Age Old Question: Size First or Cut First?

Training Bodybuilding
221

PX, et al.

What I think is happening in this discussion is similar to what is going on with politics and other general discussions and society.

Why must the answer be one or the other? 100% one way or 100% the other?

I don’t understand why some can’t comprehend that neither method (ie pure isolation or pure compound) is the answer for everyone all the time. This is true in bodybuilding, lawmaking, project management, cooking, etc.

You (and others) are making a point over and over that no one is saying to explicitly avoid compound movements. You are saying in order to bring lagging parts up to par you must supplement them with direct work, or at least that seems like a reasonable approach.

Perhaps Bent over rows may make one person’s biceps explode, but may leave another’s lagging for whatever reason (genetics, technique, nutrition, etc). In this case, some direct bicep work may be in order (if size is the goal).

What the others are hearing, or want to hear is that you are saying only do isolation and that compound movements don’t work.

If I’m eating 99% healthy but for some reason I have a calcium deficiency, I’m going to supplement calcium.

If my otherwise diverse investment portfolio is generally increasing but one sector is lagging, I’m going to address that directly.

If you’re in the best shape of your life, but your hearing is going, you’re going to get a hearing aid.

I just don’t see why this can’t be the case in bodybuilding.

</semi-off topic but relevant rant>

222

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Why must the answer be one or the other? 100% one way or 100% the other?

I don’t understand why some can’t comprehend that neither method (ie pure isolation or pure compound) is the answer for everyone all the time. This is true in bodybuilding, lawmaking, project management, cooking, etc.

</semi-off topic but relevant rant>[/quote]

I think you summed up the argument quite well.

223

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Your lateral head of your deltoids needs direct work in order to grow to its potential. By AVOIDING the training of them, they will be left behind.

Why would anyone advocate someone train in a way that LEADS to lagging muscle groups in the long run?[/quote]

Absolute Bull.

Dipping, pressing rowing and deadlifting will fill out the shoulders quicker than any lateral raise.

When 99% of the gym population add d’bell laterals, cable laterals etc, they just end up over training.

Also, if they are really pushing on the big exercises they cannot possibly be giving any decent intensity to these small exercises. Surely after heavy dips, push press, clean and press, one arm dumbell press etc you haven’t got enough energy left. Im talking about 99% remember. Save the energy and use it to recover and do next workout.

Oh and X, I trained basic and heavy in my garden with the sun blazing, away from the circus today. Afterwards I’ve enjoyed a huge bbq today, ate loads of cake and choc and I’m in a fab mood and feel strong and look good. Settling for normality maybe.
PS I can easily trap bar deadlift 500.

Slowly, Slowly

224

[quote]azza30 wrote:
When 99% of the gym population add d’bell laterals, cable laterals etc, they just end up over training.
[/quote]

LOL!

225

[quote]azza30 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Your lateral head of your deltoids needs direct work in order to grow to its potential. By AVOIDING the training of them, they will be left behind.

Why would anyone advocate someone train in a way that LEADS to lagging muscle groups in the long run?

Absolute Bull.

Dipping, pressing rowing and deadlifting will fill out the shoulders quicker than any lateral raise.

When 99% of the gym population add d’bell laterals, cable laterals etc, they just end up over training.

Also, if they are really pushing on the big exercises they cannot possibly be giving any decent intensity to these small exercises. Surely after heavy dips, push press, clean and press, one arm dumbell press etc you haven’t got enough energy left. Im talking about 99% remember. Save the energy and use it to recover and do next workout.

Oh and X, I trained basic and heavy in my garden with the sun blazing, away from the circus today. Afterwards I’ve enjoyed a huge bbq today, ate loads of cake and choc and I’m in a fab mood and feel strong and look good. Settling for normality maybe.

PS I can easily trap bar deadlift 500.

Slowly, Slowly

[/quote]

226

Overtraining is a myth.

Being tired and a little burnt out, well thats a little different, and does exist.

The whole idea of overtraining promotes the falsehood that your gains will come to a screeching halt if you dare train through tiredness, soreness, being burnt out, having a busy schedule etc etc etc.

Its ok to back off for a week or two here and there, but its not b/c you are so hardcore that you ‘overtrained’, its just because there is more too life than lifting weights and that gets tiring.

Its funny, back when I played football competitively, I didn’t know what overtraining was and had never heard about cortisol being high after 45 minutes, much less even knew what cortisol was except that we got shots of it if we dislocated something and needed to play bad enough.

All that time, about 4 years straight, we were lifting heavy in low to moderate rep ranges and running sprints, bleachers, calisthenics and of course drills all every day.

4 days a week off season, 6 days a week in season.

