[quote]FightingScott wrote:
If you can’t do 5 chin-ups, doing curls isn’t going to help you develop equally. [/quote]
Why do you think this? You think doing curls holds BACK progress?
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
If you can’t do 5 chin-ups, doing curls isn’t going to help you develop equally. [/quote]
If your Back and Lats dominate when you do chins, will chins develop you equally?
[quote]
In the very beginning of training, it’s more important to just gain some fucking muscle than it is to develop a proportional physique. Yeah, isolation exercises build muscle. Yeah, lifting weights builds muscle. But Squats are better at building muscle than Curls. This is especially true for a beginner.[/quote]
Why not do both?
Have you EVER had to chose between Squats or Curls? Do you think anyone who has a basic understanding of training has?
[quote]
Besides, you won’t develop a proportional one anyway if you don’t have a solid base. Look at the tiny kids doing a bunch of isolation exercises and look at the star athletes who’ve been diligently working on their power cleans. Who looks more balanced?[/quote]
I’d prefer to build a proportional base rather than worry about my poor Calves, Biceps & Shoulders (as seems to be the common trend) later.
Trying to change Chins into Curls, Dips into Pushdowns or Squats into Leg Extensions by experimenting with different hand/foot placements, tempos etc. is needlessly complicated. Especially when you could just do Curls, Pushdowns & Leg Extensions WITH the Chins, Dips & Squats.
Hence the term “needlessly complicate things with over simplification”.
[quote]
Beginners need a simple program. They don’t need a bunch of reverse-grip pushdowns and elbow-tucked preacher curls to develop proportional arms. They just need some Bench Press, some Chin-ups, and maybe some straight barbell curls.[/quote]
Nobody said anybody needs to do a “bunch” of isolation exercises so that statement is irrelevant.
Some people will need isolation exercises to develop proportional arms, being so closed minded isn’t beneficial to anyone regardless of training experience.
[quote]
Why wouldn’t you want to start off doing Dexter Jackson’s split when you can only Squat 155 and Bench 135? That’s a real easy question to answer: a more basic program will give you better results. [/quote]
Dexter Jackson, also irrelevant.
However, considering what most of us are actually suggesting is more basic than what Dexter Jackson would use I guess we are in agreement.
Again, you should stop thinking in extremes as it usually ends in people employing hyperbole instead of logic.
If they are so weak that they can’t breakdown muscle with compounds AND isolation they’re not likely to be able to breakdown muscle with compounds alone are they?
Only when their conclusions are unfounded absolutes.
Hi.
Sorry not to have been around for a bit. Looks like this debate has really hotted up.
Think I may have provoked it a little as well, so should’ve stuck around more, but i dont have a computer access all the time.
Anyway, its nice to see people standing up to X. I’d like to say, that through personnal experience, I started my training career well, doing virtually full body workouts with basics. Then, after a few years, i started adding exercise’s, reading magazines, splitting up body parts, over complicating diet, and my progress really stalled. I’d change routines around, and get an initial burst of strength and size, but would soon overtrain and/or the gains would diminish. But in my later years, I virtually stopped training bi’s and do a little for tri’s,(these are always close grip bench press or dips though)and I cut down on volume per workout and have gained much better in last few years than for a long time. I sometimes just do a set of curls here and there
A lot of the size gains people see when they adopt a new program is just like having a pump/ or some type of local inflammation. But it is seldom real gains.
And fades away just as quick. That why you get these youngsters constantly asking each other what fab arm routine theyre ar doing now, cos they look so big.
There is this personnal trainer at the gym I had to go to for a while.(thats a bit of an insult to the word gym. I should say, beauty parlour with stupid machines.)
I would patronise him frequently, and tell him he was looking bigger and his guns were pumped. He would tell me virtually every week of a new routine he’d just started. The stupid thing is he was small, and the even smaller guys would ask him and copy him.
So my advise again is always basics first. Look around any gym, watch what they’re doing and ask yourself how many of them sheep following the latest super split look good? Also ask yourself how many beginners give up through sheer frustration as to not making the gains they expect from the over complication of our sport. Just ask the gym what the turnover is of members. (and for the idiots that would come back with well no one left my hardcore gym and theyre hooge, Im talking about the fitness first type gym)
Slowly Slowly
[quote]azza30 wrote:
Hi.
