weights on that exercise either.
You don’t understand that these are different muscle groups? You don’t understand that your lateral delts are not worked directly with any other exercise like they are with lateral raises?[/quote]
Except of course the upright row. Exact same movement as a lateral raise, with the elbows bent. However, I have seen some turn this into a deadlift/clean hybrid.