AFC Guide to Women

Off Topic
81

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
So glad I’m married!

That women stuff seems so very, very complicated…

I can still remember way back when simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect was a pretty good way to find a woman of similar caliber. [/quote]

I don’t know, because that “simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect” thing seems to be working a charm for me, even in modern days. I have someone well able to provide, who makes my toes curl and who is proving to be a very good friend indeed. I’d rather spend time with him than anyone else, though I enjoy my girlfriends and workmates too.

[/quote]

Do you think in this day and age, that a man in his 20’s would be able to exhibit the same traits? I highly doubt it. PEOPLE evolve (assuming a positive trajectory is established early enough). A man in his 20’s is LITERALLY “half” the man he will become in his 40’s - in personality, experience, assets, etc… His market value goes up exponentially.

A woman’s reproductive/market value goes DOWN as she gets older. Not saying there aren’t ANY “MILF’s” out there, but often times a woman who is in “decline” is at odds with how to deal with it and is often a bitter, castrating bitch. There are of course exceptions to this.

Integrity and self respect are important, but it’s not something that many people have at a younger age these days. Again, there are exceptions! But the pickings are slim.[/quote]

I don’t know what to say, AC, except that my experience has been very different from what you describe. I only date high earning men relative to my location. The only exception was the creepy hunter guy - a rebound from Tim, who was in local government here and who’d previously been on faculty at a US News top 25 college.

I only date fit men. Not buff, though the creepy hunter guy was that, but in decent shape and athletically inclined. Men who have a sport and practice it. Doesn’t matter what it is. Hockey could lose some weight, but he’s middle aged and can and does lead an active recreational life.

All the men I went out with were at the height of their earning power, age wise. I had at least two dates with a geologist, a financier (the smart guy I didn’t like kissing), a software designer, doctor, an architect, and Hockey, who is an engineer - all men who were in decent - very good shape.

I’m still bewildered by the crazy good luck I had. I’m certainly on the decline and am not beautiful. But here I am. I can only make of it that men don’t all want what you want. Well, clearly the ones who want me don’t.

Chushin reports that back in the olden days he had the same experience I had last year, and from the other side of the aisle (he’s a boy and was in his youth, presumably).

What do you make of that? I’m asking honestly. My experience has been so far removed from my expectation given all I’d read about women my age on these pages.

Edit: “I only date high earning men” sounds avaricious. I select for intelligence and earnings tend to follow. Money isn’t something I select for, though debt-free became important to me after Tim because I decided debt speaks to impulsiveness and poor self-control and I was sick of men with those issues.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve had women who “had things together” pursue me, but after a spending time with them, I didn’t find a “spark”… And for the most part, they were what I would call “average” physically and “OK” in the face, not head turners by any means. The pretty ones almost always seem to have issues. My ex was BEAUTIFUL. I mean she used to be a model in her country. Made good money in the fashion industry. But she believed in ghosts and was completely batshit crazy. Fun to fuck, though. But that Latin temper was legendary. I just got tired of dealing with her shit (and paying for her Gucci bags and $500 shoes that she only wore once).

I just don’t feel that I’m ready to compromise on physical appearance just yet. Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…

82

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I don’t know that this is the answer - how does a stranger know I won’t cheat? [/quote]
Well they don’t. They figure that out as they start dating you, and it becomes apparent as they learn about your personality and values. At which point they would feel very comfortable allowing things to move forward. I mean that’s true of literally everything. If men only pursued women who they were certain would be faithful, good in bed, good with money, intelligent, interesting, bla bla bla then nobody would ever date anyone lol. You never know anything when you first jump in, but as you figure things out you decide whether to get more serious or not.

83

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

Why on earth would she not choose someone who can give her all three elements - provider, intimacy/friendship, and passion? She would have to be broken not to want all three in one package.

[/quote]

I would chose a Citation X with two pilots, but I can only reasonably afford a King Air with one.

Same quandary, really.[/quote]

Your analogy is confusing me. Are you saying two pilots is better = two men/women are better?

Are you with me or against me? lol
[/quote]

Sorry, a little background:

a Citation X is a business jet and probably the best jet a private person can get. It is not only very expensive to buy, it is very expensive to operate (fuel and two pilots).

A 350 King Air is a twin turbo prop that is very nice, not ridiculously expensive, and very cheap (comparatively) to operate because it sips fuel and only requires one pilot.

I would love to have a Citation X, thought about it, but just can’t justify it. In fact, if things dipped, it could break me.

The King Air, in contrast, was no big deal and I could pay cash, etc. I could even fly it myself, if inclined for some reason.

Now, back to your post:

[quote]
Why on earth would she not choose someone who can give her all three elements - provider, intimacy/friendship, and passion? She would have to be broken not to want all three in one package.[/quote]

Well, sure, I agree.

But, to quote the Immortal Bard Mic Jagger “you can’t always get what you want. But if you try sometime you find You get what you need.”

In short, sometimes you can’t afford the Citation, and “settle” for the King Air.

84

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
A 350 King Air is a twin turbo prop that is very nice, not ridiculously expensive

The King Air, in contrast, was no big deal and I could pay cash, etc.
[/quote]
Aren’t those like 3 million bucks? What is it you do again?

85

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
So glad I’m married!

That women stuff seems so very, very complicated…

I can still remember way back when simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect was a pretty good way to find a woman of similar caliber. [/quote]

I don’t know, because that “simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect” thing seems to be working a charm for me, even in modern days. I have someone well able to provide, who makes my toes curl and who is proving to be a very good friend indeed. I’d rather spend time with him than anyone else, though I enjoy my girlfriends and workmates too.

