Advice on Training Program, Still Weak

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Hopefully the thread title got your attention.
Basic background information is that I entered the gym in Jan 2012 at 5ft11 124lbs super skinny 12inch arms flexed etc. Currently I am 6ft 1 190lbs, made size and strength gains at a similar body fat percentage now - not posting pictures yet as they are not needed.

Current 1RMS :
Squat - 110kg Same as Deadlift
Bench - 95kg
Deadlift - 125kg/275lbs Poor progression due to never mastering form despite my feeling that I know how to deadlift, form critic future thread.
Overhead Press - 60kg/135lbs

Currently doing 5/3/1 although I saw little progress on Squat/Deadlifts. Saw decent OHP progress that’s about it.

Question : I am needing advice on the programme I should be on at this stage despite being in my “third training year” clearly with these numbers the previous years have not been good in terms of strength progression due to various factors (knowledge, training routine etc.)

From internet research I am leaning towards full body workouts focussed on strength training perhaps ICF (Ice Cream Fitness) “Novice” programme, I didn’t know if I am classified as a novice. I feel I need to increase squat frequency to progress so need advice on what route with regards to training.

Thank you very much for reading and all advice is greatly appreciated, wanted to make my first post here as I thought I would get some great advice here with no bodybuilding forum trolls.

2

5/3/1, whatever variation tickle your fancy. Just get the book and go nuts.

you are seeing little progress because: You are not following the program OR you are not following the program.

If you want to change, that is fine. But you will get the same progress, until you fix your mentality.

Go hard and push it.

3

IMO, icf 5x5 is one of the best size and strength routines for novices. your probably not a novice anymore, but i think you could probably progress a little bit more on a linear progression routine. I would try ICF until you can’t progress anymore, then hop on an intermediate program that fits your goals

4

5/3/1 didn’t work well for me, I’ve tried it a few times over the years. Still, there are very good principles I have taken from Wendler’s writing.

In my opinion, the only way to get good at squatting, is to squat a lot. I’ve squatted up to five times a week at some points and I never squat less than twice a week.

Look at Madcow and some of the advanced 5x5 routines. Beyond that look into periodization, super cycles, and high volume training. I am also a big fan of upper/lower splits varying the intensity over the training cycle. All have helped me tremendously. Also, focusing on ONE lift at a time for a training cycle (say 6-12 weeks) can help you master it more efficiently. I understand that isn’t for everybody though.

Just my opinions, of course.

5

Thanks for the replies, I will consider all of them. 5/3/1 I progressed on the bench and OHP not the squat and deadlift. What I have done is changed the program to where each day I start with 5/3/1 on one of the big 4 then the rest of the workout turns into a split so chest and biceps after bench, legs after swuat. Could this effect progression on 5/3/1 ? Would a minimal assist routine straight out of the book be better for progression. Regarding attitude change I agree I need to change my attitude towards squats and deadlifts. More opinions appreciated.

6

You have gained 70 lbs since you started and can comfortably bench your current bodyweight. Your squat and deadlift need work; still, I wouldn’t call that bad progress at all. What you need to figure out is what you respond to; volume, frequency, intensity? Then pick a program and run it consistently.

7

Appreciate all the replies, and more would be great. I own 5/3/1 the book and currently do 5/3/1 but after the first movement, 1 of the big 4 I would change into a split-like workout, for example chest and biceps exercises after bench. Legs after Squat etc. Could this effect my strength progression and would I be better picking a template from the book and sticking with that for 5/3/1?

I saw progress for OHP and Bench in 5/3/1 just little Squat and Deadlift, of course I was clearly doing something wrong. The main issue still arises that into my third year of “lifting weights” I am unable to Bench 2 plates, Squat 3, Deadlift 3(let alone 4), although I am going to bench 2 plates in the next week or so.

JFG I don’t understand what you mean by “fix by mentality”. I own the 5/3/1 book so if you could clear up what you mean by this I would appreciate it.

Thanks everyone for your replies and more appreciated

8

^agreed. This seems more of a techinique issue than anything else.

Choose a program or a modification of your current program that allows you to train the squat and deadlift multiple days a week at varying intensities to develope better technique.

9

Sry i was agreeing with nighthawkz. You post didn’t show until after i posted, OP.

10

I agree, I am going to keep the 5/3/1 1 day a week for OHP which is progressing and for bench press, if bench isn’t progressing then I can change it up. Squat and Deadlift 2x week at different intensity, just need to post a deadlift form check now. Thanks everyone for your comments. I think it is amazing to get such great support here.

11

[quote]BSCStevo wrote:
Appreciate all the replies, and more would be great. I own 5/3/1 the book and currently do 5/3/1 but after the first movement, 1 of the big 4 I would change into a split-like workout, for example chest and biceps exercises after bench. Legs after Squat etc. Could this effect my strength progression and would I be better picking a template from the book and sticking with that for 5/3/1?

I saw progress for OHP and Bench in 5/3/1 just little Squat and Deadlift, of course I was clearly doing something wrong. The main issue still arises that into my third year of “lifting weights” I am unable to Bench 2 plates, Squat 3, Deadlift 3(let alone 4), although I am going to bench 2 plates in the next week or so.

JFG I don’t understand what you mean by “fix by mentality”. I own the 5/3/1 book so if you could clear up what you mean by this I would appreciate it.

Thanks everyone for your replies and more appreciated[/quote]

For the the 5/3/1 part. It seems that you are combining two programs in one. That can only spell disaster in the long term. Following one of the templates provided should have been your first line of defence.

