That may be true, but that’s a slam on them. Following a program is not learning, it’s staying in elementary school. Experiment, adapt, push. I would bet that for every person that got better gains by following the program, there is a person who suffered for following it as written, and they both would have been better off learning how to do their own training.
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add that to the list of advice that killed gains.
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You want gains, you need to know what works for you, and a program is cookie cutter and not meant to be the best for anyone, just okay for everyone. If you can’t write your own program, you stay on the hamster wheel with the other little guys.
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May as well just sack of school and the eduction system then.
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I’ll agree with @hardartery that creating your own program and finding what works for you is the best long term approach BUT I think that only applies if you’re mindful of your body/training and know how to push. A lot of newbies, especially those with no prior sports experience, could benefit from running programs as written
In conclusion, both following and not following a program as written are awful advice that will kill your gains
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Not sure what your point is, but from what I’ve seen of it that’s not a bad idea for capable parents. People need to learn to think, If all you can do is follow a cookie cutter program, it’s sad. One on one coaching from a capable coach should educate the person coached, and it will tailor the program to the individual. Following a prepackaged program just shows that someone can follow the directions. It doesn’t even ensure that he does what he (or she) should. What’s your 1RM? Are you sure? Is it really? Is that really RPE 8? If you can’t push yourself and do honest self-examination you’re screwed anyway. If you can figure out those things, there’s no reason you can’t figure out your own programming and make your own program.
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Sure, it means that they were spinning their wheels before. When you talk about tiny kids doing “800 reps and 900 sets”, those are the people NOT following a program. The people who come on here who are small and writing their own programs are the ones who don’t progress.
Once you’ve done some programs as written, then you can explore your capabilities and make tweaks, like anyone experienced does. But labeling following programs as written as “the worst advice” on here seems strange.
@Frank_C got his best gains running SGSS all the way through as written
@samul did a year of 5/3/1 and made some of the most impressive and steady gains I’ve seen
@digity spent years spinning his wheels and is seeing awesome gains running a program as written
@tlgains spent time spinning his wheels and is seeing awesome gains running a program as written
I ran BTM, and then deep water as written and saw the best gains of my life.
There are others that I’m forgetting, but I definitely see more positives from that than negatives, and it’s the only way to determine the true effectiveness of a program. The tweaks should come after, and overthinking causes more stagnation than underthinking, IMO.
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I would venture that most beginners would be best-served by running a number of programs, exactly as written, and seeing how they respond to each. For example: If they wanted to make TNation their lifting ‘home’ they could run a Thib program, a Wendler, a Meadows, a Carter, and even a Darden. Once they’ve completed these, they would be in an excellent position to ascertain what works best for them, and create their own program accordingly.
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Sebastian Burns otherwise known as @hardartery
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The only key to a succesful program is working the target muscles enough to trigger the desired response, while allowing sufficient recovery. That’s it. That is the actual goal of EVERY program. HIT, WSBB/Conjugate, Deep Water, 5/3/1, Hepburn, and on and on. Period. If someone needs a cookie cutter for that, what were they doing before? The only bad advice is to keep doing the thing that doesn’t produce results. That’s it.
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I am the guy in the avatar, and my name is Tim, should anyone care. I do not know Sebastian Burns, and have never heard of him before today (That I recall). The pic is from a contest in NY, and the Axle has 285lbs on it. I got three reps, Clean and Press each rep, on a difficult implement and beat a lot of guys (Pros included) on my weak event. I hope that’s enough detail for you.
It’s a joke Timmy
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So lets say you want a suit but you have never worn one before. You have no idea what would look good.
Do you A…try on a few different styles and see if any fit well. If there is one you like but needs a few adjustments you then get it tailored.
Or B…get some thread and some fabric despite having no clue what you are doing. Fuck the hamster wheel.
I don’t disagree with the end goal of your advice, but 90% of people can’t get there alone.
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Okay. Hard to tell from the written.
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I’m not saying new guys don’t need help. I’m saying “Follow a program” is bad advice. Do a program and figure out what works, sure. Experiment. Watch what the big guys are doing and talk to them. Don’t do what they do, necessarily, but learn something. Simply following a program is usally a fail. Especially considering how many people will pick a stupid one, like the ones they used to publish in the magazines in the 80’s.
I would say, straight up, I think most programs suck, and are simply there for the lazy. Some are outright detrimental (HIT comes to mind), and none of them engage your mind in the process. Dorian Yates didn’t actually do HIT, he tore down the muscles and gave them enough time to recover. So did Ronnie Coleman. I guarantee their notebooks show wildly different programs. It’s not the program.
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I think, as you said, they were staying on the hamster wheel. Like @kd13 is saying, nobody is saying you have to follow programs, but it is a good idea for new guys who don’t know how to program yet, to follow some stuff and see what works. We learn our bodies more than a coach who wrote a program will know them, but when you’re starting off, as long as you choose a decent program, the person who wrote it knows more about lifting than you did, and deliberately wrote it that way.
It’s also a lot to say that you can’t learn anything from following a program. If you keep doing the same programs, you’ll stop learning, but I have learnt something every time I have done a new program - even if it is just learning what DOESN’T work for me - and I have used that knowledge when I write my own programs.
However, I do respect your opinion on the matter - I know you’re strong and experienced. I’m probably taking issue because I have personally recommended people who are constantly tweaking things and not seeing progress to just do what’s written and evaluate afterwards.
If you personally have had your gains killed by following a program verbatim, I can’t argue with that.
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Program ADD is bad, for sure. They need patience - which no one seems to have. I read lots of programs, and try some stuff out. We should never stop learning. I agree that new guys (And some older ones) need to be told to stick with things long enough to give them a fair chance. They won’t, but they should hear it. They should also be writing down what happened, so that they can look back and evalute fairly. How it was and how you remember can be different, IME.
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This is 100%, if your previous posts were worded like this I wouldn’t have batted an eye,lol.
This is also why I think sometimes just doing a programme as written can be beneficial for more experienced people too. Can force you to get out of a rut and try something that maybe you instinctively dismiss.
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I absolutely tirade about this one at work 
. My gym is full of teenage boys chanting “the wider you go, the wider you grow.” Incidentally, no one has big lats 
.
In my opinion, the worst pieces of advice are fear-mongering about injury.
Getting injured is pretty hard if you load appropriately. Moreover, exposing the body to “dangerous” positions is nothing but an excellent way to build tissue resiliency.
Now, that doesn’t mean train through painful movements. It means do all the “risky” exercises you want, and assess as you go.
I hope all of Jeff Cavalier’s followers enjoy not training their lateral delts because they refuse to internally rotate the shoulder.
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