[/quote]

Do you think in this day and age, that a man in his 20’s would be able to exhibit the same traits? I highly doubt it. PEOPLE evolve (assuming a positive trajectory is established early enough). A man in his 20’s is LITERALLY “half” the man he will become in his 40’s - in personality, experience, assets, etc… His market value goes up exponentially.

A woman’s reproductive/market value goes DOWN as she gets older. Not saying there aren’t ANY “MILF’s” out there, but often times a woman who is in “decline” is at odds with how to deal with it and is often a bitter, castrating bitch. There are of course exceptions to this.

Integrity and self respect are important, but it’s not something that many people have at a younger age these days. Again, there are exceptions! But the pickings are slim.[/quote]

I don’t know what to say, AC, except that my experience has been very different from what you describe. I only date high earning men relative to my location. The only exception was the creepy hunter guy - a rebound from Tim, who was in local government here and who’d previously been on faculty at a US News top 25 college.

I only date fit men. Not buff, though the creepy hunter guy was that, but in decent shape and athletically inclined. Men who have a sport and practice it. Doesn’t matter what it is. Hockey could lose some weight, but he’s middle aged and can and does lead an active recreational life.

All the men I went out with were at the height of their earning power, age wise. I had at least two dates with a geologist, a financier (the smart guy I didn’t like kissing), a software designer, doctor, an architect, and Hockey, who is an engineer - all men who were in decent - very good shape.

I’m still bewildered by the crazy good luck I had. I’m certainly on the decline and am not beautiful. But here I am. I can only make of it that men don’t all want what you want. Well, clearly the ones who want me don’t.

Chushin reports that back in the olden days he had the same experience I had last year, and from the other side of the aisle (he’s a boy and was in his youth, presumably).

What do you make of that? I’m asking honestly. My experience has been so far removed from my expectation given all I’d read about women my age on these pages.

Edit: “I only date high earning men” sounds avaricious. I select for intelligence and earnings tend to follow. Money isn’t something I select for, though debt-free became important to me after Tim because I decided debt speaks to impulsiveness and poor self-control and I was sick of men with those issues.[/quote]

Your ability to date but not lock down high quality men proves nothing. Either you dumped them (which means their quality is questionable), or they dumped you which fails to prove your point that an 8.5 aught to be able to lock down a high quality man.
[/quote]

I’m not sure how to answer this. It’s so removed from anything I’ve said, it’s hard to organize a defense. I’ll make a list, like Chushin, since he’s a man and as such probably clearer in his communications, since I am by-God-determined that my point [sic] be proved.

  1. Lock-down is complete, as far as I can tell. I’m in a relationship with the last of the listed guys I went out with: a bio-engineer who plays hockey, snowboards, etc, and with whom I enjoy the very best minutes of my every week. Apparently he feels the same way. We’re buying a house together.

  2. “Dumped” is a very strong word for going out with someone a couple of times and not entering into a relationship, sexual or otherwise. At a certain level surface quality is assumed and the question becomes whether being with him brings me joy. He is presumably answering the same question for himself. I seemed to have been the one to pull out, but that is probably only because men are more willing to have a casual sexual relationship than I am. I’m sure I would have been dumped more often if I hadn’t eliminated men I didn’t like enough to have sex with.

  3. I have not claimed to be an 8.5, and in fact claimed otherwise I believe (“not beautiful”).

  4. I also recall the bit about an 8.5 being that she can get a powerful, wealthy man. Personally, those attributes do not constitute “quality” to me. Integrity, self-control, kindness, and intelligence do. (These attributes are associated with success in life, which may lead to confusion.)

At any rate, here was my exact point: quality men as I define them do not universally seek 8.5s in my experience. Some of them seem surprisingly interested in becoming “locked down” with someone like me instead.

Which is the opposite of the point you accused me of not proving.

[/quote]
Honestly, it sounds like things are working out for you and I’m glad. Obviously compatibility is not a single axis problem.

If an 8.5 is willing to commit to a stable, well-employed guy who takes care of himself and makes her laugh, then she’ll probably find it. The point is, if she wants a multimillionaire who looks great and has skills in bed, she’ll be harder pressed to lock down all three of those things. It’s really a question of whether you chose to take the most you can get in one package or try to get the best of all worlds in a couple packages.

86

In compliance with Pushharders ordinance regarding Aerosmith themed thread songs:

edited

87

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
So glad I’m married!

That women stuff seems so very, very complicated…

I can still remember way back when simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect was a pretty good way to find a woman of similar caliber. [/quote]

I don’t know, because that “simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect” thing seems to be working a charm for me, even in modern days. I have someone well able to provide, who makes my toes curl and who is proving to be a very good friend indeed. I’d rather spend time with him than anyone else, though I enjoy my girlfriends and workmates too.

[/quote]

Do you think in this day and age, that a man in his 20’s would be able to exhibit the same traits? I highly doubt it. PEOPLE evolve (assuming a positive trajectory is established early enough). A man in his 20’s is LITERALLY “half” the man he will become in his 40’s - in personality, experience, assets, etc… His market value goes up exponentially.

A woman’s reproductive/market value goes DOWN as she gets older. Not saying there aren’t ANY “MILF’s” out there, but often times a woman who is in “decline” is at odds with how to deal with it and is often a bitter, castrating bitch. There are of course exceptions to this.

Integrity and self respect are important, but it’s not something that many people have at a younger age these days. Again, there are exceptions! But the pickings are slim.[/quote]

I don’t know what to say, AC, except that my experience has been very different from what you describe. I only date high earning men relative to my location. The only exception was the creepy hunter guy - a rebound from Tim, who was in local government here and who’d previously been on faculty at a US News top 25 college.