Sorry not to have been around for a bit. Looks like this debate has really hotted up.
Think I may have provoked it a little as well, so should’ve stuck around more, but i dont have a computer access all the time.
Anyway, its nice to see people standing up to X. I’d like to say, that through personnal experience, I started my training career well, doing virtually full body workouts with basics. Then, after a few years, i started adding exercise’s, reading magazines, splitting up body parts, over complicating diet, and my progress really stalled. I’d change routines around, and get an initial burst of strength and size, but would soon overtrain and/or the gains would diminish. But in my later years, I virtually stopped training bi’s and do a little for tri’s,(these are always close grip bench press or dips though)and I cut down on volume per workout and have gained much better in last few years than for a long time. I sometimes just do a set of curls here and there
A lot of the size gains people see when they adopt a new program is just like having a pump/ or some type of local inflammation. But it is seldom real gains.
And fades away just as quick. That why you get these youngsters constantly asking each other what fab arm routine theyre ar doing now, cos they look so big.
There is this personnal trainer at the gym I had to go to for a while.(thats a bit of an insult to the word gym. I should say, beauty parlour with stupid machines.)
I would patronise him frequently, and tell him he was looking bigger and his guns were pumped. He would tell me virtually every week of a new routine he’d just started. The stupid thing is he was small, and the even smaller guys would ask him and copy him.
So my advise again is always basics first. Look around any gym, watch what they’re doing and ask yourself how many of them sheep following the latest super split look good? Also ask yourself how many beginners give up through sheer frustration as to not making the gains they expect from the over complication of our sport. Just ask the gym what the turnover is of members. (and for the idiots that would come back with well no one left my hardcore gym and theyre hooge, Im talking about the fitness first type gym)
Slowly Slowly[/quote]
LOL. This thread you started:
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2129306
puts things into perspective.
You are also the guy who couldn’t name any top current competitors yet seemed to think he knew what all of professional bodybuilding currently needs.
Now you bless us with
[quote]A lot of the size gains people see when they adopt a new program is just like having a pump/ or some type of local inflammation. But it is seldom real gains.
[/quote]
Seldom “real gains”? A pump can go away within an hour after lifting. Are you stating that a pump is going to somehow last much longer than that and take the place of gains in muscle mass?
You are clueless and your posts have been ridiculous…yet here you are giving advice.
Maybe you should stick to chocolate.
I kind of view iso excercises like I do protein powder or good supplements…
Can I live without them? Sure?
But will my physique, gains, and rate of growth be optimal? No.
Compounds are good.
Compounds+‘Supplements’ are better.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
If you can’t do 5 chin-ups, doing curls isn’t going to help you develop equally.
Why do you think this? You think doing curls holds BACK progress?[/quote]
If you can’t do 5 chin-ups, doing curls is not time well spent.
If you can’t do something as basic as completing 5 chin-ups, then you’ve got other problems more important than getting bigger arms.
Now tell me, is a 5-day bodypart split always the right answer?
Just tell me the right answer. Train like a pro bodybuilder from day 1? Is that it? If that’s it just say so.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
If you can’t do 5 chin-ups, doing curls is not time well spent. [/quote]
Gee, it IS if you want bigger muscles in your arms.
It is like you can’t even grasp the concept of actually training the muscle groups independently.
Why would I rely on my back training for my BICEPS DEVELOPEMENT? Why would I do squats…for my BICEPS?
You are making no sense and are just repeating the crap used to sell training routines to newbies.
You do realize that bigger and stronger biceps would help with those chins? I mean, you do understand this, right?
[quote]
If you can’t do something as basic as completing 5 chin-ups, then you’ve got other problems more important than getting bigger arms. [/quote]
Wow. Yes, you have problems like weak back and biceps muscles…therefore, you train both if you want them stronger. This usually leads to bigger and stronger back AND biceps muscles.
In fact, while you keep claiming what people shouldn’t do, this is exactly how I started. I am glad no one was spreading the crap you are now when I was a beginner. I would have seen much less progress.