For the mentality part. It was mentioned above that “5/3/1 didn’t work for me”. That is the mental part. Well designed programs work. Period. Do not blame or “morph” the program. Change your mentality or change the program. Maybe a John M style of program would be better for you. Or CT’s. Enjoy your time in the gym. Don’t fight the program.

12

[quote]BSCStevo wrote:
I agree, I am going to keep the 5/3/1 1 day a week for OHP which is progressing and for bench press, if bench isn’t progressing then I can change it up. Squat and Deadlift 2x week at different intensity, just need to post a deadlift form check now. Thanks everyone for your comments. I think it is amazing to get such great support here.[/quote]

Well, niceness aside, the suggestions we gave are based on the assumption that you are being objective about your bodycomp. :slight_smile:

I would suggest you also post a vid of your squat form.

13

Taken both comments on board.

Thanks

14

I was in a similar situation to you when I first got going.

I had a full year and a half of training experience, but had no idea what I was doing in the gym. My squat and deadlift were basically the same as yours, and. I was worried I had missied out on my opportunity for newbie gains. Luckily for me, a local powerlifter helped put me on the right track by helping me get a set template and emphasize compound movement.

He had me starting off with 95 lbs on the bar (~45% of my 1 RM at the time), and had me do 5x5 Mon/Wed/Fri, adding 5 lbs to the bar each time. It was basically Stronglifts/Starting Strength in that regard. The difference this time was he made me switch from squatting parallel to squatting ass to grass. The other adjustment that occurred was I started treating every single rep like a speed squat with an extremely explosive burst out of the hole. By stepping back, I was able to set myself up for future success by using a larger ranger of motion, learn to lift explosively, and gain confidence under the bar.

I highly recommend you do the same. I was able to stick with that program for 3 months, milk it, and came out of it with a 295 ATG front squat and a 425 deadlift. I did no deadlifting during it, just focused on my front squat squat.

So it looked like this:

Monday
Front Squat 5x5 (start with 45%)
Upper Body exercises (just stick with what’s working for you
Ab roller 3x10-15
Farmer’s walk 3x30 yards (supersetted with ab roller)

Wednesday
Front Squat 5x5 (45% + 5 lbs)
Upper body exercises
Ab roller 3x10-15

Friday
Front Squat (45% + 10 lbs)
Upper body exercises
Ab roller 3x10-15
Farmer’s walk 3x30 yards (supersetted with ab roller)

That is how I got myself out of the situation you are in. Made me a much better lifter, and much more explosive athlete. 1 step back, two steps forward.

15

Thanks for the reply 93mph. That’s the thing my hometown in the UK is relatively small with no huge gyms with no poweracks so serious powerlifters I rarely if at all see to pick their brains.

Yeah I did SS then went into 5/3/1 albeit the first year I didn’t know what I was doing on SS. Your suggestion interests me, I am going to start a new program/routine on Monday so have the weekend to plan out my training.Why the front squat though over the back squat and why ATG? Nevertheless it definitely would allow form work and explosiveness as you mention. Then I could do 5/3/1 for bench and OHP with a 5/3/1 accessory work.

You did no deadlifting but it went up by over 100lbs as well?
% of your 1RM on the Front squat?
What did your upper body work look like?
You add 5lbs Wednesday then another 10lbs Friday?

I have found what works for me at the moment for OHP progression regarding frequency and rep scheme for progression, need to work out and attack the other big 3 now. If you could add some more information to my questions about your post I would appreciate it.

Cheers.

16

Why the front squat though over the back squat?
I’m a baseball player so I avoid anything that puts my shoulder in a vulnerable position (back squatting). Although I feel the front squat is more athletic and carries over to other lifts extremely well. If you can front squat 315, there is a good chance you can back squat 365. If you can back squat 365, that doesn’t mean you can front squat 315. That tells me that front squat has better carryover, especially for a beginner.

and why ATG?
Once again, I’m an athlete. For me it isn’t a competition to see who can total the highest at a meet, it is about getting as strong as possible in that full range of motion that way I can throw 90+ MPH off a mound. If you can ATG 275, you won’t have any problem going to parallel with 315. It just depends on your goals, your health, and hip mobility.

You did no deadlifting but it went up by over 100lbs as well?
Yes, best assistance for deadlifting (besides deadlifting) is squatting. This where where ATG came in, it strengthened my hamstrings and glutes-two very important groups for deadlifting as well. Once you get past parallel, good things start happening. Before I started that program, the highest I ever deadlifted was 225, and I really had no clue what I was doing. After about 3 months of it, I deadlifted for first time and hit 405. After a month of working on technique, I pulled a very easy 425. This is where the explosiveness really paid off, being able to apply a ton of force into the ground really quick made the deadlifts feel very smooth, never had a grinding rep.

% of your 1RM on the Front squat?
For most people, I think Front squat is around 75% of back squat. Then start with 40-45% of that number, squat 3x a week, and slowly dd weight each time.

What did your upper body work look like?
Being a baseball player means a lot of major changes in upper body stuff protecting shoulder and focusing on deceleration muscles. I had a 3:1 pull to push ratio with lots of rows, chins, face pulls, reverse Flyes. Only pushing I did was push-ups and some unilateral dumbbell bench pressing with a neutral grip. Having the developed back likely helped a lot with deadlift.

You add 5lbs Wednesday then another 10lbs Friday?
For example, my first two weeks looked like
Monday: 5x5 with 95 lbs.
Wednesday: 5x5 with 100 lbs.
Friday:5x5 with 105 lbs.
Monday:5x5 with 110 lbs.
Wednesday:5x5 with 115 lbs.
Friday:5x5 with 120 lbs.

17

Thanks for the clarification man I like it.