I only date fit men. Not buff, though the creepy hunter guy was that, but in decent shape and athletically inclined. Men who have a sport and practice it. Doesn’t matter what it is. Hockey could lose some weight, but he’s middle aged and can and does lead an active recreational life.

All the men I went out with were at the height of their earning power, age wise. I had at least two dates with a geologist, a financier (the smart guy I didn’t like kissing), a software designer, doctor, an architect, and Hockey, who is an engineer - all men who were in decent - very good shape.

I’m still bewildered by the crazy good luck I had. I’m certainly on the decline and am not beautiful. But here I am. I can only make of it that men don’t all want what you want. Well, clearly the ones who want me don’t.

Chushin reports that back in the olden days he had the same experience I had last year, and from the other side of the aisle (he’s a boy and was in his youth, presumably).

What do you make of that? I’m asking honestly. My experience has been so far removed from my expectation given all I’d read about women my age on these pages.

Edit: “I only date high earning men” sounds avaricious. I select for intelligence and earnings tend to follow. Money isn’t something I select for, though debt-free became important to me after Tim because I decided debt speaks to impulsiveness and poor self-control and I was sick of men with those issues.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve had women who “had things together” pursue me, but after a spending time with them, I didn’t find a “spark”… And for the most part, they were what I would call “average” physically and “OK” in the face, not head turners by any means. The pretty ones almost always seem to have issues. My ex was BEAUTIFUL. I mean she used to be a model in her country. Made good money in the fashion industry. But she believed in ghosts and was completely batshit crazy. Fun to fuck, though. But that Latin temper was legendary. I just got tired of dealing with her shit (and paying for her Gucci bags and $500 shoes that she only wore once).

I just don’t feel that I’m ready to compromise on physical appearance just yet. Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]

I’m not suggesting that you compromise anything, AC. Truly. Just noting that my experience has been different - as well as consistent across my life span to this point. If anything my SMV seems to have increased, I assume because women in shape to the degree I am are rarer past the twenties. Men seem more anxious to “lock it in,” perhaps because they’ve had experience with women who let themselves go. But there has never been a time when guys didn’t want to be in relationships with me, and I’m never the pursuer. Not for dates, not for relationships, not for next steps of any sort.

If I had to identify what it is men see in me I would choose the word “appealing.” Nice looking rather than beautiful, bright, sunny disposition with occasional flashes of temper, funny in an edgy/outrageous way, and adventurous. People like being around me. Because I can come off as prim, I think men like the contrast of my wild side, which is just under the surface. I surprise people, and they like that. I assume that’s where they find spark. Well, along with my body. I think I’m very lucky in “appealing.” Beautiful comes with all sorts of baggage.

88

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
So glad I’m married!

That women stuff seems so very, very complicated…

I can still remember way back when simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect was a pretty good way to find a woman of similar caliber. [/quote]

I don’t know, because that “simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect” thing seems to be working a charm for me, even in modern days. I have someone well able to provide, who makes my toes curl and who is proving to be a very good friend indeed. I’d rather spend time with him than anyone else, though I enjoy my girlfriends and workmates too.

[/quote]

Do you think in this day and age, that a man in his 20’s would be able to exhibit the same traits? I highly doubt it. PEOPLE evolve (assuming a positive trajectory is established early enough). A man in his 20’s is LITERALLY “half” the man he will become in his 40’s - in personality, experience, assets, etc… His market value goes up exponentially.

A woman’s reproductive/market value goes DOWN as she gets older. Not saying there aren’t ANY “MILF’s” out there, but often times a woman who is in “decline” is at odds with how to deal with it and is often a bitter, castrating bitch. There are of course exceptions to this.

Integrity and self respect are important, but it’s not something that many people have at a younger age these days. Again, there are exceptions! But the pickings are slim.[/quote]

I don’t know what to say, AC, except that my experience has been very different from what you describe. I only date high earning men relative to my location. The only exception was the creepy hunter guy - a rebound from Tim, who was in local government here and who’d previously been on faculty at a US News top 25 college.

I only date fit men. Not buff, though the creepy hunter guy was that, but in decent shape and athletically inclined. Men who have a sport and practice it. Doesn’t matter what it is. Hockey could lose some weight, but he’s middle aged and can and does lead an active recreational life.

All the men I went out with were at the height of their earning power, age wise. I had at least two dates with a geologist, a financier (the smart guy I didn’t like kissing), a software designer, doctor, an architect, and Hockey, who is an engineer - all men who were in decent - very good shape.

I’m still bewildered by the crazy good luck I had. I’m certainly on the decline and am not beautiful. But here I am. I can only make of it that men don’t all want what you want. Well, clearly the ones who want me don’t.

Chushin reports that back in the olden days he had the same experience I had last year, and from the other side of the aisle (he’s a boy and was in his youth, presumably).

What do you make of that? I’m asking honestly. My experience has been so far removed from my expectation given all I’d read about women my age on these pages.

Edit: “I only date high earning men” sounds avaricious. I select for intelligence and earnings tend to follow. Money isn’t something I select for, though debt-free became important to me after Tim because I decided debt speaks to impulsiveness and poor self-control and I was sick of men with those issues.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve had women who “had things together” pursue me, but after a spending time with them, I didn’t find a “spark”… And for the most part, they were what I would call “average” physically and “OK” in the face, not head turners by any means. The pretty ones almost always seem to have issues. My ex was BEAUTIFUL. I mean she used to be a model in her country. Made good money in the fashion industry. But she believed in ghosts and was completely batshit crazy. Fun to fuck, though. But that Latin temper was legendary. I just got tired of dealing with her shit (and paying for her Gucci bags and $500 shoes that she only wore once).