[quote]
Now tell me, is a 5-day bodypart split always the right answer?
Just tell me the right answer. Train like a pro bodybuilder from day 1? Is that it? If that’s it just say so. [/quote]
You are so turned around it isn’t funny. This isn’t about “training like a pro bodybuilder”. This is about the simple FACT that most of the bigger guys on this site and in most gyms AND on most stages across the country built their size without saying, “let’s avoid isolation exercises or make them as minimal a part of training as possible”.
Therefore, the answer to your question is YES, for most beginners IF THE GOAL IS TO ACTUALLY LOOK ANYTHING LIKE A BODYBUILDER, you should be in the gym 4-5 times a week and training EVERY FUCKING THING.
That means squats, dips, chins and bench press…ALONG WITH biceps curls, lat pull downs and triceps extensions.
I want to see PICTURES of those who are now HUGE because of avoiding isolation exercises.
Why is that such a difficult request? Why do so many of you ignore that PROGRESS is the most important factor here, not theory.
IQ, when I told the OP he was doing too many isolation exercises the VERY FIRST TIME
I told him he could do some direct arm work but should otherwise focus on compound movements.
Almost everyone ignored this by choice.
Beginners don’t need to worry about lagging bodyparts because everything is lagging. What they need to worry about is putting on as much muscle as possible. What’s the best way to do that? Train with mostly compound movements and some heavy arm work like Skull-Crushers and Curls. Maybe just Curls.
Beginners are not going to squeeze out that extra 1/128th of an inch during training by doing some Leg Extensions. They would be much better off just squatting more. If their too tired to squat, then they can do some Glute-Ham Raises or some Lunges. If they don’t have enough energy to do those assistance exercises, then they’re done for the day and any more time spent in the weight room is probably going to over-tax (not overtrain - lets not go their) their tiny bodies for no reason. Or it’s just a waste of time.
Your example about calves is completely missing my point on purpose. If you’re a novice lifter, your calves are going to suck no matter what you do. Aesthetic calves shouldn’t be a concern if you can’t do a double bodyweight Deadlift. Besides, if you’re Squatting, doing Glute-Ham Raises, doing Power Cleans, Sprinting, Jumping, and maybe some Tire Flipping then your calves won’t exactly be neglected.
Rack Pull, Squat, Front Squat, Bench, Incline Bench, Deadlift, Press, Power Clean, Push Press, Push-Jerk, Close-Grip Bench, Chin-up, Dumbbell Row, Dumbbell Bench, Dumbbell Press, Glute-Ham Raise, Back Extension, Romanian Deadlift, Good-Morning, Dumbbell Pullover, Barbell Curl, Skull-Crusher - This is all a Novice lifter needs. A program made out of these exercises is what will work best for a beginner.
Once they’re not frail and small, then they can start worrying about lagging bodyparts and symmetry. But if they train correctly using these basic exercises, then they’ll probably look pretty symmetrical anyway. This is the way many athletes train. Their physiques are proportional enough to be desired throughout the world. Sandow and George Hack developed balanced physiques without a bunch of flies and extensions.
look who’s back. im not here for advice, im not here to provoke any further argument (or i just possibly might).
you all make very good points. and even though i may be far from the biggest or most muscular guy here, i must say that i HAVE made progress ever since i started weightlifting. just like prof x said, you cant ignore progress.
what i found that has worked quite well for me is to “cycle” through my isolation moves. i may not include iso moves for 3-4 weeks, and then after that i’ll include some for 3-4 weeks. i’ll go back and forth like that.
the time off makes my arms more receptive to direct stimulation via iso exercises.
Didn’t this guy (Dave Gulledge, and nearly all powerlifters/strongmen/oly lifters)avoid isolation exercises to some extent?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Therefore, the answer to your question is YES, for most beginners IF THE GOAL IS TO ACTUALLY LOOK ANYTHING LIKE A BODYBUILDER, you should be in the gym 4-5 times a week and training EVERY FUCKING THING.
That means squats, dips, chins and bench press…ALONG WITH biceps curls, lat pull downs and triceps extensions.