Somehow, I never overtrained, I got increasingly stronger, and made more progress in what I did then half the schmoes around here have ever made.

What does that mean? Stop worrying about this overtraining idea. Its on par with working to hard/being too efficient at work.

/Rant.

227

I find it hilarious how the OP was asking simply whether to Bulk or Cut first, but the thread ended up turning into a half-assed flame-war about training strategy.

I realized that CT or any coach for that matter never add to these arguments because they’ve already answered most of these dilemmas in their articles. Thibs pretty much provides both the PROS and CONS of all training styles in this article, which is why I consider his info extremely valid along with his amazing physique:

http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/the_training_strategy_handbook&cr=bodybuilding

A valid point I think worth looking at is a statement made by CT in his First Person article (http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/first_person_christian_thibaudeau&cr=):

“The good thing is that the strength gained from this phase, as well as the neural improvements that come with it, will make my subsequent bodybuilding training all the more effective. I’ve always had my greatest growth spurts when I switched back to a bodybuilding program after a successful strength phase.”

No doubt that their are impressive physiques on both sides of the training spectrum.

On a side note, anybody have an opinion on the whole myogenic tone/tonus thing? (http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/lets_get_nasty&cr=)?

If you look at old school posing routines like that of Zane’s or Arnold’s, their muscles seem move when they flex and they seem rounder and different when relaxed, and they need to “pump-up” before the show.

But if you look at lean strongmen or powerlifters or even bodbuilders like Ronnie Coleman their muscles don’t seem to move when they flex, as if they are in a constant state of flex or muscle activation. Interesting to think about and somewhat related to the argument. In the end it doesn’t really matter i guess if you just want to get hyooooge.

228

[quote]RitesOfSpring wrote:
I find it hilarious how the OP was asking simply whether to Bulk or Cut first, but the thread ended up turning into a half-assed flame-war about training strategy. [/quote]

These discussions rarely stay on track after a handful of posts simply because it could have(and probably was I didn’t read the whole thing) been summed up immediately.

“If you eventually want to be a large muscular individual you should concentrate on size from the get go. It takes years to start standing out in a crowd as a muscular person, months at best to get lean. Where the focus should be is obvious now get to work”

That would have been the end and where’s the fun in that? haha

229

[quote]azza30 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Your lateral head of your deltoids needs direct work in order to grow to its potential. By AVOIDING the training of them, they will be left behind.

Why would anyone advocate someone train in a way that LEADS to lagging muscle groups in the long run?

Absolute Bull.

Dipping, pressing rowing and deadlifting will fill out the shoulders quicker than any lateral raise.

When 99% of the gym population add d’bell laterals, cable laterals etc, they just end up over training.
[/quote]

You realise how stupid this sounds, don’t you?

[quote]azza30 wrote:
PS I can easily trap bar deadlift 500.

[/quote]

Talk is cheap, so is claiming you can do shit without giving anyone so much to rely on other than your word.

230

I guess I can understand why someone might like to do his bicepts over his rear delts but, I completely 100% agree with Prof X when he says that you should try to develop your whole body together. I thought I wasn’t very good as far as size because when I look at myself I’m not content but I seen some of your measurements and I guess I’m not as bad as I thought.

I’m 19 years old, 6’2.

Weigh: 192 lbs
Neck: 17
Chest: 41.5
Arms: 16.5
Forearms: 14
Waist: 32
Hips: 38
Quads: 28
Calves: 17

All in inches.

I’m having a hard time thickening up my abs, someone throw me a tip of how many work outs and how many times a week I should do them. And yes, I do know that for them to show it’s mainly my diet.

231

[quote]Scott M wrote:

RitesOfSpring wrote:
I find it hilarious how the OP was asking simply whether to Bulk or Cut first, but the thread ended up turning into a half-assed flame-war about training strategy.

These discussions rarely stay on track after a handful of posts simply because it could have(and probably was I didn’t read the whole thing) been summed up immediately.

“If you eventually want to be a large muscular individual you should concentrate on size from the get go. It takes years to start standing out in a crowd as a muscular person, months at best to get lean. Where the focus should be is obvious now get to work”

That would have been the end and where’s the fun in that? haha

[/quote]

haha Good post. I guess the way of the internets condones nitpicking and overlooking the obvious. I think once one finds out the obvious they should get to eating, training, and resting.

I’ve been lurking for awhile on these forums and its been my observation that the ones that have the best physiques usually don’t post that frequently or often (even if they’ve been long time members). The biggest guys are very often ones that know jack shit about training or nutrition, mainly because they were handed a program and stuck to it and believed in it and eat by way of common sense. I think I’m close to done with my T-Nation education. I’m off to eat.