I just don’t feel that I’m ready to compromise on physical appearance just yet. Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]

I’m not suggesting that you compromise anything, AC. Truly. Just noting that my experience has been different - as well as consistent across my life span to this point. If anything my SMV seems to have increased, I assume because women in shape to the degree I am are rarer past the twenties. Men seem more anxious to “lock it in,” perhaps because they’ve had experience with women who let themselves go. But there has never been a time when guys didn’t want to be in relationships with me, and I’m never the pursuer. Not for dates, not for relationships, not for next steps of any sort.

If I had to identify what it is men see in me I would choose the word “appealing.” Nice looking rather than beautiful, bright, sunny disposition with occasional flashes of temper, funny in an edgy/outrageous way, and adventurous. People like being around me. Because I can come off as prim, I think men like the contrast of my wild side, which is just under the surface. I surprise people, and they like that. I assume that’s where they find spark. Well, along with my body. I think I’m very lucky in “appealing.” Beautiful comes with all sorts of baggage.
[/quote]

What I think what you are experiencing is that your relative SMV is increasing.

There is no way to put this any less bluntly, but if your peers (that are on the market) slowly turn into entitled neurotic sluts or asexual mommies or are what can only be described as obese, well yeah, your relative market value rises.

Does not mean that it has risen in absolute terms, male sexual attraction follows female fertility and its decline with a brutal efficiency.

And yes, female beauty comes with baggage, some need several beta orbiters to carry it all around!

89

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
So glad I’m married!

That women stuff seems so very, very complicated…

I can still remember way back when simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect was a pretty good way to find a woman of similar caliber. [/quote]

I don’t know, because that “simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect” thing seems to be working a charm for me, even in modern days. I have someone well able to provide, who makes my toes curl and who is proving to be a very good friend indeed. I’d rather spend time with him than anyone else, though I enjoy my girlfriends and workmates too.

[/quote]

Do you think in this day and age, that a man in his 20’s would be able to exhibit the same traits? I highly doubt it. PEOPLE evolve (assuming a positive trajectory is established early enough). A man in his 20’s is LITERALLY “half” the man he will become in his 40’s - in personality, experience, assets, etc… His market value goes up exponentially.

A woman’s reproductive/market value goes DOWN as she gets older. Not saying there aren’t ANY “MILF’s” out there, but often times a woman who is in “decline” is at odds with how to deal with it and is often a bitter, castrating bitch. There are of course exceptions to this.

Integrity and self respect are important, but it’s not something that many people have at a younger age these days. Again, there are exceptions! But the pickings are slim.[/quote]

I don’t know what to say, AC, except that my experience has been very different from what you describe. I only date high earning men relative to my location. The only exception was the creepy hunter guy - a rebound from Tim, who was in local government here and who’d previously been on faculty at a US News top 25 college.

I only date fit men. Not buff, though the creepy hunter guy was that, but in decent shape and athletically inclined. Men who have a sport and practice it. Doesn’t matter what it is. Hockey could lose some weight, but he’s middle aged and can and does lead an active recreational life.

All the men I went out with were at the height of their earning power, age wise. I had at least two dates with a geologist, a financier (the smart guy I didn’t like kissing), a software designer, doctor, an architect, and Hockey, who is an engineer - all men who were in decent - very good shape.

I’m still bewildered by the crazy good luck I had. I’m certainly on the decline and am not beautiful. But here I am. I can only make of it that men don’t all want what you want. Well, clearly the ones who want me don’t.

Chushin reports that back in the olden days he had the same experience I had last year, and from the other side of the aisle (he’s a boy and was in his youth, presumably).

What do you make of that? I’m asking honestly. My experience has been so far removed from my expectation given all I’d read about women my age on these pages.

Edit: “I only date high earning men” sounds avaricious. I select for intelligence and earnings tend to follow. Money isn’t something I select for, though debt-free became important to me after Tim because I decided debt speaks to impulsiveness and poor self-control and I was sick of men with those issues.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve had women who “had things together” pursue me, but after a spending time with them, I didn’t find a “spark”… And for the most part, they were what I would call “average” physically and “OK” in the face, not head turners by any means. The pretty ones almost always seem to have issues. My ex was BEAUTIFUL. I mean she used to be a model in her country. Made good money in the fashion industry. But she believed in ghosts and was completely batshit crazy. Fun to fuck, though. But that Latin temper was legendary. I just got tired of dealing with her shit (and paying for her Gucci bags and $500 shoes that she only wore once).

I just don’t feel that I’m ready to compromise on physical appearance just yet. Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]

I’m not suggesting that you compromise anything, AC. Truly. Just noting that my experience has been different - as well as consistent across my life span to this point. If anything my SMV seems to have increased, I assume because women in shape to the degree I am are rarer past the twenties. Men seem more anxious to “lock it in,” perhaps because they’ve had experience with women who let themselves go. But there has never been a time when guys didn’t want to be in relationships with me, and I’m never the pursuer. Not for dates, not for relationships, not for next steps of any sort.

If I had to identify what it is men see in me I would choose the word “appealing.” Nice looking rather than beautiful, bright, sunny disposition with occasional flashes of temper, funny in an edgy/outrageous way, and adventurous. People like being around me. Because I can come off as prim, I think men like the contrast of my wild side, which is just under the surface. I surprise people, and they like that. I assume that’s where they find spark. Well, along with my body. I think I’m very lucky in “appealing.” Beautiful comes with all sorts of baggage.
[/quote]

What I think what you are experiencing is that your relative SMV is increasing.

There is no way to put this any less bluntly, but if your peers (that are on the market) slowly turn into entitled neurotic sluts or asexual mommies or are what can only be described as obese, well yeah, your relative market value rises.