I want to see PICTURES of those who are now HUGE because of avoiding isolation exercises.
Why is that such a difficult request? Why do so many of you ignore that PROGRESS is the most important factor here, not theory.[/quote]
Based on nothing more than my opinion; I’m guessing the disdain for isolation movements comes from:
-
Present day fitness media continuous need to present various training alternatives to keep their readership’s attention.
-
Personal trainers promising equal or better results in a fraction of the time their competitors promise; therefore exercises have to be dropped.
-
Modern western societies obsession with time management combined with our burning desire for instant gratification.
On the other hand if you look at how the average joe trains at the gym (ie: almost entirely with isolation machines) I can understand why many trainers try to up sell “compound exercises” and belittle “isolation exercises”. They’re doing so to drive home the message to casual trainees, who are lazy and reluctant to change their ways, that compound exercises are REALLY important and to stop avoiding them!
This extreme approach is needed because many people dislike ‘shades of gray’ and prefer things to be simplified to ‘black or white’. The downside to this teaching approach is that you get guys who now think you should only do compound exercises.
I can also see these trainees’ point of view. Chances are they were the average joes doing only isolation exercises prior to going 100% compound and made very little progress. And chances are once they made the switch the gains started coming.
Their conclusion: Isolation PROGRAM = no gains, Compound PROGRAM = gains. Case closed!
Unfortunately I think they were to quick to jump to conclusions. While the above may be true, it seems they never considered:
100% Isolation PROGRAM = no gains (or minimal)
100% Compound PROGRAM = good gains
Compound + isolation = better gains
Isolation exercises added to a regiment various HEAVY compound exercises have a synergistic effect (1+1=3) that cannot be matched by compound programs alone.
Final note: Lou Schuler stated in the book NROL that even though he was Editor in Chief (if I recall correctly the title) for fitness magazines for over 20 years his leg routine consisted entirely of leg curls and extensions. Only once he was persuaded to switch to squats and deadlifts did he start making noticeable gains. That’s why he’s convinced compound was the way to go.
The entire time I thought to myself:
-
How sad that he’s the man who decided for all those years what so many young trainees learned about training.
-
Will it take him another 20 years to realize that he’d make even better gains if he combined both compound and isolation?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Therefore, the answer to your question is YES, for most beginners IF THE GOAL IS TO ACTUALLY LOOK ANYTHING LIKE A BODYBUILDER, you should be in the gym 4-5 times a week and training EVERY FUCKING THING.
[/quote]
So, if I want to look like a bodybuilder, I should do a bodybuilding split. Makes sense. It’s what everyone else is doing. So I should do it. UNLESS I’M A RANK NOVICE.
There’s a difference between a 4-day upper-lower split where you train muscles twice a week and a 5-day bodypart split where you train muscles once a week and have an an entire day dedicated to arms.
I will agree that a beginner could be in the gym 4-days a week training with an upper-lower split or a push-pull split so that they train muscle groups twice a week.
But having a beginner train a bodypart only once a week and having a day dedicated to arms is silly.
From all that I’ve read. Frank Zane seems to be the staunchest advocate of totally avoiding heavy lifting and major compound exercises. Frank even advises avoiding SQUATS as they “thicken up” the waist. Frank built an amazing physique by training his own way and what worked for HIM.
[quote]RitesOfSpring wrote:
Didn’t this guy (Dave Gulledge, and nearly all powerlifters/strongmen/oly lifters)avoid isolation exercises to some extent?[/quote]
You honestly think he got into that condition by avoiding isolation exercises?
I am having a hard time believing this debate is even happening.
Who honestly believes that training a particular muscle group makes it smaller and weaker?
How many of YOU, as in those typing, have gotten anywhere near that size by avoiding isolation movements?
On a bodybuilding site, why are there so few here like that?
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
So, if I want to look like a bodybuilder, I should do a bodybuilding split. Makes sense. It’s what everyone else is doing. So I should do it. UNLESS I’M A RANK NOVICE.
[/quote]
Why? What are you basing this conclusion on? Your own massive progress? That of those you have trained?
I WAS a rank novice who started using a body part split. Bauer on this site was a rank novice who started using a body part split.