232

[quote]azza30 wrote:
<<< Anyway, its nice to see people standing up to X. >>>[/quote]

Absolutely!!!

If only we could get more people to stand up to X just think of all the truckloads of muscle that would be built.

I will be naming my first training book:

        <------ STANDING UP 2 X ------>
                A COMPILATION
       Sooper Dooper Ultra Hip n Groovy
 Never before Heard of Muscle Building Secrets
           For the New Millennium
Gleaned in the Trenches by Those Standing up 2 X
233

[quote]Professor X wrote:

You don’t ignore the fact that they’ve been training for 15 years and have only been using Doggcrap for the past 3.[/quote]

Ok. Wasn’t Jason Wojo a Boxer before he became a bodybuilder?

Wasn’t Trey Brewer a Powerlifter before he became a Bodybuilder?

Who else came from a Powerlifting backround? Ronnie Coleman and Johnnie Jackson.

Fine. Don’t only do compound movements. Don’t only do isolation movements. Use the right exericses and the right training at the right time. From what I’ve seen other people bigger than me do, it seems like in your younger years you’ll progress faster if you make getting big and strong the focus of your program instead of cutting a proportional physique.

There are exceptions to every rule. Frank Zane didn’t do a lot of heavy lifting. Flex Wheeler didn’t do many squats, and he was able to keep his 28’ waist.

I’ll ease up. I came on too strong. But, Professor X, didn’t you see the OP’s post where he planned to do 2 isolation exercises for every compound exercise. Can’t we at least agree that approach is wrong for a beginner? Can we at least agree that more experienced bodybuilders need more isolation exercises than novices?

And you can get plenty of Lateral Head work with Behind the Neck Presses, Upright Rows, and Dumbbell Presses. I’m just sayin’ this to prove that Lateral Raises are not necessary for a beginner.

234

[quote]FightingScott wrote:

And you can get plenty of Lateral Head work with Behind the Neck Presses, Upright Rows, and Dumbbell Presses. I’m just sayin’ this to prove that Lateral Raises are not necessary for a beginner. [/quote]

Lifting weights isn’t necessary for a beginner.

Let me know when you finally build those massive boulders on either side of your neck without ever doing a lateral raise.

235

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
azza30 wrote:
<<< Anyway, its nice to see people standing up to X. >>>

Absolutely!!!

If only we could get more people to stand up to X just think of all the truckloads of muscle that would be built.

I will be naming my first training book:

        <------ STANDING UP 2 X ------>
                A COMPILATION
       Sooper Dooper Ultra Hip n Groovy
 Never before Heard of Muscle Building Secrets
           For the New Millennium
Gleaned in the Trenches by Those Standing up 2 X

[/quote]

I’m getting shirts made up.

236

[quote]Professor X wrote:
FightingScott wrote:

And you can get plenty of Lateral Head work with Behind the Neck Presses, Upright Rows, and Dumbbell Presses. I’m just sayin’ this to prove that Lateral Raises are not necessary for a beginner.

Lifting weights isn’t necessary for a beginner.

Let me know when you finally build those massive boulders on either side of your neck without ever doing a lateral raise.[/quote]

Ok. Done.

(JK)

Seriously though. How can you say that Lateral Raises are cool and that Flys are a waste of time?

237

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Overtraining is a myth.
[/quote]

Overtraining is rare. It’s not a myth. Max out on Deads every day for two weeks. What happens to your numbers? If they go up, give me the magical substance in your blood.

You can put too much stress on the body. You don’t grow if you don’t recover. The body is capable of a great deal. It’s capable of more than what most people think is possible. But you can still run it into the ground. Fatigue still occurs.

238

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I’m getting shirts made up.
[/quote]

Do they come in small?

239

This thread is hilarious. X I agree with you on almost every point you have made. Only with time and knowing your own body will ANYONE make good gains.

I know I am a rookie because I have been only bodybuilding for 5yrs, can’t wait to get more yrs under my belt. Feel like I learn more about my body’s hypertrophy every upcoming year.

240

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
azza30 wrote:
<<< Anyway, its nice to see people standing up to X. >>>

Absolutely!!!

If only we could get more people to stand up to X just think of all the truckloads of muscle that would be built.

I will be naming my first training book:

        <------ STANDING UP 2 X ------>
                A COMPILATION
       Sooper Dooper Ultra Hip n Groovy
 Never before Heard of Muscle Building Secrets
           For the New Millennium
Gleaned in the Trenches by Those Standing up 2 X

I’m getting shirts made up.
[/quote]

Step 1: Take away his video games. He’ll weaken without them.