Does not mean that it has risen in absolute terms, male sexual attraction follows female fertility and its decline with a brutal efficiency.

And yes, female beauty comes with baggage, some need several beta orbiters to carry it all around! [/quote]

I believe that what I am saying is that my experience suggests otherwise.

If you are only interested in only one quality (men seeking beauty, women seeking wealth) then your matrix holds true. If you are looking for a total package, it does not.

I think the wise seeker of a mate looks for someone they like, trust, AND feel passionate about. Shallow people look for one quality and then have to hope like hell that the person possessed of that particular quality isn’t a repugnant human being. I think if you went out ONLY with women who were 6s, you would find that a large percentage of them are also repugnant people. Because that’s just how people are. If I as a woman sought only middlin’ earning men, I’m sure the same would hold true. Most of them would NOT be kind, funny, or sexually attractive to me.

P.S. the “baggage” I mentioned coming with beauty would be the tendency of people in general to treat them differently or to be reserved around them. I know two truly beautiful women peripherally and both are sort of odd. Very quiet and awkward. The younger is in her very early 20s now. I’ve known her as a kid in my community since she was in early elementary school and even then she was mesmerizing. You just CANNOT stop looking at her. The other I worked with. Same thing. Hard not to stare. She’s a drug and alcohol counselor along with a clinical social worker and has struggled working with teens even with no makeup, ponytails, and glasses. Her beauty is a deficit because people have reactions that interfere with normal, relaxed interaction with her. Harder to make friends, harder to trust that men are interested in her as a person rather than as a trophy, etc. From my perspective it has similarities to being disabled in some way. People want to stare but it’s not polite so they look away, but that’s weird so they look back, but that’s awkward so they then excuse themselves altogether because it’s stressful.

Except the men who go in for the score, who don’t care one bit about them except as a commodity.

No thank you. Appealing and likable FTW.

90

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]
LOL

How old are you now, AC?

91

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
So glad I’m married!

That women stuff seems so very, very complicated…

I can still remember way back when simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect was a pretty good way to find a woman of similar caliber. [/quote]

I don’t know, because that “simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect” thing seems to be working a charm for me, even in modern days. I have someone well able to provide, who makes my toes curl and who is proving to be a very good friend indeed. I’d rather spend time with him than anyone else, though I enjoy my girlfriends and workmates too.

[/quote]

Do you think in this day and age, that a man in his 20’s would be able to exhibit the same traits? I highly doubt it. PEOPLE evolve (assuming a positive trajectory is established early enough). A man in his 20’s is LITERALLY “half” the man he will become in his 40’s - in personality, experience, assets, etc… His market value goes up exponentially.

A woman’s reproductive/market value goes DOWN as she gets older. Not saying there aren’t ANY “MILF’s” out there, but often times a woman who is in “decline” is at odds with how to deal with it and is often a bitter, castrating bitch. There are of course exceptions to this.

Integrity and self respect are important, but it’s not something that many people have at a younger age these days. Again, there are exceptions! But the pickings are slim.[/quote]

I don’t know what to say, AC, except that my experience has been very different from what you describe. I only date high earning men relative to my location. The only exception was the creepy hunter guy - a rebound from Tim, who was in local government here and who’d previously been on faculty at a US News top 25 college.

I only date fit men. Not buff, though the creepy hunter guy was that, but in decent shape and athletically inclined. Men who have a sport and practice it. Doesn’t matter what it is. Hockey could lose some weight, but he’s middle aged and can and does lead an active recreational life.

All the men I went out with were at the height of their earning power, age wise. I had at least two dates with a geologist, a financier (the smart guy I didn’t like kissing), a software designer, doctor, an architect, and Hockey, who is an engineer - all men who were in decent - very good shape.

I’m still bewildered by the crazy good luck I had. I’m certainly on the decline and am not beautiful. But here I am. I can only make of it that men don’t all want what you want. Well, clearly the ones who want me don’t.

Chushin reports that back in the olden days he had the same experience I had last year, and from the other side of the aisle (he’s a boy and was in his youth, presumably).

What do you make of that? I’m asking honestly. My experience has been so far removed from my expectation given all I’d read about women my age on these pages.

Edit: “I only date high earning men” sounds avaricious. I select for intelligence and earnings tend to follow. Money isn’t something I select for, though debt-free became important to me after Tim because I decided debt speaks to impulsiveness and poor self-control and I was sick of men with those issues.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve had women who “had things together” pursue me, but after a spending time with them, I didn’t find a “spark”… And for the most part, they were what I would call “average” physically and “OK” in the face, not head turners by any means. The pretty ones almost always seem to have issues. My ex was BEAUTIFUL. I mean she used to be a model in her country. Made good money in the fashion industry. But she believed in ghosts and was completely batshit crazy. Fun to fuck, though. But that Latin temper was legendary. I just got tired of dealing with her shit (and paying for her Gucci bags and $500 shoes that she only wore once).

I just don’t feel that I’m ready to compromise on physical appearance just yet. Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]

I’m not suggesting that you compromise anything, AC. Truly. Just noting that my experience has been different - as well as consistent across my life span to this point. If anything my SMV seems to have increased, I assume because women in shape to the degree I am are rarer past the twenties. Men seem more anxious to “lock it in,” perhaps because they’ve had experience with women who let themselves go. But there has never been a time when guys didn’t want to be in relationships with me, and I’m never the pursuer. Not for dates, not for relationships, not for next steps of any sort.