So again, who HERE is near that size while AVOIDING things like biceps curls, triceps pressdowns or any other exercise that actually targets specific muscle groups?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I want to see PICTURES of those who are now HUGE because of avoiding isolation exercises.
Why is that such a difficult request? Why do so many of you ignore that PROGRESS is the most important factor here, not theory.[/quote]
You’re the one ignoring that progress is the most important factor. Using MOSTLY compound movements yields the best gains.
But go ahead and just tell everyone that I’ve been saying beginners should never, even do isolation exercises. Continue to flat out lie. Here’s the picture you asked for of someone who doesn’t do a bunch of isolation exercises to hit muscles from all angles.
If you’re familiar with Jason Wojo, you’ll know that he does DC Training. The only Isolation Exercises commonly used in DC Training are for Forearms, Biceps, Calves, and Occasionally Hamstrings. Everything else is Heavy Compound Exercises.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Beginners don’t need to worry about lagging bodyparts because everything is lagging.
[/quote]
Body parts will be lagging even more if they ignore them.
Your lateral head of your deltoids needs direct work in order to grow to its potential. By AVOIDING the training of them, they will be left behind.
Why would anyone advocate someone train in a way that LEADS to lagging muscle groups in the long run?
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
You’re the one ignoring that progress is the most important factor. Using MOSTLY compound movements yields the best gains.
But go ahead and just tell everyone that I’ve been saying beginners should never, even do isolation exercises. Continue to flat out lie. Here’s the picture you asked for of someone who doesn’t do a bunch of isolation exercises to hit muscles from all angles.
If you’re familiar with Jason Wojo, you’ll know that he does DC Training. The only Isolation Exercises commonly used in DC Training are for Forearms, Biceps, Calves, and Occasionally Hamstrings. Everything else is Heavy Compound Exercises. [/quote]
WHO is telling people to avoid “compound” exercises?
The guy who is doing EVERYTHING will beat the progress of the guy ignoring body parts.
It doesn’t require a gimmick or some saying like, “do 80% compound”.
None of that is needed.
If you want to get big, YES, you do squats, YES, you do bench press. You ALSO do biceps curls and you ALSO do lateral raises.
Why complicate this anymore than “train everything”?
The guy you posted does NOT ignore muscle groups. I also seriously doubt that if a muscle group were lagging, that he would continue to avoid training it directly.
Do you have some fantasy going on in your head where all we are doing in the gym is curls?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
RitesOfSpring wrote:
Didn’t this guy (Dave Gulledge, and nearly all powerlifters/strongmen/oly lifters)avoid isolation exercises to some extent?
You honestly think he got into that condition by avoiding isolation exercises?
I am having a hard time believing this debate is even happening.
Who honestly believes that training a particular muscle group makes it smaller and weaker?
How many of YOU, as in those typing, have gotten anywhere near that size by avoiding isolation movements?
On a bodybuilding site, why are there so few here like that?[/quote]
No I don’t. In fact I don’t know shit. I love this thread though a lot of good info and opinions.
I think this needs to be repeated again:
[quote] jstreet0204 wrote:
Point being, there are different ways to get big, but taking options off the table because of some arbitrary guildlines may mean taking off the options that work best for you. [/quote]
To reiterate what he said. I think its stupid to be an extreme advocate of any training philosophy, your no better than a militant athiest, islamist, or those damn evangelicals. To be close minded is the stupidest thing IMO. BUT if you want to be a bodybuilder its usually advised that you train like one.
However, right now I do think that building a base of strength in “bang for your buck” compound movements, can only help to get really huge in the long run. CT to me is the best coach in that he has “a best of both worlds approach”. By becoming stronger and more adept at recruiting the CNS, the better you can benefit from a split program later on IMO.
It’s really great how everyone here will defend their opinion to the death though, and actually truly CARE what others think.
Also, lifters like David Henry who also use Doggcrap did NOT start training that way.
That is like watching how I eat today and jumping to some conclusion that this is how I ate from the start.
You look at their entire history of training.
You don’t ignore the fact that they’ve been training for 15 years and have only been using Doggcrap for the past 3.