If I had to identify what it is men see in me I would choose the word “appealing.” Nice looking rather than beautiful, bright, sunny disposition with occasional flashes of temper, funny in an edgy/outrageous way, and adventurous. People like being around me. Because I can come off as prim, I think men like the contrast of my wild side, which is just under the surface. I surprise people, and they like that. I assume that’s where they find spark. Well, along with my body. I think I’m very lucky in “appealing.” Beautiful comes with all sorts of baggage.
[/quote]

What I think what you are experiencing is that your relative SMV is increasing.

There is no way to put this any less bluntly, but if your peers (that are on the market) slowly turn into entitled neurotic sluts or asexual mommies or are what can only be described as obese, well yeah, your relative market value rises.

Does not mean that it has risen in absolute terms, male sexual attraction follows female fertility and its decline with a brutal efficiency.

And yes, female beauty comes with baggage, some need several beta orbiters to carry it all around! [/quote]

I believe that what I am saying is that my experience suggests otherwise.

If you are only interested in only one quality (men seeking beauty, women seeking wealth) then your matrix holds true. If you are looking for a total package, it does not.

I think the wise seeker of a mate looks for someone they like, trust, AND feel passionate about. Shallow people look for one quality and then have to hope like hell that the person possessed of that particular quality isn’t a repugnant human being. I think if you went out ONLY with women who were 6s, you would find that a large percentage of them are also repugnant people. Because that’s just how people are. If I as a woman sought only middlin’ earning men, I’m sure the same would hold true. Most of them would NOT be kind, funny, or sexually attractive to me.

P.S. the “baggage” I mentioned coming with beauty would be the tendency of people in general to treat them differently or to be reserved around them. I know two truly beautiful women peripherally and both are sort of odd. Very quiet and awkward. The younger is in her very early 20s now. I’ve known her as a kid in my community since she was in early elementary school and even then she was mesmerizing. You just CANNOT stop looking at her. The other I worked with. Same thing. Hard not to stare. She’s a drug and alcohol counselor along with a clinical social worker and has struggled working with teens even with no makeup, ponytails, and glasses. Her beauty is a deficit because people have reactions that interfere with normal, relaxed interaction with her. Harder to make friends, harder to trust that men are interested in her as a person rather than as a trophy, etc. From my perspective it has similarities to being disabled in some way. People want to stare but it’s not polite so they look away, but that’s weird so they look back, but that’s awkward so they then excuse themselves altogether because it’s stressful.

Except the men who go in for the score, who don’t care one bit about them except as a commodity.

No thank you. Appealing and likable FTW.[/quote]

The most beautiful woman I’ve ever talked to was a solid 9+. She worked at a the grocery store down the street from my old place. Tall, blonde, perfect face and figure and about 23 years old at the time (I would have been 28). She looked ready to do a magazine layout while stocking shelves in her frumpy store uniform.

We would smile when we passed in the aisles and had maybe said “hi” on occasion but we had never spoken beyond that. I had overheard her in a few conversations with her co workers and she seemed to be funny, intelligent, engaging, practical and ambitious. The young lady had a lot going for her.

One night she approached me not-quite-cold in a convenience store where I was on an emergency donut run. If she looked good in ger uniform, she was devastating done up for a night out with her friends. She introduced herself and asked me if I shopped at “X” grocery store. I told her I did. She said she had seen me there and asked me wha I was doing that night. I stammered something about an emergency donut run and then said nothing into the pregnant pause where she was quite obviously waiting for me to enquire as to her plans for the evening which I am fairly certain would have resulted in an invitation to come with. Instead I made a somewhat less than gracious exit and fled into the night.

The problem was not that I was intimidated by her looks or her aggressive approach (although I was a touch taken aback). The problem was that this was about a month before my wedding and thus really unfortnate timing for this little encounter. At least I handled it with style, aplomb and dry-cool panache. Oh wait, nope, I made an idiot of myself.

Anyway the point is that she got this really exasparated look on her face like this was an ongoing problem for her. i.e. I’m sure she’s got guys coming at her all the time but her looks are actually a barrier for all but the extremely secure or the guys just out looking to score. I mean, she approached a nice, normal looking guy in a store lineup and he virtually ran away like his hair was on fire. WTF?!

I’m sure there are worse problems to have, but no doubt excessive good looks can bring challenges, even if you are on the right side of the hot/crazy index.

92

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]
LOL

How old are you now, AC?[/quote]

I was born in '74 - I’m 40 years old. And for the record, I HAVE dated plenty of women my age and older. But that’s not what I’m currently pursuing. If I were to meet an amazing woman, I don’t think her age would matter at all. But I haven’t met her yet.

96

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
So glad I’m married!

That women stuff seems so very, very complicated…

I can still remember way back when simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect was a pretty good way to find a woman of similar caliber. [/quote]

I don’t know, because that “simply being a person who acted with integrity and self-respect” thing seems to be working a charm for me, even in modern days. I have someone well able to provide, who makes my toes curl and who is proving to be a very good friend indeed. I’d rather spend time with him than anyone else, though I enjoy my girlfriends and workmates too.

[/quote]

Do you think in this day and age, that a man in his 20’s would be able to exhibit the same traits? I highly doubt it. PEOPLE evolve (assuming a positive trajectory is established early enough). A man in his 20’s is LITERALLY “half” the man he will become in his 40’s - in personality, experience, assets, etc… His market value goes up exponentially.

A woman’s reproductive/market value goes DOWN as she gets older. Not saying there aren’t ANY “MILF’s” out there, but often times a woman who is in “decline” is at odds with how to deal with it and is often a bitter, castrating bitch. There are of course exceptions to this.

Integrity and self respect are important, but it’s not something that many people have at a younger age these days. Again, there are exceptions! But the pickings are slim.[/quote]

I don’t know what to say, AC, except that my experience has been very different from what you describe. I only date high earning men relative to my location. The only exception was the creepy hunter guy - a rebound from Tim, who was in local government here and who’d previously been on faculty at a US News top 25 college.

I only date fit men. Not buff, though the creepy hunter guy was that, but in decent shape and athletically inclined. Men who have a sport and practice it. Doesn’t matter what it is. Hockey could lose some weight, but he’s middle aged and can and does lead an active recreational life.

All the men I went out with were at the height of their earning power, age wise. I had at least two dates with a geologist, a financier (the smart guy I didn’t like kissing), a software designer, doctor, an architect, and Hockey, who is an engineer - all men who were in decent - very good shape.

I’m still bewildered by the crazy good luck I had. I’m certainly on the decline and am not beautiful. But here I am. I can only make of it that men don’t all want what you want. Well, clearly the ones who want me don’t.

Chushin reports that back in the olden days he had the same experience I had last year, and from the other side of the aisle (he’s a boy and was in his youth, presumably).

What do you make of that? I’m asking honestly. My experience has been so far removed from my expectation given all I’d read about women my age on these pages.

Edit: “I only date high earning men” sounds avaricious. I select for intelligence and earnings tend to follow. Money isn’t something I select for, though debt-free became important to me after Tim because I decided debt speaks to impulsiveness and poor self-control and I was sick of men with those issues.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve had women who “had things together” pursue me, but after a spending time with them, I didn’t find a “spark”… And for the most part, they were what I would call “average” physically and “OK” in the face, not head turners by any means. The pretty ones almost always seem to have issues. My ex was BEAUTIFUL. I mean she used to be a model in her country. Made good money in the fashion industry. But she believed in ghosts and was completely batshit crazy. Fun to fuck, though. But that Latin temper was legendary. I just got tired of dealing with her shit (and paying for her Gucci bags and $500 shoes that she only wore once).

I just don’t feel that I’m ready to compromise on physical appearance just yet. Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]

I’m not suggesting that you compromise anything, AC. Truly. Just noting that my experience has been different - as well as consistent across my life span to this point. If anything my SMV seems to have increased, I assume because women in shape to the degree I am are rarer past the twenties. Men seem more anxious to “lock it in,” perhaps because they’ve had experience with women who let themselves go. But there has never been a time when guys didn’t want to be in relationships with me, and I’m never the pursuer. Not for dates, not for relationships, not for next steps of any sort.

If I had to identify what it is men see in me I would choose the word “appealing.” Nice looking rather than beautiful, bright, sunny disposition with occasional flashes of temper, funny in an edgy/outrageous way, and adventurous. People like being around me. Because I can come off as prim, I think men like the contrast of my wild side, which is just under the surface. I surprise people, and they like that. I assume that’s where they find spark. Well, along with my body. I think I’m very lucky in “appealing.” Beautiful comes with all sorts of baggage.
[/quote]

What I think what you are experiencing is that your relative SMV is increasing.

There is no way to put this any less bluntly, but if your peers (that are on the market) slowly turn into entitled neurotic sluts or asexual mommies or are what can only be described as obese, well yeah, your relative market value rises.

Does not mean that it has risen in absolute terms, male sexual attraction follows female fertility and its decline with a brutal efficiency.

And yes, female beauty comes with baggage, some need several beta orbiters to carry it all around! [/quote]

I believe that what I am saying is that my experience suggests otherwise.

If you are only interested in only one quality (men seeking beauty, women seeking wealth) then your matrix holds true. If you are looking for a total package, it does not.

I think the wise seeker of a mate looks for someone they like, trust, AND feel passionate about. Shallow people look for one quality and then have to hope like hell that the person possessed of that particular quality isn’t a repugnant human being. I think if you went out ONLY with women who were 6s, you would find that a large percentage of them are also repugnant people. Because that’s just how people are. If I as a woman sought only middlin’ earning men, I’m sure the same would hold true. Most of them would NOT be kind, funny, or sexually attractive to me.

P.S. the “baggage” I mentioned coming with beauty would be the tendency of people in general to treat them differently or to be reserved around them. I know two truly beautiful women peripherally and both are sort of odd. Very quiet and awkward. The younger is in her very early 20s now. I’ve known her as a kid in my community since she was in early elementary school and even then she was mesmerizing. You just CANNOT stop looking at her. The other I worked with. Same thing. Hard not to stare. She’s a drug and alcohol counselor along with a clinical social worker and has struggled working with teens even with no makeup, ponytails, and glasses. Her beauty is a deficit because people have reactions that interfere with normal, relaxed interaction with her. Harder to make friends, harder to trust that men are interested in her as a person rather than as a trophy, etc. From my perspective it has similarities to being disabled in some way. People want to stare but it’s not polite so they look away, but that’s weird so they look back, but that’s awkward so they then excuse themselves altogether because it’s stressful.

Except the men who go in for the score, who don’t care one bit about them except as a commodity.

No thank you. Appealing and likable FTW.[/quote]

The most beautiful woman I’ve ever talked to was a solid 9+. She worked at a the grocery store down the street from my old place. Tall, blonde, perfect face and figure and about 23 years old at the time (I would have been 28). She looked ready to do a magazine layout while stocking shelves in her frumpy store uniform.

We would smile when we passed in the aisles and had maybe said “hi” on occasion but we had never spoken beyond that. I had overheard her in a few conversations with her co workers and she seemed to be funny, intelligent, engaging, practical and ambitious. The young lady had a lot going for her.

One night she approached me not-quite-cold in a convenience store where I was on an emergency donut run. If she looked good in ger uniform, she was devastating done up for a night out with her friends. She introduced herself and asked me if I shopped at “X” grocery store. I told her I did. She said she had seen me there and asked me wha I was doing that night. I stammered something about an emergency donut run and then said nothing into the pregnant pause where she was quite obviously waiting for me to enquire as to her plans for the evening which I am fairly certain would have resulted in an invitation to come with. Instead I made a somewhat less than gracious exit and fled into the night.

The problem was not that I was intimidated by her looks or her aggressive approach (although I was a touch taken aback). The problem was that this was about a month before my wedding and thus really unfortnate timing for this little encounter. At least I handled it with style, aplomb and dry-cool panache. Oh wait, nope, I made an idiot of myself.

Anyway the point is that she got this really exasparated look on her face like this was an ongoing problem for her. i.e. I’m sure she’s got guys coming at her all the time but her looks are actually a barrier for all but the extremely secure or the guys just out looking to score. I mean, she approached a nice, normal looking guy in a store lineup and he virtually ran away like his hair was on fire. WTF?!

I’m sure there are worse problems to have, but no doubt excessive good looks can bring challenges, even if you are on the right side of the hot/crazy index.[/quote]

This right here is a prime example of why it is so important to approach beautiful women. Even if the first 50 times you make an ass of your self. (I sure did!). But approach 51 - 100 you actually begin to make LESS of an ass and might actually get her to laugh. Approaches 101 - 200 (which could take YEARS to complete unless you live in LA or Miami because of simple availability) go even better than that and you might actually start getting digits or even banging a few of them.

And once you have the balls to approach a BEAUTIFUL woman with confidence and ease, approaching “cute” and “attractive” women becomes easy. It’s kinda like benching 315. When you can do that, you can rep out with 225 which USED to pin you to the bench when you started. Same concept… Except that when MEN apply the principle to talking to WOMEN, you are creepy asshole who is fake and has no personality or else he wouldn’t be seeking help in this area (despite the fact the every fucking women’s magazine is essentially telling HER how to use the female equivalent of “game” to find, attract and keep men).

98

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]
LOL

How old are you now, AC?[/quote]

I was born in '74 - I’m 40 years old. And for the record, I HAVE dated plenty of women my age and older. But that’s not what I’m currently pursuing. If I were to meet an amazing woman, I don’t think her age would matter at all. But I haven’t met her yet.[/quote]

Does that not give you pause, given the massive number of women you’ve apparently known?
[/quote]

It should, because you should never discount the possibility that it might be you.

I certainly dont.

But you can also apply Greshams law to women, bad women drive good women out of the circulation, so beyond a certain age there is an abundance of bad women in the market.

99

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]
LOL

How old are you now, AC?[/quote]

I was born in '74 - I’m 40 years old. And for the record, I HAVE dated plenty of women my age and older. But that’s not what I’m currently pursuing. If I were to meet an amazing woman, I don’t think her age would matter at all. But I haven’t met her yet.[/quote]

Does that not give you pause, given the massive number of women you’ve apparently known?
[/quote]

No, not really. Most (as in percentage wise) of the women I’ve “known” in the biblical sense have been club sluts and party girls - not exactly wife material, but fun to hang out with. But there is a decent amount (around 30 or so, give or take) that had enough going on to where I could see possibilities. I married two of them and have two amazing sons as a result, so I have no regrets about that. Sure, I’m a little bitter about one of them, cuz the divorce cost me a small fortune, but I’ve recovered from that and am in good financial straights again. And actually, if I think about it, I was forced to liquidate many of my assets to split it with her right before the crash, so I probably would have lost my ass anyway, so it doesn’t keep me up at night or anything.

What gives me pause is the thought of settling with someone I’m not 100% sure about. And losing half my shit AT MY CURRENT AGE, with not enough time to recover to meet my retirement goals and lifestyle. Right now I’m on a very nice track to meet that. If I got married, and shit didn’t work out and I lost half my shit again, I’d survive, but I wouldn’t be retiring at age 56 and sailing around the world for ten years on a 48’ Hans Christian yacht, which is my current goal. I simply wouldn’t have enough time to recoup my losses AND retire early enough to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

Now that paradigm could shift if some of my other investments pan out - I actually have a VERY exciting venture that I became a part of last year that is finally showing some traction and has the potential to be HUGE. But until those checks are in the bank, it’s not something I can count on. If that pans out, it would shift the calculus of my risk analysis and aversion to settling down.

Basically, the main thing that keeps me single is the current laws that allow women to rape the shit out of men in no fault divorces. I am in the category right now where I would lose HUGE and it’s simply not a risk I’m willing to take. Why should I? Right now, I’m getting plenty of high quality, non pasteurized, grass fed milk for free, so why buy the cow?

100

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Maybe when I’m 55 I’ll consider a woman in her late 30’s, early 40’s to be what I’m looking for. But I don’t yet…
[/quote]
LOL

How old are you now, AC?[/quote]

I was born in '74 - I’m 40 years old. And for the record, I HAVE dated plenty of women my age and older. But that’s not what I’m currently pursuing. If I were to meet an amazing woman, I don’t think her age would matter at all. But I haven’t met her yet.[/quote]

Does that not give you pause, given the massive number of women you’ve apparently known?
[/quote]

It should, because you should never discount the possibility that it might be you.

I certainly dont.

But you can also apply Greshams law to women, bad women drive good women out of the circulation, so beyond a certain age there is an abundance of bad women in the market. [/quote]

Bad men sometimes drive good women back into the market and vice versa, just as AC is presumably a good man returned to the market, as Hockey and I seem to be.

Did I ever mention that he eschewed women completely for eight years? EIGHT. I am the beneficiary of his having come to terms with what happened to him in his marriage (“she stole my children!”) and deciding that women are individuals. I hope we’ve both made a good choice this time.